Author Topic: More shootings...are the media creating more?  (Read 23875 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #140 on: August 27, 2015, 09:04:56 AM »
I still don't know what you do to kids or people who are discovered to have whatever abnormality that causes this behavior. Outside of a tumor or something physical you can remove....what if it's discovered it's genetic or something less 'physical' and unable to just remove it? Then you implement testing...find a porition of the population that are 'at risk' of going psycho and shooting people up. What do you do to them? They've done nothing yet, but we 'know' they will.

That's a tough one. Courts can order counseling, no? I've heard of judges requiring a parent to see a psychiatrist in order to continue having visitation rights. If we somehow discovered a second grader had a red flag in his or her brain, at least we know it's there. It will be on record. Make the teachers aware of the condition. Make the parents aware of the condition. Keep an eye out. Just like you'd bring a kid to regular chemo treatments if they have cancer, bring them to a psychiatrist. Mandate that they get a seal of approval every year from a doctor or something. When I was a kid, I had been ordered by a doctor to go to the nurses office once a week to have my blood pressure checked. The mentally challenged kids got special classes and mentors. We have ways of accommodating children with all kinds of disabilities. I don't see why this should be any different if detectable.

Parents might go about raising the child differently if they know about these warning signs ahead of time. Adam Lanza got the gun from his mom's collection, right? If you know your kid has one of these known conditions, maybe you don't keep guns in the house, and if you do, make sure the kid does not know the combination to the safe. Perhaps a parent will know ahead of time to keep a closer eye on what normally seems like redundant/routine behavior.

Also, if it did turn out to be a physical problem in the brain that couldn't be removed, it might be possible to engineer a drug to neutralize or dumb down the area of the brain responsible for that kind of thinking. But we can't do that until we have a better understanding of what's going on in there.

It's not an easy conversation to have, and there are a lot of elements to it, but I think it's definitely doable. I hear constantly "It's not guns, it's mental illness". Well, let's start treating it like one. That requires millions of dollars in funding and serious commitment on the government's end if they want to lessen the frequency of these events.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 09:09:59 AM by Chino »

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #141 on: August 27, 2015, 09:16:24 AM »
We can't go around performing CT scans on kiddos just to see if they might run amok someday. Moreover, if one were done for secondary reasons and turned up a red flag, I'd still support strict privacy rights for him. The truth is that it might be something perfectly manageable and assuming that he has to have extra safeguards at all times might actually be far worse than leaving him the hell alone. Like I said, crazy people happen.

And in Whitman's case, I believe the tumor was inoperable.
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Offline Chino

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #142 on: August 27, 2015, 09:25:36 AM »
We can't go around performing CT scans on kiddos just to see if they might run amok someday.

Why not? We take kids every year to get physicals. They give vaccinations, check weight, height, eyes, hearing, nut sacks, reflexes, etc... Why couldn't we throw a CT scan in there at the ages of 4, 8, and 12? Maybe don't make them mandatory, but give parents the option at least.

Offline cramx3

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #143 on: August 27, 2015, 09:28:59 AM »
We can't go around performing CT scans on kiddos just to see if they might run amok someday.

Why not? We take kids every year to get physicals. They give vaccinations, check weight, height, eyes, hearing, nut sacks, reflexes, etc... Why couldn't we throw a CT scan in there at the ages of 4, 8, and 12? Maybe don't make them mandatory, but give parents the option at least.

Expensive and time consuming?

Offline Chino

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #144 on: August 27, 2015, 09:30:50 AM »
We can't go around performing CT scans on kiddos just to see if they might run amok someday.

Why not? We take kids every year to get physicals. They give vaccinations, check weight, height, eyes, hearing, nut sacks, reflexes, etc... Why couldn't we throw a CT scan in there at the ages of 4, 8, and 12? Maybe don't make them mandatory, but give parents the option at least.

Expensive and time consuming?

We could have scanned everyone in this country a few dozen times for what we spent in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it probably would have been better spent.

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #145 on: August 27, 2015, 09:47:00 AM »
I don't think there's any insight to learn about this guy other than he was a whiny, crybaby who blamed everyone else for his life's problems then decided that since no one was listening to his whiny cry baby a$$ excuses and reasons for his failed life he'd MAKE them listen.

This is the perfect example of IF he hadn't done us all the favor of killing himself and had been caught, he should have been hung in the town square the next day after being caught. No reason for a trial or to rehabilitate him....At all. Clearly guilty. Clearly pre-meditated. Clearly a hate crime.

Sorry, bro, I can't get behind that kind of vigilante response.  I have a seven-year old stepson who already has anxiety and anger issues, and it is a challenge, believe you me.    But I can't sit here and hope he doesn't turn into one of these "whiny crybabies".  I need to act now, and every scrap of information helps me.   Adam Lanza ABSOLUTELY could have been avoided if people were more diligent on the signs, if there wasn't the stigma of having a child with those deep needs, and if there was a focus on pro-active prevention instead of re-active street justice.   My old roommate and coworker's neice was one of those children in Sandy Hook (and the school itself was in walking distance of my aunt's house) so it hits home.  You can have your blood vengeance in due time; wring him of all his relevant information first, please, okay? 

That kind of capital punishment is purely vengeance, purely retaliatory.  There is almost no element of prevention or deterrence involved.

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #146 on: August 27, 2015, 09:55:10 AM »

I still don't know what you do to kids or people who are discovered to have whatever abnormality that causes this behavior. Outside of a tumor or something physical you can remove....what if it's discovered it's genetic or something less 'physical' and unable to just remove it? Then you implement testing...find a porition of the population that are 'at risk' of going psycho and shooting people up. What do you do to them? They've done nothing yet, but we 'know' they will.

Well, we'll hopefully figure that out too.  The point is (well, my point is) if we have 100 kids, and we don't do anything and just kill them all when they commit crimes like this, then we're 0 for 100.  If by studying them, we figure out that 3, or 4, or 5, or 10 or how ever many, can be monitored, treated, cured, whatever, isn't that worth it?   I agree with el Barto, even if it doesn't seem it:  there are always going to be shitbags.  We're probably never going to be 100 for 100.   But so what?  Gun control ain't workin'; we're still 0 for 100 on that one. 

This is akin to the plagues and epidemics of the past; just burn the sick, or do we figure out that some are caused by bacteria (treatable one way), some are caused by viruses (treatable another way), some are genetic (treatable a third way) and we can focus in. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #147 on: August 27, 2015, 09:59:25 AM »
We can't go around performing CT scans on kiddos just to see if they might run amok someday.

Why not? We take kids every year to get physicals. They give vaccinations, check weight, height, eyes, hearing, nut sacks, reflexes, etc... Why couldn't we throw a CT scan in there at the ages of 4, 8, and 12? Maybe don't make them mandatory, but give parents the option at least.
For the reasons I listed. Trying to prevent them from acting out might cause much worse problems than letting them live their lives as-is. Moreover, we'd never be able to sort out what constitutes a red flag, so we'd be penalizing kids with no real evidence of need.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #148 on: August 27, 2015, 10:50:29 AM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:32:59 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Chino

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #149 on: August 27, 2015, 10:55:05 AM »
Are Stadler and I actually agreeing on something?

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #150 on: August 27, 2015, 11:08:23 AM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:33:17 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #151 on: August 27, 2015, 11:13:14 AM »
Absolutely sickened to find that a paranoid nutjob from the local music scene that I'm (probably not much longer) friends with on FB is ALL over this being a hoax in order to perpetrate gun control, "just like Sandy Hook".  I have no f*cking words.  People like this should be shot into the sun.  My blood is boiling right now.

Offline Chino

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #152 on: August 27, 2015, 12:11:07 PM »
Absolutely sickened to find that a paranoid nutjob from the local music scene that I'm (probably not much longer) friends with on FB is ALL over this being a hoax in order to perpetrate gun control, "just like Sandy Hook".  I have no f*cking words.  People like this should be shot into the sun.  My blood is boiling right now.

He probably listens to Alex Jones. I'm going to head over to Info Wars and see what I can find.


....

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Agreed, except I have expressed outrage to every single sheep that has come within ten yards of me, for the past few years. Time for talking is over. Time for action is at hand. Our Forefathers would not hesitate, if they saw what this kenyan traitor has done to america, with the help of his zionist masters.
I dismiss anyone as soon as they say Kenyan.

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The government is frightened of we the people! The only reason they are trying to take our guns! The government doesn't want a revolution because they know they will lose! Keep fighting my brothers and sisters and we will defeat the evil before us! God Speed to all!
The government is frightened of we the people? Yeah. I'm sure their armored trucks, drones, tanks, unlimited surveillance, and the rest of their arsenal are really afraid of a few guys with low grade body armor and a couple AR-15s.

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Keep in mind that while he works to disarm the American people not only does he release illegal murderers back onto our streets to murder some more but his occupying SS army murders between 1 to 3 citizens a day.
Has Omaba actually done anything to disarm anyone? I know some states have, but what has Obama done?

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What are u laughing about moron?--it's only matter of bribing the politicians to pass his laws. Haven't u hrd of US Federal Reserve Bank?--it's just legalized COUNTERFEITING--they just print up (and digitalize) however much money they want/need. And I guarantee u it's only matter of time before they DO get their gun-control agenda passed.
No comment.

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Obama himself is more to blame than guns or even mental illness. He's the one that has fanned the flames of racial division and hatred in this country since he took office, something that undoubtedly encouraged and motivated the killer to act yesterday
Yes. Obama is directly responsible for yesterday's shooter's instability.

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Obama isn't my president, however he is the biggest threat to my freedom and is possibly the biggest terrorist this country has ever seen
Lol

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The only thing that is Wrong with America is "The Black Muslim President"... This sorry Muslim has ruined America by creating a Race War and underminding the America Way Of Life... Islam and his sweet muslim's that follow a false prophet and worship their allah which is Satan... Go To Hell You Black Muslim President>>>
^^^ I bet he flies a confederate flag for heritage.

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FALSE FLAG. FALSE FLAG. FALSE FLAG!!!!

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #153 on: August 27, 2015, 12:15:40 PM »
I really don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #154 on: August 27, 2015, 12:16:15 PM »
Are Stadler and I actually agreeing on something?

There's a thin coat of ice on my front lawn, so apparently so.  :)


Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #155 on: August 27, 2015, 12:27:20 PM »
Here's the thing.

Talk of CT scans.  That seems extreme.  Especially since CT scans are usually not some random event considering what it entails.  It is not a pleasant experience (so I've heard) and running tons of kids through it would be a logistical nightmare.

Drugs.  I'm betting the prescriptions would be overdone, and even if they weren't, there would be tons of idiots heading a protest to stop the "drugging of our kids, 'Murica".

And I thought of Minority Report as well.  Stadler talks about stopping a few.  How would you know it was stopped v. just making the person "stopped" have a miserable life with a massive stigma.

You just have to take it as it comes.  How many cases go from "never a lick of trouble" to slaughtered a dozen people?  You might get some interviews that say that, but that's because they weren't really a big part of that persons life (or that is their defense mechanism so they aren't asked why they didn't do anything.)  So far, most of the events have had quite a few tell-tale signs leading up to the event.  That doesn't mean we have to grab them and lock them up.  But we could address them directly, temporarily take away their ability to buy a gun until resolved ... and maybe even a CT scan.

This is as much to el Barto as for you (because he is commenting on this as well), but let's keep one foot solidly on the ground here.  I'm not suggesting CAT scans for everyone, and proactive drugged stupor for anyone who has the XYZ gene.   I'm not even conceding that all (or even any) of the solutions are purely physical.   I'm just talking about populating the database so that we can profile, where appropriate and necessary, certain students that are displaying certain behaviors.   Until we started studying these things in more detail, we thought almost all serial killers were white males.  Turns out, not the case.   We started to identify certain behaviors in childhood that, when coupled with certain "trigger events" and environmental inputs, increased the tendency for violent behavior in adulthood.  That's what I'm talking about. 

Initial studies were thought to show that females made up anywhere from 4% to 10% of child molesters, but certainly not more than that.  Further, expanded study has shown that is probably low, and a recent study showed almost 50% of molestations were at the hands of a female perp.  That's meaningful.   

This is just off the top of my head, but the point is, if there is ANY tidbit that can differentiate the future Adam Lanza from the weird kid down the block (or, conversely, that links the weird kid down the block to Adam Lanza) maybe it can make a difference.  But I am not suggesting a police state with regards to this, or a sort of eugenics program for this. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #156 on: August 27, 2015, 02:04:26 PM »
Here's the thing.

Talk of CT scans.  That seems extreme.  Especially since CT scans are usually not some random event considering what it entails.  It is not a pleasant experience (so I've heard) and running tons of kids through it would be a logistical nightmare.

Drugs.  I'm betting the prescriptions would be overdone, and even if they weren't, there would be tons of idiots heading a protest to stop the "drugging of our kids, 'Murica".

And I thought of Minority Report as well.  Stadler talks about stopping a few.  How would you know it was stopped v. just making the person "stopped" have a miserable life with a massive stigma.

You just have to take it as it comes.  How many cases go from "never a lick of trouble" to slaughtered a dozen people?  You might get some interviews that say that, but that's because they weren't really a big part of that persons life (or that is their defense mechanism so they aren't asked why they didn't do anything.)  So far, most of the events have had quite a few tell-tale signs leading up to the event.  That doesn't mean we have to grab them and lock them up.  But we could address them directly, temporarily take away their ability to buy a gun until resolved ... and maybe even a CT scan.

This is as much to el Barto as for you (because he is commenting on this as well), but let's keep one foot solidly on the ground here.  I'm not suggesting CAT scans for everyone, and proactive drugged stupor for anyone who has the XYZ gene.   I'm not even conceding that all (or even any) of the solutions are purely physical.   I'm just talking about populating the database so that we can profile, where appropriate and necessary, certain students that are displaying certain behaviors.   Until we started studying these things in more detail, we thought almost all serial killers were white males.  Turns out, not the case.   We started to identify certain behaviors in childhood that, when coupled with certain "trigger events" and environmental inputs, increased the tendency for violent behavior in adulthood.  That's what I'm talking about. 

Initial studies were thought to show that females made up anywhere from 4% to 10% of child molesters, but certainly not more than that.  Further, expanded study has shown that is probably low, and a recent study showed almost 50% of molestations were at the hands of a female perp.  That's meaningful.   

This is just off the top of my head, but the point is, if there is ANY tidbit that can differentiate the future Adam Lanza from the weird kid down the block (or, conversely, that links the weird kid down the block to Adam Lanza) maybe it can make a difference.  But I am not suggesting a police state with regards to this, or a sort of eugenics program for this.
I wasn't considering you at all when I brought up CT scans; I was only addressing GMD's fascinating point about Minority Report and predicting the future. However, since you're now bringing this up I'll expand on my stance that trying to predict the future outcome of people would be a disaster, and the more precise you tried to be the worse. If some kid meets several of the criteria for a potential Whitman do you rent him an apartment? Hire him to work for your company? Let him attend your elementary school? Allow him to live within 1000 ft of schools, parks, bus stops and malls? Any attempt to predict whether or not somebody might go off their nut will almost guarantee that they'll never be more than failures. 
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #157 on: August 27, 2015, 02:12:42 PM »
trying to predict the future outcome of people would be a disaster, and the more precise you tried to be the worse. If some kid meets several of the criteria for a potential Whitman do you rent him an apartment? Hire him to work for your company? Let him attend your elementary school? Allow him to live within 1000 ft of schools, parks, bus stops and malls? Any attempt to predict whether or not somebody might go off their nut will almost guarantee that they'll never be more than failures.

I agree here EB. The moment you pigeonhole people into a group....separate them out as 'different'.....those people are F'd as far as getting a fair shake in life. It'd be like a scarlet letter.
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Offline j

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #158 on: August 27, 2015, 03:05:08 PM »
I know you guys are probably just using "CT scan" as a placeholder for some diagnostic test that we hypothetically develop and can effectively identify some neurological differences in people like this, but to be clear...that test will most certainly NOT be a CT scan.  A CT of the brain really gives you information primarily about "macro" gross anatomy and is used to identify bleeding, ischemia, fractures, masses, inflammation to some degree, and major anatomical changes.  They're not good for much else; certainly not for telling you anything at the cellular or molecular level, and they expose you to a significant dose of ionizing radiation, so we sure as hell wouldn't be routinely lining kids up for 'em.

My guess is this hypothetical test is less likely to be an imaging study and more likely to be some kind of genetic test or invasive tissue sampling for microscopic analysis, neither of which seems practical either for different reasons.

-J

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #159 on: August 27, 2015, 04:46:44 PM »
Well, for my part I was referring to a "pecan sized" mass between the left and right amygdalai, and the CT seemed the most likely instrument for finding it. Looks like my attempt at armchair neurology has been validated.  :biggrin:
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #160 on: August 27, 2015, 05:19:34 PM »
It never ceases to amaze me when "mental health issue" is used as a get out of jail free card, that brings up no further questions. I agree that it is a mental issue, but why is that mutually exclusive from a gun issue? Why shouldn't we look into how these idiots are so free to get these guns? And further, what do these "mental health issue" proponents propose should be done about that issue? If someone is sick enough to go through with these atrocities, there's high probability to think they won't be able to afford the mental health required. But, propose changes to our health system to make it more affordable for all, ESPECIALLY those that fall into the demographic of the mentally ill, and it's seen as "socialized health care" and passed off as a dirty word. I'm sick of guys like Trump just saying "it's a mental health issue" as a way to get out of looking at guns, and offer no solutions whatsoever to the healthcare system.


Look, I've long said I'm against socialism, and for capitalism, it's why I could never vote for Bernie Sanders. That is 100% true. But perhaps medicine is something that actually benefits society as a whole, akin to military defending us all? We don't care who gets protected from attacks from outside threats, just that Americans are protected with our tax dollars, why should medicine be seen differently? Because it also looks like that is a way to protect Americans from other Americans, the mentally ill.

I'm happy to announce that I'm doing great mentally at 30 years old, but when I was 22 - 24 I was a wreck. MP members know my history, but long story short, I was badly in need of mental help, but because I was fresh out of college and had not reached the level of success a capitalist medicinal system would require someone to have obtained to receive care, I had not been able to afford it. Sometimes I'm amazed I survived that period - and I was never a threat to anyone (except myself). It is truly infuriating when "mental health issue" is just a buzzword thrown around as a way to get the conversation off of guns, and never pushed further than that. It doesn't take "red flags" or a lawyer to help, or at least it shouldn't. Why is care being obtainable by those in need such a foreign concept, and we're bickering about "red flags?"


And no, this isn't a defense of Obamacare, that law is screwed up because of other issues. But if our system actually changed overnight to a system that did allow for these sick, poor, individuals to receive proper mental health care they so badly need, guys like Trump would fight it tooth and nail. Any time guys like him use the "mental health issue" cop out I can't help but think they're full of crap.


edit: dammit, wrong thread. Oh well, it belongs in both.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 05:44:46 PM by portnoy311 »

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #161 on: August 27, 2015, 06:24:17 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:33:40 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #162 on: August 27, 2015, 06:51:59 PM »
The problem is that crazy is a bit of a sliding scale. So is being an asshole, and there's some overlap between the two. If we're talking about mental health and guns as it pertains to this most recent jerk-face, I don't see how you can really attribute crazy to him. There were red flags, but I'm not sure how you translate that to controlling gun ownership.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #163 on: August 27, 2015, 07:00:03 PM »
To me, the saddest thing is that when it comes to these type of lone wolf people on suicide missions, there isn't much we can to stop them.

We can't put anyone with any kind of mental illness is an asylum, and it is often impossible to know which people are going to snap and do things like this.

Bad situation all-around. >:(

Offline j

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #164 on: August 27, 2015, 07:08:08 PM »
Well, for my part I was referring to a "pecan sized" mass between the left and right amygdalai, and the CT seemed the most likely instrument for finding it. Looks like my attempt at armchair neurology has been validated.  :biggrin:

The...mammillary body?  Sorry my neuroanatomy is super rusty. :biggrin:

Anyway on second thought, there's probably a role for PET-CT in this.  Lot of radiation, but can give you an idea of the level of metabolic activity in various parts of the brain, rather than just the basic anatomy.  As far as I know right now it's main use clinically is staging for metastatic cancer; it's a big time research tool though.

-J

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #165 on: August 27, 2015, 07:14:37 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:33:56 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #166 on: August 27, 2015, 07:20:18 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:34:08 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #167 on: August 27, 2015, 08:41:54 PM »
[firearms and the mentally ill laws/url]

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But you can't change the 2nd amendment.  Anybody that even talks about changing any amendment without another amendment is clearly a moron  :-X

Looking over the list you posted the problem is that half of those states only deal with the permit to carry. Texas has a pretty well thought out (albeit impractical) law on the matter, but it doesn't effect people who just want to buy a gun. The bigger issue, though is the second point (where I think you were being facetious). The lobbying wing of the gun manufactures (AKA the NRA) will denounce any attempt, no matter how reasonable, to place common sense restrictions on gun sales, and they'll rile up the crowd that thinks the 2nd Amendment is the simplest thing in the world.

I suspect you and I are on the same page here, in that we both support the right for normal citizens to own guns, but some common sense is definitely in order. Common sense that is unilaterally unacceptable to the NRA.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #168 on: August 27, 2015, 09:55:19 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:34:35 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #169 on: August 28, 2015, 12:40:56 PM »
It never ceases to amaze me when "mental health issue" is used as a get out of jail free card, that brings up no further questions. I agree that it is a mental issue, but why is that mutually exclusive from a gun issue? Why shouldn't we look into how these idiots are so free to get these guns? And further, what do these "mental health issue" proponents propose should be done about that issue? If someone is sick enough to go through with these atrocities, there's high probability to think they won't be able to afford the mental health required. But, propose changes to our health system to make it more affordable for all, ESPECIALLY those that fall into the demographic of the mentally ill, and it's seen as "socialized health care" and passed off as a dirty word. I'm sick of guys like Trump just saying "it's a mental health issue" as a way to get out of looking at guns, and offer no solutions whatsoever to the healthcare system.


Look, I've long said I'm against socialism, and for capitalism, it's why I could never vote for Bernie Sanders. That is 100% true. But perhaps medicine is something that actually benefits society as a whole, akin to military defending us all? We don't care who gets protected from attacks from outside threats, just that Americans are protected with our tax dollars, why should medicine be seen differently? Because it also looks like that is a way to protect Americans from other Americans, the mentally ill.

You're, of course, right, and as another avowed capitalist, I've come around on the idea of healthcare perhaps not being best served by a market in all cases.

But the problem isn't "socialism!" or "mental health" as a GOOJF card.  It's the one size fits all mentality of all of this.  Just look at this thread (and now I'm not talking about any one poster); we seem to be pinging back and forth between extremes.  Ban guns, or put everyone with a warning sign in an asylum.  OF COURSE NOT.  But there has to be more than there is now.  We have to have people asking the right questions.  I would absolutely and unequivocally have brought up Nancy Lanza on murder charges had she lived.  She should have known better.   My jury is out on Peter Lanza.   We have schools that pay for and provide coaches for various sports; why not "mental health advocates"?  Now, this opens another issue, since I think public education is a racket (yes, I'll cite Altressa Cox-Blackwell [http://www.courant.com/community/enfield/hc-enfield-prudence-crandall-principal-suspended-20150312-story.html] again here; I don't want her selfish, arrogant ass anywhere NEAR my kid, thank you) but still.   

If my eyes aren't what they used to be, I have to jump through more hoops to get a driver's license.  I don't see why the same shouldn't be had for a gun license.   If I have certain physical abnormalities, I may be precluded from playing sports in school; I don't see why that wouldn't be the same here. 

It all has to be done in the reasonable way, a way we've done countless things in the past.   
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 07:19:21 AM by Stadler »

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #170 on: August 28, 2015, 05:16:32 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:34:43 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #171 on: August 29, 2015, 07:21:29 AM »
If my eyes aren't what they used to be, I have to jump through more hoops to get a driver's license.
Because the Bill of Rights didn't include the right to drive?

Of course, but it did include free speech, and there is arguably more "banned" or "regulated" speech than there is accepted speech.  The Supreme Court has, over the past 200 years (plus or minus) developed cogent, well-thought out processes for handling rights in a manner that is anything but "unrestricted".   "Time, place, and manner" restrictions to free speech are so common-place we don't even think about it at this point.   

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #172 on: August 29, 2015, 10:35:34 AM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:34:57 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline TempusVox

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #173 on: August 29, 2015, 11:37:29 AM »
It's all moot if we don't create the infrastructure, and change our collective mindset to support and treat people with mental illness. We continue to make it something we don't talk about; and we sure as Hell don't do anything about.

 I heard a statistic yesterday that in the 1950's there were more than 600,000 beds for the mentally ill in hospitals. But hospitalizing the mentally ill was deemed cruel. So we have 40,000 beds now. Today, if a hospital has more than 16 beds dedicated to mental health patients, then Medicare actually penalizes the amount of dollars they receive in reimbursement. And the ratio of children with mental illness to psychiatrists in the US is 4,000 to 1.

W...T...F???
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #174 on: August 29, 2015, 12:25:11 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:35:10 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.