Author Topic: More shootings...are the media creating more?  (Read 23876 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #105 on: August 26, 2015, 12:44:24 PM »
Wait.  He etched the SC Church victims initials into the bullets?  So we ban black, gay churches?  Or maybe we ban engravers?  I'm going with engravers.

Looks like he called out Dylan Roof specifically as well.

Quote
“As for Dylann Roof? You (deleted)! You want a race war (deleted)? BRING IT THEN YOU WHITE …(deleted)!!!” He said Jehovah spoke to him, telling him to act.

Thanks Jehova.


I hope this is a wake up call to all news/media outlets that constantly covering these events can lead to more tragedy. This dude pretty much confirmed the thread title.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #106 on: August 26, 2015, 12:59:24 PM »
f
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:30:15 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #107 on: August 26, 2015, 01:00:12 PM »
Honestly, I'm not sure why this isn't dumped into the shit happens pile. It's a big deal because it happened on live TV and he filmed it, I guess. All of the other factors are trivial. People murder each other over perceived slights and employment matters all the time. While unfortunate, this really is just the senseless murder of a couple of people and doesn't really need to have much more than that read into it.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #108 on: August 26, 2015, 01:08:10 PM »
It's absolutely insane how close he gets without anyone noticing. There's quite a bit more footage beyond where the gif leaves off. After drawing the gun the first time, he backs away and waits a while longer, all the while no one seems to notice him. It's almost like he waited because he knew the camera guy didn't have her in the shot.

This is exactly why he didn't shoot....It's pretty obvious that's the case.

Of course this will be the fault of 'weak' gun laws.....and this guy will get a pass by a lot of people because he had a 'mental' disorder which are both BS. He was just a POS who most likely blamed everyone else but himself for a lifetime of failures.....because, he sucked as a person.

Two people are dead because this guy didn't get his way. It's a relief he killed himself, otherwise we'd have most likely supported him while he served out his life sentence or waited 30 years to be executed. 
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Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #109 on: August 26, 2015, 01:24:17 PM »
Don't wanna go all sentimental here but I read a thread on Reddit whishing everyone to not learn anything about the gunman and if they start talking, turn it off. Don't make him the star of this story. RIP Reporter Alison Parker (24) and Cameraman Adam Ward (27).



I know I know, like Reddit or media will listen....

Still though I think it's nice and feel more human than to dwell into a crazy persons brain, we have enough of that already. Besides attention is what they want anyway.
There were times when Rik and I were writing together when we almost died laughing. They were some of the most carefree stupid days I ever had, and I feel privileged to have shared them with him. And now he's died for real. Without me. Selfish bastard.

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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #110 on: August 26, 2015, 01:34:00 PM »
f
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:30:44 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #111 on: August 26, 2015, 01:40:54 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:30:55 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline vtgrad

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #112 on: August 26, 2015, 01:49:07 PM »
I guess the thought process around and incident like this is a lot different when the victims are your own.

Or maybe the fact that the victim's friends are part of the media, so they have stories and pictures ready instantaneously as opposed to trying to track it down, verify its authenticity, etc.

And this is a big part of why I can't watch these murder videos (ISIS being the most obvious recent examples).  While actual gore is a big part of why I don't want to see it, it is more about seeing somebody right before they die.  Seeing them as a living, breathing being that's seconds away from being no more.  Possibly seeing the fear or confusion in their eyes and contorted expressions trying to quickly come to terms that "this is it."  That's much worse than any gore.

Now if the victim is the actual murderer later on in a video, then it is mostly just about not wanting to see the gore.

And hearing.  Her screams are the only noise aside from the shots themselves.  Terrible.

Hard to believe. 
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."  Ecclesiastes 12:13

Now with Twitler taking a high end steak of this caliber and insulting the cow that died for it by having it well done just shows zero respect for the product, which falls right in line with the amount of respect he shows for pretty much everything else.- Lonestar

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #113 on: August 26, 2015, 02:05:48 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:31:17 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #114 on: August 26, 2015, 03:00:04 PM »
Don't wanna go all sentimental here but I read a thread on Reddit whishing everyone to not learn anything about the gunman and if they start talking, turn it off. Don't make him the star of this story. RIP Reporter Alison Parker (24) and Cameraman Adam Ward (27).



I know I know, like Reddit or media will listen....

Still though I think it's nice and feel more human than to dwell into a crazy persons brain, we have enough of that already. Besides attention is what they want anyway.

But with all due respect to the victims - and I don't know about anyone else, but I feel profound sadness when I see people smiling and laughing like that when I know they have passed - we HAVE to learn more about this douche.  WHY.  HOW.   If we have any hope of preventing these senseless killings beyond the useless and knee-jerk "let's ban guns!" nonsense, we have to know more.   Why does this assbag go nuclear and the 10's of thousands of other people with the exact same sensory inputs don't?   

No, don't sensationalize him, don't make him a symbol, or worse yet, a martyr, but absolutely learn more about him so perhaps the warning signs can start to be noticed PRO-ACTIVELY, not retro-actively. 

Offline cramx3

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #115 on: August 26, 2015, 03:10:13 PM »
But is that the job of the media or for the police?  Just pondering out loud (or on a keyboard).

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #116 on: August 26, 2015, 03:26:48 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:31:29 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #117 on: August 26, 2015, 03:31:00 PM »
we HAVE to learn more about this douche.  WHY.  HOW.   If we have any hope of preventing these senseless killings beyond the useless and knee-jerk "let's ban guns!" nonsense, we have to know more.   Why does this assbag go nuclear and the 10's of thousands of other people with the exact same sensory inputs don't?   

No, don't sensationalize him, don't make him a symbol, or worse yet, a martyr, but absolutely learn more about him so perhaps the warning signs can start to be noticed PRO-ACTIVELY, not retro-actively. 
Yeah, I agree about gaining more insight into why he was such an asshole. At the same time, I'm of the opinion that preventing these senseless killings shouldn't be the number one goal. It'd certainly be good to try, but I think it's just as important for people to re-familiarize themselves with the fact that these things will happen sometimes, and there's nothing that makes them an exception this fact. Crazy people and assholes exist, will continue to exist, and will occasionally manage to snuff some people. I've always been troubled by the notion that we deserve complete safety from such instances. Take reasonable precautions, but also accept that they won't always be enough.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #118 on: August 26, 2015, 05:03:31 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:31:39 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #119 on: August 26, 2015, 05:33:06 PM »
I don't think there's any insight to learn about this guy other than he was a whiny, crybaby who blamed everyone else for his life's problems then decided that since no one was listening to his whiny cry baby a$$ excuses and reasons for his failed life he'd MAKE them listen.

This is the perfect example of IF he hadn't done us all the favor of killing himself and had been caught, he should have been hung in the town square the next day after being caught. No reason for a trial or to rehabilitate him....At all. Clearly guilty. Clearly pre-meditated. Clearly a hate crime.



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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #120 on: August 26, 2015, 05:37:35 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:31:49 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #121 on: August 26, 2015, 06:13:50 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:32:01 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #122 on: August 26, 2015, 06:22:02 PM »
Don't wanna go all sentimental here but I read a thread on Reddit whishing everyone to not learn anything about the gunman and if they start talking, turn it off. Don't make him the star of this story. 

Exactly.  Say what you want about Megyn Kelly, but when this shit happens, she does not allow the name or face of the perpetrators to be said or shown on her show.  Others should be following her example.

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #123 on: August 26, 2015, 06:46:03 PM »
Don't wanna go all sentimental here but I read a thread on Reddit whishing everyone to not learn anything about the gunman and if they start talking, turn it off. Don't make him the star of this story. 

Exactly.  Say what you want about Megyn Kelly, but when this shit happens, she does not allow the name or face of the perpetrators to be said or shown on her show.  Others should be following her example.
Like I said the last time this point was made.

Although I now suppose that it would make a few people feel better via the assertion of their principles.

Also, where do you draw the line? Who can have their name published and who can't? I honestly don't see what makes this shitbag any different than 99% of the murderers in this country other than the fact that we all get to see his handiwork.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #124 on: August 26, 2015, 06:49:07 PM »
I honestly don't see what makes this shitbag any different than 99% of the murderers in this country other than the fact that we all get to see his handiwork.

That's it. He found a "new", creative way to separate himself from the fray of nutjobs (for a short time) Unfortunately I suspect it'll just be nutjobs trying to 'one up' him from here on out....I'd most definitely expect more first person videos of people cold blooded murdering people to start surfacing now.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #125 on: August 26, 2015, 06:57:06 PM »
I honestly don't see what makes this shitbag any different than 99% of the murderers in this country other than the fact that we all get to see his handiwork.

That's it. He found a "new", creative way to separate himself from the fray of nutjobs (for a short time) Unfortunately I suspect it'll just be nutjobs trying to 'one up' him from here on out....I'd most definitely expect more first person videos of people cold blooded murdering people to start surfacing now.
I'd simply call that an evolution of technology. I don't think he was trying to start a new trend, and while I agree that this will now be the norm, it would have become so whether he did it or the next guy.

And didn't that asshole-loser in So-Cal who couldn't get laid record his shootings on his phone?
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #126 on: August 26, 2015, 07:04:38 PM »
I honestly don't see what makes this shitbag any different than 99% of the murderers in this country other than the fact that we all get to see his handiwork.

That's it. He found a "new", creative way to separate himself from the fray of nutjobs (for a short time) Unfortunately I suspect it'll just be nutjobs trying to 'one up' him from here on out....I'd most definitely expect more first person videos of people cold blooded murdering people to start surfacing now.
I'd simply call that an evolution of technology. I don't think he was trying to start a new trend, and while I agree that this will now be the norm, it would have become so whether he did it or the next guy.

And didn't that asshole-loser in So-Cal who couldn't get laid record his shootings on his phone?

I think he did record them also, but didn't upload them. Suppose you're correct on the 'evolution of technology' aspect. It was just a matter of time until 'this' happened.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #127 on: August 26, 2015, 07:16:45 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:32:20 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline jammindude

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #128 on: August 26, 2015, 08:12:12 PM »
I'm honestly just waiting for the sympathizers now that it has come out that he was "bullied" because he was "black and gay"...  (I'm not putting it in quotes to be snarky, it's in quotes because it's his assertion, some of which we have yet to even verify)

It's like all morning he was a scumbag, but now that he's painted himself as a victim acting in protest of a church shooting....   Let's just say I'm bracing myself for a huge wave of, "Well...we don't agree with his methods, but we sympathize with his plight..." 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #129 on: August 26, 2015, 08:25:54 PM »
Let's just say I'm bracing myself for a huge wave of, "Well...we don't agree with his methods, but we sympathize with his plight..."
Why would that be wrong?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #130 on: August 26, 2015, 08:30:56 PM »
Funny reading that from just a little over a year ago.  I'm betting the two names you mentioned are less and less memorable as time goes on and they will eventually barely be remembered as the Senator shooter dude and the Joker or Movie Theater killer dude.
They'll become less memorable as the people who were around for it die off. I remember both quite well, but that's because it was a pretty big deal at the time. But consider that everybody knows who Charles Whitman was and that was what, 50 years ago? I guess my point is that there are key aspects that might stick with people, but the name or face isn't really one of them unless there's something highly memorable about it. A freaky appearance obviously makes a difference, and I guess if some guy named Shooty McDickface goes off then people will probably remember him, as well.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #131 on: August 26, 2015, 08:39:42 PM »
and I guess if some guy named Shooty McDickface goes off then people will probably remember him, as well.

Well.....it'd be hard to forget a guy named Shooty McDickface...just saying. Heck, I may not forget that name now  :lol
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Offline jammindude

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #132 on: August 26, 2015, 08:41:08 PM »
Let's just say I'm bracing myself for a huge wave of, "Well...we don't agree with his methods, but we sympathize with his plight..."
Why would that be wrong?

Didn't you just argue we shouldn't even mention these people so that they could just be forgotten?   

I do think people need sympathy...but my sympathy ends when you just decide that you want to take out innocents and then cowardly take yourself out rather than face the music.  This pattern is just getting too common.      Any cause....any cause at all....no matter what...is only *harmed* by doing lame crap like this. 
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #133 on: August 26, 2015, 09:00:07 PM »
a
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:32:32 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #134 on: August 27, 2015, 06:17:19 AM »
Let's just say I'm bracing myself for a huge wave of, "Well...we don't agree with his methods, but we sympathize with his plight..."
Why would that be wrong?

Because the guy murdered 2 people...

Who cares if he's black and gay? He took 2 peoples lives away...

Offline Chino

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #135 on: August 27, 2015, 06:36:41 AM »
I don't think there's any insight to learn about this guy other than he was a whiny, crybaby who blamed everyone else for his life's problems then decided that since no one was listening to his whiny cry baby a$$ excuses and reasons for his failed life he'd MAKE them listen.

I don't disagree at all with the crybaby stuff. That's completely valid. However, as far as insight goes, I wouldn't write that off just yet. For as much as we know about the brain, there is still plenty we are clueless about, much like the Earth's oceans. We've made great progress in the last decade when it comes to finding physical abnormalities in the brain that lead to certain conditions.

I think it's safe to say that none of us are about to go out and kill anyone. Many of us probably can't even imagine ourselves killing someone outside of self defense. Why is that? That's the million dollar question. People getting angry or being a crybaby isn't really the issue here. Let's face it, we all get angry and have been a crybaby at some point in our lives. So why do some take it to that next level? Why are some people (the majority) able to keep these emotions at bay while others get the desire to kill and harm? Is there an abnormality in their brain? Is there a common neural signature or wiring that could be found as a link between the majority of these acts? We find elevated levels of testosterone throughout the animal kingdom in really aggressive species, as well as over sized areas of the brain responsible for fear and aggression. It's not ridiculous to think that the human brain couldn't fall victim (dealt a shitty genetic hand) to that type of emotion.

My main argument against the death penalty is I feel like the brains are valuable. You never know what technology might yield in the decades to come. Let's take the Colorado shooter for example. He got life in prison yesterday rather than the death penalty. I think that's fantastic. He's young with 60+ years of being a potential subject for brain scientists to study. We've just started mapping the brain. In 30 years time, we could find something in this guy's brain that could give insight on how detect these kind of people in the future. For the sake of other potential victims, that's well worth not putting him down.

Again, I'm not saying had this guy lived we should have given him another chance on the street. But to have put him to death or locked him in solitary forever would have done no good. That brain needs to be kept healthy and in tact, and scientists need to be allowed to study it as deeply as they please.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #136 on: August 27, 2015, 08:11:43 AM »
I don't think there's any insight to learn about this guy other than he was a whiny, crybaby who blamed everyone else for his life's problems then decided that since no one was listening to his whiny cry baby a$$ excuses and reasons for his failed life he'd MAKE them listen.

I don't disagree at all with the crybaby stuff. That's completely valid. However, as far as insight goes, I wouldn't write that off just yet. For as much as we know about the brain, there is still plenty we are clueless about, much like the Earth's oceans. We've made great progress in the last decade when it comes to finding physical abnormalities in the brain that lead to certain conditions.

I think it's safe to say that none of us are about to go out and kill anyone. Many of us probably can't even imagine ourselves killing someone outside of self defense. Why is that? That's the million dollar question. People getting angry or being a crybaby isn't really the issue here. Let's face it, we all get angry and have been a crybaby at some point in our lives. So why do some take it to that next level? Why are some people (the majority) able to keep these emotions at bay while others get the desire to kill and harm? Is there an abnormality in their brain? Is there a common neural signature or wiring that could be found as a link between the majority of these acts? We find elevated levels of testosterone throughout the animal kingdom in really aggressive species, as well as over sized areas of the brain responsible for fear and aggression. It's not ridiculous to think that the human brain couldn't fall victim (dealt a shitty genetic hand) to that type of emotion.

My main argument against the death penalty is I feel like the brains are valuable. You never know what technology might yield in the decades to come. Let's take the Colorado shooter for example. He got life in prison yesterday rather than the death penalty. I think that's fantastic. He's young with 60+ years of being a potential subject for brain scientists to study. We've just started mapping the brain. In 30 years time, we could find something in this guy's brain that could give insight on how detect these kind of people in the future. For the sake of other potential victims, that's well worth not putting him down.

Again, I'm not saying had this guy lived we should have given him another chance on the street. But to have put him to death or locked him in solitary forever would have done no good. That brain needs to be kept healthy and in tact, and scientists need to be allowed to study it as deeply as they please.

I totally understand where you're coming from on this Brian. But, in the extremely rare case that we'd actually be able to figure out 'what' makes 'them' do it.....what do you do then? It's almost a Minority Report situation. you test kids in 2nd grade and you find a kid with 'the' marker or trait or whatever. What then? Do you lock him up then? He's gonna do it at some point whether it be him getting an F on his math test or dumped or evicted from his home.....somethings going to set him off.

 I personally don't think we'll ever be able to 'find' whatever it is that sets these people off. I don't think it's something that will register on a test. I think it falls in line with consciousness meaning man can't prove how we have consciousness scientifically...I don't think we'll ever know 'why' these nuts do what they do.

It's my personal belief that the 'mental illness' defense of a large majority of these a$$hats is a sham and they are fully aware of what they are doing. I'm not saying that some of these murderers aren't mentally ill.....but for example.....the Colorado Shooter. He's not mentally ill. He knew what he was doing, kept notebooks of the stuff....talked to his therapist about it, planned it out from escape routes to time of movie. I think he WANTED to be mentally ill for the celebrity of it all ALA Charles Manson. But he's no more mentally ill than I am and I'd have executed him the day after he was found guilty. The only thing to learn from him is that he played the system to the max and now will live out the remainder of his days in better conditions that most of the worlds population.

When it comes to these cold blooded killers who have NO DEFENSE AT ALL  for killing the people they kill......I have a very big crisis of Faith because I know what I'm 'supposed' to do and think according to my Faith. But the emotion of it all overwhelms me and I get ticked to no end and think these people should just be removed from the equation forever. Probably not the most compassionate thing to do but it seems like the most logical.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #137 on: August 27, 2015, 08:24:21 AM »
Let's just say I'm bracing myself for a huge wave of, "Well...we don't agree with his methods, but we sympathize with his plight..."
Why would that be wrong?

Because the guy murdered 2 people...

Who cares if he's black and gay? He took 2 peoples lives away...
"We don't agree with his methods"

There shouldn't be any conflict with denouncing his actions and punishing him should the opportunity still present itself with considering that there might have been a wrong perpetrated against him. Nobody says that has to justify or mitigate his assholery.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #138 on: August 27, 2015, 08:46:13 AM »
I totally understand where you're coming from on this Brian. But, in the extremely rare case that we'd actually be able to figure out 'what' makes 'them' do it.....what do you do then? It's almost a Minority Report situation. you test kids in 2nd grade and you find a kid with 'the' marker or trait or whatever. What then? Do you lock him up then? He's gonna do it at some point whether it be him getting an F on his math test or dumped or evicted from his home.....somethings going to set him off.

 I personally don't think we'll ever be able to 'find' whatever it is that sets these people off. I don't think it's something that will register on a test. I think it falls in line with consciousness meaning man can't prove how we have consciousness scientifically...I don't think we'll ever know 'why' these nuts do what they do.

It's my personal belief that the 'mental illness' defense of a large majority of these a$$hats is a sham and they are fully aware of what they are doing. I'm not saying that some of these murderers aren't mentally ill.....but for example.....the Colorado Shooter. He's not mentally ill. He knew what he was doing, kept notebooks of the stuff....talked to his therapist about it, planned it out from escape routes to time of movie. I think he WANTED to be mentally ill for the celebrity of it all ALA Charles Manson. But he's no more mentally ill than I am and I'd have executed him the day after he was found guilty. The only thing to learn from him is that he played the system to the max and now will live out the remainder of his days in better conditions that most of the worlds population.

When it comes to these cold blooded killers who have NO DEFENSE AT ALL  for killing the people they kill......I have a very big crisis of Faith because I know what I'm 'supposed' to do and think according to my Faith. But the emotion of it all overwhelms me and I get ticked to no end and think these people should just be removed from the equation forever. Probably not the most compassionate thing to do but it seems like the most logical.
I posted this in a thread where we were discussing that asshole German Wings pilot, and it's definitely applicable to your point:

Quote from: Me
Coincidentally I read a bit about famed clock tower enthusiast Charles Whitman this morning. Here's some loser who murders his wife and mom and then shoots enough strangers to give Sergeant Hartman wood before finally shooting it out with cops and a couple of armed civvies (fuck yeah, Texas!). Real easy to think terribly of this guy. Turns out that he sought help for delusions and paranoia and found none. In his very thoughtful suicide note he implores the coroner to find out why he lost his mind. Turns out he had a 1" tumor mashing up against his amygdala. That would be enough to turn Gandhi into a bloodthirsty psychopath. His actions were absolutely the fault of a physiological flaw that he didn't want and couldn't understand, the remorse he expressed and the importance he placed on being understood in his suicide note make that pretty clear, yet he's still thought of as a real asshole for his actions. I have no idea what the motivations of the German pilot were, it's entirely possible that he was an asshole/loser (which I've flippantly called him myself). It's also perfectly likely that the dude was really fucked up. You mentioned in your post that things seem to be getting worse. I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know that we certainly haven't gotten any better at distinguishing between those two possibilities.

Moreover, without getting into a big deal about Freewill, where we're just not going to agree at all, I don't think you could argue that Freewill exists when there's a physiological condition altering one's cognitive abilities. While plenty of people do use an insanity defense (which almost never works, by the way), the truth is that a lot of sick people are denied that option because most states don't actually use reasonable characteristics to determine what qualifies. Mr. Whitman up there wouldn't have been considered insane because he knew precisely what he was doing, despite the fact that factors outside of his control were forcing his actions against his will.

None of this is meant as a defense to Shitbag Anchor-Dude or the German Wings pilot. I'm of the opinion those are just a couple of assholes. I just think it's important that we understand all of the factors we could be dealing with.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #139 on: August 27, 2015, 08:54:50 AM »
I totally understand where you're coming from on this Brian. But, in the extremely rare case that we'd actually be able to figure out 'what' makes 'them' do it.....what do you do then? It's almost a Minority Report situation. you test kids in 2nd grade and you find a kid with 'the' marker or trait or whatever. What then? Do you lock him up then? He's gonna do it at some point whether it be him getting an F on his math test or dumped or evicted from his home.....somethings going to set him off.

 I personally don't think we'll ever be able to 'find' whatever it is that sets these people off. I don't think it's something that will register on a test. I think it falls in line with consciousness meaning man can't prove how we have consciousness scientifically...I don't think we'll ever know 'why' these nuts do what they do.

It's my personal belief that the 'mental illness' defense of a large majority of these a$$hats is a sham and they are fully aware of what they are doing. I'm not saying that some of these murderers aren't mentally ill.....but for example.....the Colorado Shooter. He's not mentally ill. He knew what he was doing, kept notebooks of the stuff....talked to his therapist about it, planned it out from escape routes to time of movie. I think he WANTED to be mentally ill for the celebrity of it all ALA Charles Manson. But he's no more mentally ill than I am and I'd have executed him the day after he was found guilty. The only thing to learn from him is that he played the system to the max and now will live out the remainder of his days in better conditions that most of the worlds population.

When it comes to these cold blooded killers who have NO DEFENSE AT ALL  for killing the people they kill......I have a very big crisis of Faith because I know what I'm 'supposed' to do and think according to my Faith. But the emotion of it all overwhelms me and I get ticked to no end and think these people should just be removed from the equation forever. Probably not the most compassionate thing to do but it seems like the most logical.
I posted this in a thread where we were discussing that asshole German Wings pilot, and it's definitely applicable to your point:

Quote from: Me
Coincidentally I read a bit about famed clock tower enthusiast Charles Whitman this morning. Here's some loser who murders his wife and mom and then shoots enough strangers to give Sergeant Hartman wood before finally shooting it out with cops and a couple of armed civvies (fuck yeah, Texas!). Real easy to think terribly of this guy. Turns out that he sought help for delusions and paranoia and found none. In his very thoughtful suicide note he implores the coroner to find out why he lost his mind. Turns out he had a 1" tumor mashing up against his amygdala. That would be enough to turn Gandhi into a bloodthirsty psychopath. His actions were absolutely the fault of a physiological flaw that he didn't want and couldn't understand, the remorse he expressed and the importance he placed on being understood in his suicide note make that pretty clear, yet he's still thought of as a real asshole for his actions. I have no idea what the motivations of the German pilot were, it's entirely possible that he was an asshole/loser (which I've flippantly called him myself). It's also perfectly likely that the dude was really fucked up. You mentioned in your post that things seem to be getting worse. I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know that we certainly haven't gotten any better at distinguishing between those two possibilities.

Moreover, without getting into a big deal about Freewill, where we're just not going to agree at all, I don't think you could argue that Freewill exists when there's a physiological condition altering one's cognitive abilities. While plenty of people do use an insanity defense (which almost never works, by the way), the truth is that a lot of sick people are denied that option because most states don't actually use reasonable characteristics to determine what qualifies. Mr. Whitman up there wouldn't have been considered insane because he knew precisely what he was doing, despite the fact that factors outside of his control were forcing his actions against his will.

None of this is meant as a defense to Shitbag Anchor-Dude or the German Wings pilot. I'm of the opinion those are just a couple of assholes. I just think it's important that we understand all of the factors we could be dealing with.

Certainly fascinating and both you and Chino (and others) have made legitimate points for studying these guys. I get it. I'll also admit that I'm a dick when it comes to people like this and allow the emotion of the story to get in the way of 'the bigger picture'.....

I still don't know what you do to kids or people who are discovered to have whatever abnormality that causes this behavior. Outside of a tumor or something physical you can remove....what if it's discovered it's genetic or something less 'physical' and unable to just remove it? Then you implement testing...find a porition of the population that are 'at risk' of going psycho and shooting people up. What do you do to them? They've done nothing yet, but we 'know' they will.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind