Author Topic: Condoms and sixth graders.  (Read 8556 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2014, 07:15:22 AM »
I think this is probably true, but maybe considering sex to be "meaningful" (religious contexts notwithstanding) is historically a cultural attempt to match the immense responsibilities and consequences associated with sex with the treatment of careful consideration it probably warrants, since there is really no compelling biological reason to do so.  The advent and prevalence of safe and effective contraception/STD protection is a fairly recent development in the grand scheme.
It just seems to me that it's always the emotional aspect that always gets all of the attention. Like MWS said, it's the emotional damage that they're always on about trying to prevent, and I honestly never got that. These are teenagers we're talking about, and they're going to have their emotional ups and downs with all relationships, sexual or otherwise. Throwing some nookie into the mix only seemed to tally one up in the plus column in my opinion, unless some asshole convinced you that it's a morally and spiritually sacred thing not to be trifled with. That's why I said before that the building up that idea probably does more harm than good.


Ditto. I completely lost my shit for like a year after a falling out with a girl I never even had sex with.

Offline Tick

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2014, 09:13:05 AM »
What exactly are the pitfalls of teenage sex if teenagers are protected? I thought we weren't in the sixties anymore. Don't get me wrong, if I were 13 again, I'd stay away from dudes in general until I'm at least twenty, but the majority of teenagers like each other, and like boning. Most people say that staying away from sex will ensure that they won't get harmed emotionally, but that's 100% not true.
What are the pitfalls of teenage sex?
Well in my estimation its the emotional damage done. The loss of self worth and esteem emotionally from being used. A 14 year old girl does not think as an adult and is not equip to handle all that goes along with being sexually active at that age. Being the slut or whore (even if that's only a perception) is very damaging to a kids psychological well being at that fragile age. Kids are brutal and they talk. That talk has done incredible damage to many a young girl.
Not to mention they just don't understand the difference between love and lust. Even if its just between them and a partner and no one else knows.(which is usually unlikely) The hurts it can cause are often quite lasting well into adulthood.
I think sex as a young teen in damaging far beyond just the prospect of becoming pregnant or acquiring a sexually transmitted disease.
So in my opinion, its not just avoiding an unwanted pregnancy. I think it goes far deeper than that.

I have seen the lasting damage it has done to young girls and what it did to them long term.

Sex is not to be taken lightly, especially when entered into as children who quite often do not have the emotional makeup to handle its pitfalls.

That's what I think. If anything was only as simple as one component. it never is.
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2014, 09:36:50 AM »
Yeah, but I was once a teenage girl, and hung out with other teenage girls, and do believe that if someone wants to call you a slut, they don't need a reason for it. They'll call you a slut if you said yes, they'll call you a slut if you said no, they'll call you a slut for sleeping with one dude you're engaged with, they'll call you a slut if you made out with a dude on a party once. If there's nothing, they'll just make it up.

And if you actually want to have sex, you won't feel "used". I think we should just start assuming that teenagers, by and large, want to have sex. It's a touchy subject if you have a 13-year-old daughter or a 15-year-old nephew or if you teach sixth graders, but we should all face that.

And again, don't get me wrong, I'm always up for delaying sex as far as possible, since chances are you're not a good judge of character when you're young, and you'll hang out with a bunch of stupid people and hook up with them too. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wanted to undo sex or friendship in real life :biggrin: but the solution isn't to just stop having friends and stop having boyfriends. It's a learning experience everyone needs to go through. Like yeah, people will fuck you up, but most of those fuck ups will happen even without the sex. I've been hurt most by falling out with a friend, and falling out with a dude I basically never even kissed.

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Offline Tick

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2014, 09:48:06 AM »

And if you actually want to have sex, you won't feel "used". I think we should just start assuming that teenagers, by and large, want to have sex. It's a touchy subject if you have a 13-year-old daughter or a 15-year-old nephew or if you teach sixth graders, but we should all face that.

Here is where I disagree the most. You are making the assumption that all kids are the same heading into the decision to be seually active.
Sometimes they do it to cover hurts. To feel accepted. To get the love that lacked from there own fathers. Too many scenarios.
They do often feel used, because they don't often get when they entered into it for. So its not that simple by any means.
Sometimes a kid feels they love someone, and sex defines love, only to find out it was a one way street recognizing they were being used for one purpose.
Kids are emotionally fragile, and they do get used...and they often do feel used. That's just part of it all, but that is the truth.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2014, 10:07:24 AM »

And if you actually want to have sex, you won't feel "used". I think we should just start assuming that teenagers, by and large, want to have sex. It's a touchy subject if you have a 13-year-old daughter or a 15-year-old nephew or if you teach sixth graders, but we should all face that.

Here is where I disagree the most. You are making the assumption that all kids are the same heading into the decision to be seually active.
Sometimes they do it to cover hurts. To feel accepted. To get the love that lacked from there own fathers.

I think most of them do it because it's the only thing our entertainment industry seems to care about. I'm going to get the lyrics of the five last played songs on 93.7, a station many young people listen to. Being from CT, I'm sure you know that station.


1) Move That Dope
Woo! Fish scale in the two-door that I fish-tails
Fiberglass, Ferrari leather, in designer shit that I misspell
YUGHH! Look at the clues, the J's, the jewels, I'm actin' a monkey
From sixteen years old, I'm whippin' in kitchens, fuckin' my junkies
Pablo, Versace way before Migos
My dinner plates, no silverware, all you niggas my hijos
Toss a kilo like a free throw, crack house, it had the peephole
Made it through to the other side, now nothing's big as my ego,

2) Partition
Took 45 minutes to get all dressed up
We ain't even gonna make it to this club
Now my mascara runnin', red lipstick smudged
Oh he so horny, yeah he want to fuck
He popped all my buttons and he ripped my blouse
He Monica Lewinski'd all on my gown

  3)Turn on the Lights
Is that her in the VIP-line
With the Vuitton and Yves saint Laurent
Used to drive the Nissan, now she in a Beamer
I don't want 'er cause she from the corner
And I heard that Beamer was a loaner
Her old man, the owner
And I don't even drink Corona's
What type of drink you want girl
I'm champagne forever
I'm dirty Sprite forever
You can come sit with me
If you'd like to change the weather
If you wanna live better
We can buy a crib, wherever

4) We Dem Boyz
Hol up, hol up, hol up, pop a bottle
Hol up, hol up, hol up, if you suck then swallow
Smell that marijuana, they gon' follow
Throwin money on her like she won the lotto
Pussy must be serious
Scared of heights come face your fears
Do it just like Nicki gon' and bend it over

5) Lotus Flower Bomb
Shawty where your baton, racing through my mind like
She heard that I got that work, I heard that she been on strike
Care to tell, I read your mind, she been on them dollars first
Caramel macchiatos when shawty get into work
I can be your boyfriend be your nigga or a friend with perks


We've glorified getting drunk and one night hook-ups in a way no other era of music has. I hear parents call in and say shit like "Nothin' just driving my kids to school" or "My kids and I love your show".


Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2014, 11:34:56 AM »
Yeah, but regardless of why they wanna have sex, they still wanna have it. And there are tons of things that a child can partake in to get rid of hurts, or because of peer pressure, I don't know why we're singling out protected sex as some sort of a big deal :corn is it really an American thing? I'm also living in a pretty strict, some would say completely backwards, country, and my mom regularly calls me to make sure I don't stay up late, and she scoffs at me if I wanna sleep over at my boyfriend's house, etc. But, in my widest peer circle, sex was always something you do once you find someone you like enough, and it was never a big deal, or immoral, regardless of whether you've been with the dude/girl for two weeks or a year. I think I can remember, like, one person who was ever nervous about it.

 Yeah, people can get hurt, but I'm sure that all the talking about that is way overblown, and that not enough attention is brought to, let's say, toxic friendships, or recognizing first signs of abuse. That shit can fuck you up for life. But no, let's just tell kids that they have to invest a pointless amount of stress in their GPA, and make sure that they take a vow of chastity until they're 18 or something ::)

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Offline Tick

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2014, 11:43:37 AM »
I'm not saying growing up is all about abstinence till age 18 or the pressure of a high GPA.
No issue like this is simple and its different things to different people. Sex is complex and the ramifications are different for each person individually.
Many valid points can be made regarding this, and I hope you read at least some validity in the thoughts I presented, Mora?
 :tup
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2014, 11:53:54 AM »
Yeah, but regardless of why they wanna have sex, they still wanna have it. And there are tons of things that a child can partake in to get rid of hurts, or because of peer pressure, I don't know why we're singling out protected sex as some sort of a big deal :corn is it really an American thing? I'm also living in a pretty strict, some would say completely backwards, country, and my mom regularly calls me to make sure I don't stay up late, and she scoffs at me if I wanna sleep over at my boyfriend's house, etc. But, in my widest peer circle, sex was always something you do once you find someone you like enough, and it was never a big deal, or immoral, regardless of whether you've been with the dude/girl for two weeks or a year. I think I can remember, like, one person who was ever nervous about it.
Nah, the Kenyans and Sudanese seem to have some hangups about sex, as well.




I'm not saying growing up is all about abstinence till age 18 or the pressure of a high GPA.
No issue like this is simple and its different things to different people. Sex is complex and the ramifications are different for each person individually.
Many valid points can be made regarding this, and I hope you read at least some validity in the thoughts I presented, Mora?
 :tup
This is all well and good (and I agree with it). The problem is that by creating a society-wide mores about how life-shatteringly dangerous sex for young people is, you're creating a one size fits all solution, which you and I are both opposed to. For all of the young people who are trying to make up for daddy's love, there are plenty who just want to get their rocks off, and by teaching them that it'll fuck up their lives forever you're not helping any of them.

And as we've seen bogus anti-drug education, you're also further cementing the idea that adults full of shit.
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2014, 12:10:47 PM »
I'm with El Barto, and for every parent like you (you really love your daughter and will have things to teach her), there are ten parents who lack basic hindsight and wisdom. As far as moms go, mine is awesome, but most of what she taught me about practical life has been outdated for thirty years. I wish I had gotten a mental health talk instead of her sex talk, or directions on which choice of profession will get me out of this shithole instead of her drug talk.

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2014, 07:15:29 AM »
As a parent of a 17-year old and an 11-year old (both daughters), I am glad that my wife and I have open communication with them and that in addition, they have received substantial and thorough sex education at the school they both attended.  I am worried about a lot of things with them, but this is one area about which I'm not too concerned.  Even if they make a choice of which I might disapprove, I have confidence that they will take the right precautions.

I wish every father could say that, because that's really the best you can hope for with them still having freedom.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2014, 07:28:18 AM »
As a parent of a 17-year old and an 11-year old (both daughters), I am glad that my wife and I have open communication with them and that in addition, they have received substantial and thorough sex education at the school they both attended.  I am worried about a lot of things with them, but this is one area about which I'm not too concerned.  Even if they make a choice of which I might disapprove, I have confidence that they will take the right precautions.

I wish every father could say that, because that's really the best you can hope for with them still having freedom.

I applaud this.

Offline Tick

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2014, 08:03:17 AM »
As a parent of a 17-year old and an 11-year old (both daughters), I am glad that my wife and I have open communication with them and that in addition, they have received substantial and thorough sex education at the school they both attended.  I am worried about a lot of things with them, but this is one area about which I'm not too concerned.  Even if they make a choice of which I might disapprove, I have confidence that they will take the right precautions.

I wish every father could say that, because that's really the best you can hope for with them still having freedom.
I hear ya Hef! My daughter gets uncomfortable when my wife tells her things about her sexual past. She squirms a bit, but she gets it. Better to be real with kids. They are too smart and savvy not to be.
 So I don't know when she will make the choice to have sex but I feel she will approach it intelligently.
The same goes for drugs. She is honest will us that a couple of her friends smoke cigarettes, and one even smokes pot.
That transparency makes  me comfortable because when she shares with us we don't lose our minds on her.
We just tell her to really think of the consequences for every choice she makes. We found out she shared a cigarette with a friend a couple years back. She tried it and hated it. We were pissed and she was punished, but she understood why.
Sex is going to happen at some point. I'm not going to like it, but I don't think at this point that is at the forefront in her mind.
One year at a time we try our best to raise this kid to make smart choices. So far so good, but we understand much of whats coming is out of our hands and she will have final say.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2014, 08:09:51 AM »
Well, Tick, father to father, and you already know this, but all you can do is all you can do.  At a certain point, all the decisions they make are up to them, and they all have consequences, whether major or minor, good or bad.

Sometimes, we just have to be there to help pick up the pieces after an unfortunate consequence.  Sometimes, that's what they need most.  Sometimes, that is the only way they learn, no matter how hard we try to prevent it.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2014, 08:21:35 AM »
Well, Tick, father to father, and you already know this, but all you can do is all you can do.  At a certain point, all the decisions they make are up to them, and they all have consequences, whether major or minor, good or bad.

Sometimes, we just have to be there to help pick up the pieces after an unfortunate consequence.  Sometimes, that's what they need most.  Sometimes, that is the only way they learn, no matter how hard we try to prevent it.

As someone who was a drunk, managed to fall off a building, and then completely turned his life around, I can't stress enough how fortunate I was to have down to Earth parents.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 08:29:50 AM by Chino »

Offline Tick

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2014, 08:46:39 AM »
Well, Tick, father to father, and you already know this, but all you can do is all you can do.  At a certain point, all the decisions they make are up to them, and they all have consequences, whether major or minor, good or bad.

Sometimes, we just have to be there to help pick up the pieces after an unfortunate consequence.  Sometimes, that's what they need most.  Sometimes, that is the only way they learn, no matter how hard we try to prevent it.

As someone who was a drunk, managed to fall off a building, and then completely turned his life around, I can't stress enough how fortunate I was to have down to Earth parents.
Chino, being a complete fuckup as a kid and having a maniac for a father, I feel being a good father is the most important task that has ever been assigned to me in life.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2014, 03:38:03 PM »
Well, Tick, father to father, and you already know this, but all you can do is all you can do.  At a certain point, all the decisions they make are up to them, and they all have consequences, whether major or minor, good or bad.

Sometimes, we just have to be there to help pick up the pieces after an unfortunate consequence.  Sometimes, that's what they need most.  Sometimes, that is the only way they learn, no matter how hard we try to prevent it.

As someone who was a drunk, managed to fall off a building, and then completely turned his life around, I can't stress enough how fortunate I was to have down to Earth parents.

You were a drunk at 20/21?

Offline Chino

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2014, 11:06:13 AM »
Well, Tick, father to father, and you already know this, but all you can do is all you can do.  At a certain point, all the decisions they make are up to them, and they all have consequences, whether major or minor, good or bad.

Sometimes, we just have to be there to help pick up the pieces after an unfortunate consequence.  Sometimes, that's what they need most.  Sometimes, that is the only way they learn, no matter how hard we try to prevent it.

As someone who was a drunk, managed to fall off a building, and then completely turned his life around, I can't stress enough how fortunate I was to have down to Earth parents.

You were a drunk at 20/21?

Maybe not a raging alcoholic in need of rehab, but a drunk... sure.

Offline Tick

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2014, 12:03:16 PM »
Well, Tick, father to father, and you already know this, but all you can do is all you can do.  At a certain point, all the decisions they make are up to them, and they all have consequences, whether major or minor, good or bad.

Sometimes, we just have to be there to help pick up the pieces after an unfortunate consequence.  Sometimes, that's what they need most.  Sometimes, that is the only way they learn, no matter how hard we try to prevent it.

As someone who was a drunk, managed to fall off a building, and then completely turned his life around, I can't stress enough how fortunate I was to have down to Earth parents.

You were a drunk at 20/21?
Is that shocking to you? It sure isn't to me.
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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2014, 12:08:26 PM »
This is a tough issue. So this post is just a musing, and not really an argument per se.

From the start, it must be recognized that there is no such thing as "safe" sex. Sex is inherently dangerous, both physically and psychologically, no matter what precautions you take. And if it ain't dangerous, it ain't sexy. We are kidding ourselves if we think we can teach "safe" sex (and to children at that).

The real difficulty here is in predicting the consequences of making available birth control measures. Will it really help teen pregnancy rates? I'm skeptical that there's a straight line between more birth-control and less pregnancies. Heck, grown-ass men and women have condoms and contraceptives at their fingertips, and still we have plenty of unwanted pregnancies.

So it seems that we shouldn't expect these efforts to be necessarily beneficial. But I can see some obvious downsides. Mainly, it perpetuates the over-sexualization of our culture by putting its stamp of approval on the recklessness of adolescent sexuality. As a person interested in resisting this cultural trend, I'm inclined to resist handing out birth control to pre-teens (and teens in general). In addition, it promotes dangerous behavior among kids. Like I said, no such thing as "safe" sex. Also (contra Milena), I think it demeans the value of sexuality to encourage loose sex like this. I don't mean to be cliche or corny. But is there anything more human than sexuality? Is there anything more fragile? Is there anything closer to the core of our identity? Plenty of people when given the chance of taking back one of their experiences name one a sexual nature. We are walking on thin ice with this stuff.

Like I said, it's a tough call. On the one hand, sex without unwanted pregnancies is better than sex with unwanted pregnancies. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that handing out condoms will really work, and it potentially advances this cultural trend of loose sex.

One other thing, to the argument that "kids are gonna do it anyway, so you might as well give them condoms," we really ought to give kids more credit than that. Believe it or not, kids can be responsible and moral people. They are not sex-crazed machines like some people here seem to be insinuating.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline El Barto

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2014, 12:31:40 PM »
Nothing in life is ever safe. We do our damnedest to make things "safer," but safety itself is illusory. This to me is much like driving. It's generally the most dangerous thing we do on a daily basis, and moreso for youngins. We teach them to be as safe as possible, and we teach them to be responsible. I see nothing contrary to that in teaching kids that they shouldn't be getting it on yet (if that's where you stand), but if they're going to anyway then they should be as safe as possible about it.
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Offline Tick

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2014, 01:53:55 PM »
This is a tough issue. So this post is just a musing, and not really an argument per se.

From the start, it must be recognized that there is no such thing as "safe" sex. Sex is inherently dangerous, both physically and psychologically, no matter what precautions you take. And if it ain't dangerous, it ain't sexy. We are kidding ourselves if we think we can teach "safe" sex (and to children at that).

The real difficulty here is in predicting the consequences of making available birth control measures. Will it really help teen pregnancy rates? I'm skeptical that there's a straight line between more birth-control and less pregnancies. Heck, grown-ass men and women have condoms and contraceptives at their fingertips, and still we have plenty of unwanted pregnancies.

So it seems that we shouldn't expect these efforts to be necessarily beneficial. But I can see some obvious downsides. Mainly, it perpetuates the over-sexualization of our culture by putting its stamp of approval on the recklessness of adolescent sexuality. As a person interested in resisting this cultural trend, I'm inclined to resist handing out birth control to pre-teens (and teens in general). In addition, it promotes dangerous behavior among kids. Like I said, no such thing as "safe" sex. Also (contra Milena), I think it demeans the value of sexuality to encourage loose sex like this. I don't mean to be cliche or corny. But is there anything more human than sexuality? Is there anything more fragile? Is there anything closer to the core of our identity? Plenty of people when given the chance of taking back one of their experiences name one a sexual nature. We are walking on thin ice with this stuff.

Like I said, it's a tough call. On the one hand, sex without unwanted pregnancies is better than sex with unwanted pregnancies. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that handing out condoms will really work, and it potentially advances this cultural trend of loose sex.

One other thing, to the argument that "kids are gonna do it anyway, so you might as well give them condoms," we really ought to give kids more credit than that. Believe it or not, kids can be responsible and moral people. They are not sex-crazed machines like some people here seem to be insinuating.
Good thoughts for sure. We have entered an age where the mantra is...
"They are going to do it anyway so lets give them the best chance to do so without consequence."

So it comes down to where you stand philosophically as a human on that mindset. It's a new age with many a new approach to lots of issues.
As a parent, I don't want a boy in 6th grade being given a condom so he basically feels he is being told its not necessarily something we condone but if your going to screw that 12 year old girl use one of these to protect yourself.
Nah...I can't get behind that.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2014, 02:20:10 PM »
This is a tough issue. So this post is just a musing, and not really an argument per se.

From the start, it must be recognized that there is no such thing as "safe" sex. Sex is inherently dangerous, both physically and psychologically, no matter what precautions you take. And if it ain't dangerous, it ain't sexy. We are kidding ourselves if we think we can teach "safe" sex (and to children at that).

The real difficulty here is in predicting the consequences of making available birth control measures. Will it really help teen pregnancy rates? I'm skeptical that there's a straight line between more birth-control and less pregnancies. Heck, grown-ass men and women have condoms and contraceptives at their fingertips, and still we have plenty of unwanted pregnancies.

So it seems that we shouldn't expect these efforts to be necessarily beneficial. But I can see some obvious downsides. Mainly, it perpetuates the over-sexualization of our culture by putting its stamp of approval on the recklessness of adolescent sexuality. As a person interested in resisting this cultural trend, I'm inclined to resist handing out birth control to pre-teens (and teens in general). In addition, it promotes dangerous behavior among kids. Like I said, no such thing as "safe" sex. Also (contra Milena), I think it demeans the value of sexuality to encourage loose sex like this. I don't mean to be cliche or corny. But is there anything more human than sexuality? Is there anything more fragile? Is there anything closer to the core of our identity? Plenty of people when given the chance of taking back one of their experiences name one a sexual nature. We are walking on thin ice with this stuff.

Like I said, it's a tough call. On the one hand, sex without unwanted pregnancies is better than sex with unwanted pregnancies. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that handing out condoms will really work, and it potentially advances this cultural trend of loose sex.

One other thing, to the argument that "kids are gonna do it anyway, so you might as well give them condoms," we really ought to give kids more credit than that. Believe it or not, kids can be responsible and moral people. They are not sex-crazed machines like some people here seem to be insinuating.
Good thoughts for sure. We have entered an age where the mantra is...
"They are going to do it anyway so lets give them the best chance to do so without consequence."

Well, I think that also stems in part from the fact that we are in an age where many adults themselves never were taught and/or never bothered to learn self control and feel that they cannot withstand the urge, whenever and wherever it strikes.  "I can't help it, I'm a sexual being" and "if it feels good, just do it" are the prevailing philosophy.  So it is no wonder those same adults not only project that onto kids and assume kids must be the same, but also fail to teach kids self-control.
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2014, 07:08:43 PM »
On the other hand, there is no guarantee that handing out condoms will really work, and it potentially advances this cultural trend of loose sex.

I agree that there is no guarantee that handing out condoms will really work, but similarly: is there any guarantee that it will advance the cultural trend of loose sex? I realize that you said potentially, and that you aren't necessarily advocating that it will spur on the cultural trend, but I think it ought to be asked anyways and I'm honestly curious. Is there any data out there that might suggest handing out contraceptives increases incidences of teenage sex (or sex in general)? On instinct alone, I would imagine that there is just as little evidence to suggest harm as there is evidence to suggest success, but I'd love to see some data one way or the other. But like I said, I have nothing to back that up. And until I've seen it, I'll probably remain highly skeptical about the strategy (if that's even the right word) and stick by what El Barto said.


Nothing in life is ever safe. We do our damnedest to make things "safer," but safety itself is illusory. This to me is much like driving. It's generally the most dangerous thing we do on a daily basis, and moreso for youngins. We teach them to be as safe as possible, and we teach them to be responsible. I see nothing contrary to that in teaching kids that they shouldn't be getting it on yet (if that's where you stand), but if they're going to anyway then they should be as safe as possible about it.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2014, 07:46:29 PM »
This is a tough issue. So this post is just a musing, and not really an argument per se.

From the start, it must be recognized that there is no such thing as "safe" sex. Sex is inherently dangerous, both physically and psychologically, no matter what precautions you take. And if it ain't dangerous, it ain't sexy. We are kidding ourselves if we think we can teach "safe" sex (and to children at that).

The real difficulty here is in predicting the consequences of making available birth control measures. Will it really help teen pregnancy rates? I'm skeptical that there's a straight line between more birth-control and less pregnancies. Heck, grown-ass men and women have condoms and contraceptives at their fingertips, and still we have plenty of unwanted pregnancies.

So it seems that we shouldn't expect these efforts to be necessarily beneficial. But I can see some obvious downsides. Mainly, it perpetuates the over-sexualization of our culture by putting its stamp of approval on the recklessness of adolescent sexuality. As a person interested in resisting this cultural trend, I'm inclined to resist handing out birth control to pre-teens (and teens in general). In addition, it promotes dangerous behavior among kids. Like I said, no such thing as "safe" sex. Also (contra Milena), I think it demeans the value of sexuality to encourage loose sex like this. I don't mean to be cliche or corny. But is there anything more human than sexuality? Is there anything more fragile? Is there anything closer to the core of our identity? Plenty of people when given the chance of taking back one of their experiences name one a sexual nature. We are walking on thin ice with this stuff.

Like I said, it's a tough call. On the one hand, sex without unwanted pregnancies is better than sex with unwanted pregnancies. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that handing out condoms will really work, and it potentially advances this cultural trend of loose sex.

One other thing, to the argument that "kids are gonna do it anyway, so you might as well give them condoms," we really ought to give kids more credit than that. Believe it or not, kids can be responsible and moral people. They are not sex-crazed machines like some people here seem to be insinuating.
Good thoughts for sure. We have entered an age where the mantra is...
"They are going to do it anyway so lets give them the best chance to do so without consequence."

Well, I think that also stems in part from the fact that we are in an age where many adults themselves never were taught and/or never bothered to learn self control and feel that they cannot withstand the urge, whenever and wherever it strikes.  "I can't help it, I'm a sexual being" and "if it feels good, just do it" are the prevailing philosophy.  So it is no wonder those same adults not only project that onto kids and assume kids must be the same, but also fail to teach kids self-control.

While I respect your desires to resist those urges, and agree with your logic, I do disagree with your suggestion that an age has ever existed where this was not the case, or that such an age might actually come to be. Not because I think it's impossible, but because I don't think there's a damn thing we could do otherwise. We might dream about what the world could be, or might be, but in the end, we just have to deal with the world we have.

We're all a mix of faults, and virtues. and I think your too dismissive of the opposing viewpoint. Sure, there may be some people who are base for baseness sake. But there are also a great deal many people who might indulge in certain urges you deem inappropriate for very rational, personal, or spiritual reasons. Self control isn't really an issue.



Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2014, 06:48:11 AM »
I'm totes with Scheavo here. Not everyone has the same conception of morals. If I had a twelve year old and they told me they wanted to have sex, I wouldn't just throw condoms at them and send them off on their merry way without stopping to talk first. I'm not a fan of the "everyone has a choice to do things they like, if it's their own choice it's automatically good and valid"-philosophy. But yes, if we KNOW it's happening, it's completely irresponsible to just look away and pray that it won't be our children. We need to supply kids with consulting and protection.

I'm skeptical that there's a straight line between more birth-control and less pregnancies.
Uhm, birth control is literally made for that. Like, "we still have plenty of unwanted pregnancies" is only plenty when you assume there should be zero pregnancies. But if you know how to use different contraceptives, the fail rate combined is like less than 1%. So I'd rather assume that those responsible adults in the post of yours are lenient or haven't been educated properly, which is a problem.

You can't deny mainstream culture is fast-forwardly literally made into porn, and that porn is subsequently being normalized. We have "sexy" ads for goddamned hamburgers and milkshakes, and because of the convenience of "responsible adults", a twelve year old boy can do a google search for "sex" (maybe hoping to see some titties) and run into a video of three dudes penetrating a woman at once. If this is something that makes you uncomfortable, stop supporting porn, start making it harder to find, stop supporting businesses and industries which thrive on sexualization. But that's hard work. It's easier to just tell kids they can't have sex because of reasons. ::)

edit: I'm pretty surprised that porn is the elephant in the room in all of these discussions. We wonder whether we'll encourage kids to have sex if we give them a condom or if they listen to a radio station where Miley Cyrus is inserting sexual innuendo in her songs. But we never stop to think that in three clicks our kids can get dangerous ideas about how sex is supposed to look like, through porn. And EVERYONE sees it. And accidents happen. But people don't talk about it because they love their porn too and they want it available in three clicks.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 07:02:27 AM by MoraWintersoul »

Quote
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Offline Tick

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2014, 07:16:49 AM »
There was a golden age when Family was paramount. Family values and morality was taught in the home to kids growing up. Even if it was a facade and fantasy to a large degree, it still had an impact in the way kids went about there business. At least they had the perception in there minds that having sex was not something they should be doing at that age. Kids grew up trying a bit harder to uphold a degree of moral standard. I believe that standard produced a better result than the philosophy of today, imo. Then you hit adulthood and if you were lucky, you didn't  have 2 kids already and some disease to go along with them. (of coarse I came from extreme disfunction in my home so none of this applied to me! :biggrin:)

As a society we have advanced by getting to the point we will consider offering up protection for young children to have protected sex.  Not everyone finds this concept a wise one. I do not.

I will say again that if you hand a condom to a 12 year old boy, whether you think so or not you are condoning the act of having sex in that boys mind. Of that I am convinced.

And if my daughter at 12 years of age said she had sex with Johnny, but don't worry cause our teacher gave him a condom and he used it!  I would want rip that teachers fucking head off.
 

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Offline Chino

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2014, 07:27:14 AM »
It is very rare that this happens, but I 100% agree with Tick on this one.

We've glorified sex to the point where you can't go anywhere and not see it. Just go through a check out line at Stop & Shop and look at the magazines staring your kids straight in the face. You went from teens watching shows like The Brady Bunch and Different Strokes to watching Jersey Shore, Teen Mom, etc..

I love listening to Elvis Duran & The Morning Show every day on my morning commute. Some of it is pretty stupid and for morons, but it makes me laugh on my 1.5 hour commute. What really boils my blood is mothers (yes, it's always mothers) call in saying "I listen to you every morning with my kids". This show talks about partying, drinking, and sex every 10 seconds. Not to mention they do things on air like vibrator races. Yet, these mothers have no problem with their kids, who are 'too young to understand', listening to this crap all the time. Sure, your 8 year old might not know what a vibrator is, but they know what Google is.

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2014, 07:34:48 AM »
It is very rare that this happens, but I 100% agree with Tick on this one.

We've glorified sex to the point where you can't go anywhere and not see it. Just go through a check out line at Stop & Shop and look at the magazines staring your kids straight in the face. You went from teens watching shows like The Brady Bunch and Different Strokes to watching Jersey Shore, Teen Mom, etc..

I love listening to Elvis Duran & The Morning Show every day on my morning commute. Some of it is pretty stupid and for morons, but it makes me laugh on my 1.5 hour commute. What really boils my blood is mothers (yes, it's always mothers) call in saying "I listen to you every morning with my kids". This show talks about partying, drinking, and sex every 10 seconds. Not to mention they do things on air like vibrator races. Yet, these mothers have no problem with their kids, who are 'too young to understand', listening to this crap all the time. Sure, your 8 year old might not know what a vibrator is, but they know what Google is.
The next time your going to do this can you alert me first so I can take my blood pressure medicine! :omg:

Oh wait, I don't take blood pressure medicine. :justjen

Ok...the next time you do this can you alert me first so I can consult with my doctor to see if I need to take blood pressure medicine. :tup
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2014, 08:23:28 AM »
While I agree that we have become hyper-sexualized as a society, and that it's embedded in our culture on so many different levels, there seems to be a very fundamental disagreement here.

I will say again that if you hand a condom to a 12 year old boy, whether you think so or not you are condoning the act of having sex in that boys mind. Of that I am convinced.

I simply disagree, and think you may not be giving 12 year old boys enough credit. In my mind, a 12 year old boy who is responsible (yes, I do think they exist) will look at distribution of contraceptives as not condoning but encouraging relatively responsible decision making. I emphasize relatively because I think that responsible kids will also recognize having sex at 12 as irresponsible, regardless of whether or not there is a condom. Also, in this case, it's not like the condoms are being handed out in the front of every classroom. From what I understand, the students have to actively seek them out by going to speak with a counselor, school nurse, etc. Which, to me at least, seems to suggest that the kids getting these condoms have already made the decision that they want to have sex. And if that is the case, and the decision has been made (and presumably we want to prevent future poor decision making), shouldn't we be more concerned about what makes these kids have sex in the first place? Unless the real point you're making is that contraception availability is responsible for a significant amount of this promiscuity, which I don't think you are (correct me if I'm wrong).

I think I may also be generally less suspicious about what's going on in the minds of 12 year old boys. Sure, most 12 year old boys get excited about the prospect of getting some, but I think most are also terrified by the idea and I don't think making condoms available will necessarily change that.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2014, 08:27:24 AM »


I think I may also be generally less suspicious about what's going on in the minds of 12 year old boys. Sure, most 12 year old boys get excited about the prospect of getting some, but I think most are also terrified by the idea and I don't think making condoms available will necessarily change that.

When I was 12, I carved my name into my arm, took a friend's monther's car for a joy ride when he handed me the keys, and burned down a 50+ foot pine tree in my yard. 12 year olds are are really stupid and get a thrill out of doing things meant for adults.

Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2014, 08:36:24 AM »
Maybe. But you were also an exceptional 12 year old boy, by the sound of it  :lol
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2014, 08:43:36 AM »


I think I may also be generally less suspicious about what's going on in the minds of 12 year old boys. Sure, most 12 year old boys get excited about the prospect of getting some, but I think most are also terrified by the idea and I don't think making condoms available will necessarily change that.

When I was 12, I carved my name into my arm, took a friend's monther's car for a joy ride when he handed me the keys, and burned down a 50+ foot pine tree in my yard.
That is not typical of 12 year old boys.  You are a freak and it's a miracle you've lived this long.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2014, 08:48:48 AM »
Tick/Chino (henceforth referred to as Chick whenever you two agree): Nostalgia doesn't solve any problems. If anything it delays solving them. The change you guys are talking about has followed the increasing connectedness of society. You're appreciating a time when the average person never ventured more than three miles from the place he was born (and there's nothing wrong with appreciating that simpler approach). Ever since people have been more exposed to different aspects of culture, there's been increasing alarm about the change that it brought with it. When radio started exposing white people to that awful negro music of KC and NYC, people freaked out about what they rightly saw as increased sexualization of society. When Dick Clark started showing everybody what the cool kids in Cali were wearing and dancing to, they had the same problem. When the internet started showing people how bizarre Japanese people screw, same story. The point is that the radio, television and the internet are all valuable improvements in technology, and like most change, there will always be good with the bad. I say that the good outweighs the bad in these instances and the trick is to learn how to mitigate the bad. Rather than pining for the days when Carl's Jr didn't show hot chicks in their underwear to sell shitty burgers, you'd be better off trying to navigate your way around the pitfalls. Next best option would be to become modern Luddites.

Regardless, it seems both of y'all are doing just fine. Be intelligent and sensible. Raise intelligent and sensible kids. Understand the pitfalls and everything will be fine. In the mean time, realize that others won't get this and that the increased availability are for them; not y'alls kids and be happy they're out there.
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Offline Tick

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2014, 08:51:18 AM »
While I agree that we have become hyper-sexualized as a society, and that it's embedded in our culture on so many different levels, there seems to be a very fundamental disagreement here.

I will say again that if you hand a condom to a 12 year old boy, whether you think so or not you are condoning the act of having sex in that boys mind. Of that I am convinced.

I simply disagree, and think you may not be giving 12 year old boys enough credit. In my mind, a 12 year old boy who is responsible (yes, I do think they exist) will look at distribution of contraceptives as not condoning but encouraging relatively responsible decision making. I emphasize relatively because I think that responsible kids will also recognize having sex at 12 as irresponsible, regardless of whether or not there is a condom. Also, in this case, it's not like the condoms are being handed out in the front of every classroom. From what I understand, the students have to actively seek them out by going to speak with a counselor, school nurse, etc. Which, to me at least, seems to suggest that the kids getting these condoms have already made the decision that they want to have sex. And if that is the case, and the decision has been made (and presumably we want to prevent future poor decision making), shouldn't we be more concerned about what makes these kids have sex in the first place? Unless the real point you're making is that contraception availability is responsible for a significant amount of this promiscuity, which I don't think you are (correct me if I'm wrong).

I think I may also be generally less suspicious about what's going on in the minds of 12 year old boys. Sure, most 12 year old boys get excited about the prospect of getting some, but I think most are also terrified by the idea and I don't think making condoms available will necessarily change that.
I was a nightmare at 12 in many ways, but I was not having sex!
If a 12 year old boy has made the decision they are going to have sex and speaks to a guidance counselor, I'm sorry but the end result should not be giving them some condoms so they can go safely fuck another parents 12 year old girl! Its that counselors responsibility to look out for the girls in that school and explain to the boy the ramifications of why he should NOT be having sex at this time. I understand    what they think they are doing but guess what, it's wrong.
I hope the kid choosing the guidance counselors daughter. Seriously, who  do these people think they are making these decisions? It simply isn't there place.
I see this as 100% wrong and NOT their place to distribute condoms to middle school kids. Seriously, it's this kind of logic that is leading us down a road to ruin. Once again...my opinion!


I think I may also be generally less suspicious about what's going on in the minds of 12 year old boys. Sure, most 12 year old boys get excited about the prospect of getting some, but I think most are also terrified by the idea and I don't think making condoms available will necessarily change that.

When I was 12, I carved my name into my arm, took a friend's monther's car for a joy ride when he handed me the keys, and burned down a 50+ foot pine tree in my yard.
That is not typical of 12 year old boys.  You are a freak and it's a miracle you've lived this long.
Oh yeah...well the stuff I was doing at age 12 makes Chino look like a choir boy, and I am not joking one bit.
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Offline Tick

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Re: Condoms and sixth graders.
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2014, 08:55:37 AM »
Tick/Chino (henceforth referred to as Chick whenever you two agree): Nostalgia doesn't solve any problems. If anything it delays solving them. The change you guys are talking about has followed the increasing connectedness of society. You're appreciating a time when the average person never ventured more than three miles from the place he was born (and there's nothing wrong with appreciating that simpler approach). Ever since people have been more exposed to different aspects of culture, there's been increasing alarm about the change that it brought with it. When radio started exposing white people to that awful negro music of KC and NYC, people freaked out about what they rightly saw as increased sexualization of society. When Dick Clark started showing everybody what the cool kids in Cali were wearing and dancing to, they had the same problem. When the internet started showing people how bizarre Japanese people screw, same story. The point is that the radio, television and the internet are all valuable improvements in technology, and like most change, there will always be good with the bad. I say that the good outweighs the bad in these instances and the trick is to learn how to mitigate the bad. Rather than pining for the days when Carl's Jr didn't show hot chicks in their underwear to sell shitty burgers, you'd be better off trying to navigate your way around the pitfalls. Next best option would be to become modern Luddites.

Regardless, it seems both of y'all are doing just fine. Be intelligent and sensible. Raise intelligent and sensible kids. Understand the pitfalls and everything will be fine. In the mean time, realize that others won't get this and that the increased availability are for them; not y'alls kids and be happy they're out there.
Just keep in mind...the reason we are no longer in that hokey time and age is partially due to the awesome forward thinking that has brought us to the awesome precipice our children have arrived at today!

Sing it Louis!..."What a wonderful world!"
 :tup
Yup. Tick is dead on.  She's not your type.  Move on.   Tick is Obi Wan Kenobi