Author Topic: Any love for BC&SL?  (Read 11019 times)

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Offline npiazza91

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Any love for BC&SL?
« on: June 19, 2014, 04:17:10 PM »
Hey guys, I'm new to this forum.  Been looking for a while, but I finally decided to create an account here.  I'm eager to make a top 50, but it's so much harder for DT than it is for Megadeth or Maiden (my other favorite bands).  I got into DT a few years ago when I bought Images and Words on a whim.  Since then I've collected every album except for FII and WD&DU.  I've listened to both.  FII isn't bad, but probably in my bottom half and WD&DU is probably my least favorite.  It's just not the same without Labrie and sounds a bit like something Genesis would do.  Just not my cup of tea.

Anyway, here's how I rank the albums.  Just a little taste of what's to come when I make my top 50 list.  Obviously, I'm more of a metal guy, but I love the emotion put into DT's songs.  If it sounds like I'm being a bit harsh on them, I'm not.  I love every album except for the bottom few.  I can't compare anything to DT, because their music is so magical to me.  Every album holds something special in my heart (well, almost every album  ;))

1. Black Clouds and Silver Linings (not the most consistent but a dark, beautiful album that imo hasn't been matched.)
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (about on par w/ #1, but this one has a lighter tone.)
3. Awake (starts off kind of weak, but second half is some of the best work they have ever done)
4. Scenes From a Memory (consistently good, but almost overly so.  not many "amazing" tracks on here)
5. Train of Thought (very dark and gritty, most of it works, but not all)
6. Octavarium (some of it is too "commercialized" for me, but a few amazing tracks make this album much better)
7. A Dramatic Turn of Events (definitely a grower.  some very good stuff on here, but some filler as well.  still growing on me)
8. Images and Words (the album that made me fall in love with DT, but it's a bit overrated, only about half of which I love)
9. Dream Theater (still growing on me, but some songs I really like on here.  it still hasn't sank in yet, but it seems ok so far)
10. Systematic Chaos (a few great songs on here, but most of it is hit or miss.  not much really stands out for me)
11. Falling into Infinity (like I said, I still have to keep listening to this one.  I won't make my top 50 until this one sinks in)
12. When Dream and Day Unite (not my kind of music.  I do like Fortune in Lies, though, but that's about it)

Well there it is.  The new album and FII still have to sink in a little more for me, but besides that, I'll start making my list, rearranging things as necessary.  The list is so hard to make, because most DT songs have their own kind of magic that can't really be compared to each other.  I was wondering, why not much love for BC&SL?  I constantly see people bashing on it, or putting it in their bottom albums.

Nice to meet you all DT fans!

Offline cramx3

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2014, 04:22:56 PM »
I love BC&SL, not my favorite, but definitely in my top half of DT albums.  You are not alone in loving in (maybe one of the few who things it is their best though).  :metal

Offline Tick

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2014, 04:31:47 PM »
Not in the same league as the last 2 albums for me but I like it.

For me ANTR and TCOT are legendary tracks, while TSF and TBOT are just average.

Overall its bottom tier DT for me, BUT I love all DT so bottom tier is not that big a slight.

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Offline Hanz Gropenfondel

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2014, 04:32:32 PM »
I definitely have love for BC&SL!
Unfortunately, my opinion can't be counted because I'm way too biased.
I literally love every single DT song.
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Offline jonny108

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2014, 04:40:19 PM »
I do enjoy BC&SL. It's very nostalgic for me although I'm not a big fan of most of the songs.  Count is by far the best song, closely followed by Nightmare.  AROP, TBOT and TSF are rather weak songs however.  TBOT has some cool moments but I do get bored rather quick, plus I really hate the bass sound on this record. Nasty, muddy and distorted to fuck when it didn't need to be.

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2014, 05:05:22 PM »
There were things about BC&SL that I liked and loved, and I saw it as a step-up from their previous album, but there were parts I was a bit luke-warm to at first. I did, however, listen to it a LOT when it was new. I think I spun it more than 8VM and SC when they were new. As a progger who loves epics and long songs, the whole album intrigued me with its longer tracks and the closing epic, which was unlike their previous ones.

I still spin it with fondness every now and then, just as much as any of their RoadRunner albums. Actually, I probably spin it more than either SDOIT, TOT or 8VM as far as whole albums go these days.

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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2014, 05:06:55 PM »
As I think it's been discussed here before, I like portions of BC&SL but it's a hard album to spin often because there are weak spots and I often find myself listening to the first song and then skipping all the way to the last.

I don't find it to be a bad album I just find it to be a more inconsistently good album than most of the rest of the bands catalog.

Offline son_ov_hades

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2014, 05:18:38 PM »
Black Clouds for me is only beaten by Train Of Thought for the worst Dream Theater album. They're both just pretty damn boring in my opinion and I rarely ever listen to them. Also, we can never be friends for putting Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite at the bottom.  :P
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Offline npiazza91

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2014, 05:30:18 PM »
Black Clouds for me is only beaten by Train Of Thought for the worst Dream Theater album. They're both just pretty damn boring in my opinion and I rarely ever listen to them. Also, we can never be friends for putting Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite at the bottom.  :P

As far as ToT goes, I really like the dark energy in some of the songs.  If you look past the "heavyness" of it, the song writing is actually really good.  The only reason why FII is at the bottom is because I haven't listened to it enough.  It'll probably go up a bit though.  WD&DU though...agree to disagree haha

Offline PixelDream

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2014, 06:06:21 PM »
Not that much into BC&SL anymore, but when it came out it really made me enthousiastic. SC ultimately felt like a step back but BC&SL showed a lot of promise, almost like a return to form. I still think it's better than ADTOE and DT12.

That said, the songs on it do rock, but there are definitely some song arrangement problem, as in songs not flowing very well, weird transitions. The MP rap in ANTR is a good example of that. Apart from that, ANTR and TCOT contain the DT magic as far as I'm concerned.
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Offline Grizz

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2014, 06:44:03 PM »
It kicks ass.
Except bebot.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2014, 06:53:38 PM »
Can't say I've ever seen anyone rank BCSL as their favorite.  Mediocre (by DT standards) at best.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2014, 06:58:46 PM »
I guess I'll do mine too... Sorry to say, I must disagree about Black Clouds!

-Images and Words (wut can I say, this is easily the best)
-Six Degrees (it's a bit long, but still the best "modern" DT)
-Awake (stalls a bit toward the end, but it's still great other than the really heavy parts)
-A Dramatic Turn (really surprised by how good this record is - I just wish the lyrics were better and that it was better sounding)
-Falling into Infinty (not great, but there are some of the highest highs in the discography on this one)
-Octavarium (see above)
-Scenes (gotta be honest, this one is a bit overrated. Some great stuff but I just can't handle the lyrics on most of the songs. Still "good".)
-Train of Thought (fun, but I liked it better when it was *the* heavy record, instead of one of many)
-Systematic Chaos (patchy but fun)
-Dream Theater (not much here interests me, feels like a band resting on their laurels. I wouldn't call it bad but it's missing a spark the others have)
-When Dream and Day Unite (singer is beyond bad, lyrics are band, but at least there is a fire here. It stills has "the spark")
-Black Clouds (and here, the lyrics are bad, and the band just sound tired)

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2014, 07:29:22 PM »
It kicks ass.
Except bebot.

The Bebot is one of the reasons why it kicks ass. :P

But yeah, I love BC&SL. It might almost be my number 1 album but it's probably tied with like 4 others.  :lol

Also, to the original poster. I kind of like BC&SL for the same reasons I like WDADU. Fairly long songs with interesting arragementments that take you a while to dig into. Due to the nature of these songs there's normally something new to notice or discover with each listen. If there's anything that's a grower it's WDADU. Once I got over the fact that it wasn't James, I spun it a lot more often and eventually realised it's genius. ;)

Offline fadetoblackdude7

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2014, 07:33:02 PM »
I love BC&SL, it is dark and beautiful.....trumps SC imo.

Offline Grizz

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2014, 07:56:22 PM »
It kicks ass.
Except bebot.

The Bebot is one of the reasons why it kicks ass. :P

But yeah, I love BC&SL. It might almost be my number 1 album but it's probably tied with like 4 others.  :lol

Also, to the original poster. I kind of like BC&SL for the same reasons I like WDADU. Fairly long songs with interesting arragementments that take you a while to dig into. Due to the nature of these songs there's normally something new to notice or discover with each listen. If there's anything that's a grower it's WDADU. Once I got over the fact that it wasn't James, I spun it a lot more often and eventually realised it's genius. ;)
This is probably why I vastly prefer it to DTXII. Black Clouds is like a nacho plate. Overly complex, some parts have too much cheese, others too much meat, and you really have to dig to find the good stuff. But dayum the good stuff is good. DTXII is simple, like an apple. Tasty and healthy but BORING.
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Offline Scorpion

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2014, 08:10:27 PM »
I like BC&SL, but I think the main problem here is the song length, and the fact that many of the songs are longer than I think they need to be, making it very rare for me to listen to them, even though I enjoy parts of every song. The Best of Times is the best example - the outro solo is amazing, but I almost never want to sit through the ten minutes preceding them to get to it, because they are nowhere near as awesome as that solo. Same with A Rite of Passage - I actually like the solo section and the choruses a lot, but the rest of the song drags it down. Really, the only songs that I enjoy front-to-back on that album are Wither and The Count of Tuscany, and they are the only ones that I play with any regularity.
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Offline npiazza91

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2014, 08:12:29 PM »
It kicks ass.
Except bebot.

The Bebot is one of the reasons why it kicks ass. :P

But yeah, I love BC&SL. It might almost be my number 1 album but it's probably tied with like 4 others.  :lol

Also, to the original poster. I kind of like BC&SL for the same reasons I like WDADU. Fairly long songs with interesting arragementments that take you a while to dig into. Due to the nature of these songs there's normally something new to notice or discover with each listen. If there's anything that's a grower it's WDADU. Once I got over the fact that it wasn't James, I spun it a lot more often and eventually realised it's genius. ;)
This is probably why I vastly prefer it to DTXII. Black Clouds is like a nacho plate. Overly complex, some parts have too much cheese, others too much meat, and you really have to dig to find the good stuff. But dayum the good stuff is good. DTXII is simple, like an apple. Tasty and healthy but BORING.

Exactly!  The new album is good but I feel like there's nothing much too it except for IT, which isn't even that good when compared to Octavarium.  I'll desribe what I really like in this album when I do my top 50, but there's just so much meat here and, yes, while some of the sections can get boring, the album, when taken as a whole, is much better than looking at each song separately.  Kind of like Six Degrees (the song) for me.  I love long songs, when done right, and this album does it right.

Offline manticore999

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2014, 08:49:47 PM »
For me, BC&SL was a completely un-likeable album.  There wan't one good song on it, however it had the dubious distinction of having one of the worst songs I've ever head in my life - TCOT.  A true comedy - horrible lyrics, repetitive, boring music and if it wasn't bad enough to be funny it would make me cry.  Anyway, with ADTOE I breathed a sigh of relief, as it seemed they found their way back again!

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2014, 12:39:40 AM »
it had the dubious distinction of having one of the worst songs I've ever head in my life - TCOT.  A true comedy - horrible lyrics, repetitive, boring music and if it wasn't bad enough to be funny it would make me cry.

 :lol

To the OP:

You'll probably be pleasantly surprised/amused by the general forum consensus regarding BC&SL. Most put in in the lower-tier of DT albums, myself included. And I like the album. I might not call it "great", but there are moments where DT compose some of the best stuff they've ever done here and there (ex: the a good portion of TCOT and the ending solo in TBOT). But overall, it feels very weak by DT standards and radically inconsistent.

But you know what? Who gives a fuck. It's important to not let forum consensus alter your own opinion on the album. Listen to it, make you own opinion of it, and love it if you feel that way about it. You just might get a couple of strange looks is all. :lol

Regarding the new album, honestly it's the best they've done since ToT. They really outdid themselves. It seems the forum consensus on it has changed from "it's meh" on release, to "it's great!", then back to "it's meh". Oh well.  :hat It's oddly enough the most interesting to listen to of their most recent releases, ADTOE coming somewhat close.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2014, 01:10:28 AM »
I loved BCASL when it came out, and I still like it, but it's one of my least favourites. I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than the albums that came after it though.

TCOT is musically one of the best things they've ever done, and I don't mind the quirky lyrics either! It's just the vocal delivery that brings it down a bit for me, but musically it has so many high points.
I still love ANTR, I've always liked AROP and Wither too. It's only TBOT and TSF that I never much loved.
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Offline Sycsa

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2014, 03:27:16 AM »
Out of all DT albums, FII took the longest time to grow on me by far. I actually remember having Trial of Tears on my skiplist for a while and now it's in my top 10. That album is definitely a worthy investment, keep at it.


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Offline cramx3

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2014, 03:29:11 AM »
I dont care for the "poor" lyrics to ACOT.  The music is beautiful and the lyrics while not great, dont ruin the song for me in anyway.

Offline The Holy Tune

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2014, 03:43:33 AM »
I guess I like BC&SL pretty much. TCOT (even though I think it's VERY overrated), TSF (which is my fav of that album), AROP and ANTR are very badass songs. They contain some of the best harsh melodies in their whole discography and feels darker and heavier than TOT to me. TBOT and Wither give you some time to relax which I think is lovely and TBOT has one of the best solos JP has ever made in his life. So, I guess the album is more than worth listening to. It can be adorable from time to time.

Offline Tick

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2014, 08:04:33 AM »
I guess I'll do mine too... Sorry to say, I must disagree about Black Clouds!

-Images and Words (wut can I say, this is easily the best)
-Six Degrees (it's a bit long, but still the best "modern" DT)
-Awake (stalls a bit toward the end, but it's still great other than the really heavy parts)
-A Dramatic Turn (really surprised by how good this record is - I just wish the lyrics were better and that it was better sounding)
-Falling into Infinty (not great, but there are some of the highest highs in the discography on this one)
-Octavarium (see above)
-Scenes (gotta be honest, this one is a bit overrated. Some great stuff but I just can't handle the lyrics on most of the songs. Still "good".)
-Train of Thought (fun, but I liked it better when it was *the* heavy record, instead of one of many)
-Systematic Chaos (patchy but fun)
-Dream Theater (not much here interests me, feels like a band resting on their laurels. I wouldn't call it bad but it's missing a spark the others have)
-When Dream and Day Unite (singer is beyond bad, lyrics are band, but at least there is a fire here. It stills has "the spark")
-Black Clouds (and here, the lyrics are bad, and the band just sound tired)

Dream Theater is a  band resting on there laurels?
I think its the band not doing the same old thing and changing things up by crafting a new sound. I think BC&SL was stale in that respect. The new album sounds fresh and different and that's a good thing.

That's how Rush has stayed relevant for 40 years. Just sayin...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 12:17:06 PM by Tick »
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Offline emtee

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2014, 08:17:43 AM »
I really like it. One of my favorite JR albums.

Offline 425

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2014, 09:17:27 AM »
It's one of my very favorites, actually. Nothing beats Images and Words for me, but it's right up in the upper echelon where I also keep Awake, Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events. It's probably my #2 or #3.

What I like about Black Clouds & Silver Linings—and this is why I will never get the accusation that DT was getting stale or writing music on autopilot at this time—is that it really strives to create an atmosphere across the whole album that is distinct from that of other Dream Theater albums. People fawn on Awake for being atmospheric, and it undoubtedly is, but BCSL is just as atmospheric, if not more. The great thing about it is that the title of the album is the perfect descriptor for the atmosphere, too. The whole "dark-but-not-irredeemably-dark" vibe is actually rather gorgeous and pervades the album, especially A Nightmare to Remember, A Rite of Passage and The Count of Tuscany (which is not to say that the other songs don't adhere to this). And the album is of incredible quality. There is not a bad song on here. The Best of Times is my least favorite because it feels a little too long, but it's still excellent, and I don't know what could or should be removed from it anyway. All the rest of the songs are criminally underrated themselves. The Count of Tuscany is one of the very best songs Dream Theater ever wrote—I only rank it behind Breaking All Illusions and Octavarium. A Nightmare to Remember is also easily top ten material. The Shattered Fortress is my second favorite Twelve-Step Suite song behind This Dying Soul. Wither is one of the band's best ballads, and A Rite of Passage is actually an excellent song, in contrast to its popular perception.
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Offline Polarbear

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2014, 09:49:57 AM »
BC&SL is overall very good!! And yeah, Wither is the bands best ballad along with Space Dye Vest..

Offline Zook

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2014, 09:51:59 AM »
TCOT and TSF are great, and Wither is OK, but the rest can sit on a tack.

Offline Dreamer

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2014, 11:19:13 AM »
Apart from the debut, its the only DT album that I bought and then sold again... A very weak album to my ears.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2014, 12:24:54 PM »
Black Clouds is one of their better albums, musically.   I'd put it somewhere in the top half of their catalog.


With that said, I think they got a bit lost in the woods in terms of both music and lyrics for the last few albums with Portnoy, and BC&SL, despite being a musically solid album, suffers from some of the least interesting lyrics the band have ever produced.   My hunch is that Mike was pressuring Dream Theater in a direction that only he, himself really wanted to take it in.  As a result we got things like "Inspiration Corner" and albums about "Dark Master" and OCD.  We also got gems like "Day after day, and night after night...etc...etc....rawrrrrrrrr" and who can forget "mah bruthah!!"


 :lol


So, anyway, welcome to the forum.

Offline Tick

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2014, 12:27:04 PM »
Black Clouds is one of their better albums, musically.   I'd put it somewhere in the top half of their catalog.


With that said, I think they got a bit lost in the woods in terms of both music and lyrics for the last few albums with Portnoy, and BC&SL, despite being a musically solid album, suffers from some of the least interesting lyrics the band have ever produced.   My hunch is that Mike was pressuring Dream Theater in a direction that only he, himself really wanted to take it in.  As a result we got things like "Inspiration Corner" and albums about "Dark Master" and OCD.  We also got gems like "Day after day, and night after night...etc...etc....rawrrrrrrrr" and who can forget "mah bruthah!!"


 :lol


So, anyway, welcome to the forum.
Great post! :lol :tup
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2014, 02:31:18 PM »
Too inconsistent to be in the upper echelon.  I rarely listen to this.

I listen to the covers disc more than the main album.
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Offline Onno

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2014, 03:05:23 PM »
I personally love BC&SL, though it may have something to do with it being my first DT album. I think AROP is the weakest track; though its choruses are some of the best DT choruses IMO, the verses aren't too good and the solo section doesn't really interest me. I absolutely love the rest of the tracks though. The guitar solo in TBOT is my favourite JP guitar solo ever.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Any love for BC&SL?
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2014, 05:19:52 PM »
Once again, I feel the need to remind people of the forum rules.  You are all free to like or to dislike whatever you choose.  But criticism must be contructive.  Posts like the following are unacceptable:

For me, BC&SL was a completely un-likeable album.  There wan't one good song on it, however it had the dubious distinction of having one of the worst songs I've ever head in my life - TCOT.  A true comedy - horrible lyrics, repetitive, boring music and if it wasn't bad enough to be funny it would make me cry.  Anyway, with ADTOE I breathed a sigh of relief, as it seemed they found their way back again!


To quote the forum rules:  "12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."