New Live Release: BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL discussion thread

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm a jewel case guy.  They fit nicely in my shelves.  Jewel cases are different sizes and mess everything up for us music OCD folks.

I think you mean digipaks there.

Anyway, the problem I have with jewel cases is that they sometimes tend to crack on me, and if it's an important album, like anything by Dream Theater, it means that I have to find another less important CD, and cannibalize the jewel case from that.

Of course, Digipaks have plastic parts, and if those crack you can't even replace them, so there's that. Both have their ups and downs. But I do like the presentation of a Digipak better.

[me7]

Anyway, the problem I have with jewel cases is that they sometimes tend to crack on me, and if it's an important album, like anything by Dream Theater, it means that I have to find another less important CD, and cannibalize the jewel case from that.

Of course, Digipaks have plastic parts, and if those crack you can't even replace them, so there's that. Both have their ups and downs. But I do like the presentation of a Digipak better.

Digipaks are made out of paper that can tear, deform and pale over time, yet you worry about the plastic parts

[Mladen]

I got the Bluray only package, I don't have a problem with it.

DT's worst packaging ever was the Special Edition of BC&SL.

Bleh, digipaks need to die a horrible painful death. The BTFW DVD is about as good as I've seen though. Pretty good packaging, and the disc holder doesn't suck. I do hate overlapping discs though.

I actually didn't know how to get the disc out, I was so pissed for a couple of minutes. Now that I've figured it out, it's a good idea. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Digipaks are made out of paper that can tear, deform and pale over time, yet you worry about the plastic parts

CD booklets are made out of paper too, so they can face the same problems. I mean, jewel case or not, people don't buy CDs to marvel at the clear plastic, so if the booklet in a jewel case fades or rips, or deforms, it's not like having a jewel case is somehow going to redeem it.

[BlobVanDam]

Digipaks are made out of paper that can tear, deform and pale over time, yet you worry about the plastic parts

CD booklets are made out of paper too, so they can face the same problems. I mean, jewel case or not, people don't buy CDs to marvel at the clear plastic, so if the booklet in a jewel case fades or rips, or deforms, it's not like having a jewel case is somehow going to redeem it.

If you get a digipak, the cardboard that makes up the actual package is exposed. If it is damaged, too bad. You can't replace anything.
On a jewel case (or a DVD case), the case is replaceable, and protects all of the actual content, such as the booklet / cover. If the jewel case gets damaged, you can replace it. The chances of the contents getting damaged are much much lower, because they're not externally exposed. I've seen plenty of cracked cases, but I've never had the cover/booklet get damaged even when the jewel case breaks.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, I make sure not to spill anything on my CDs. I take good care of them. But with jewel cases, sometimes they're cracked by the time they get to my place. I buy the CD, or order it online, and through minor little bumps, it gets cracked before I even unwrap the shrinkwrapping and I immediately have to replace it. It drives me crazy sometimes.

There's obviously pros and cons to both, but all my digipaks just look so special in my collection. I mean, you have regular albums, and then you have these "special editions" and this way, they really do look special.

[BlobVanDam]

What you call "special" I call "cheap", and inconsistent looking. Each to their own.

[me7]

What you call "special" I call "cheap", and inconsistent looking.

+1

[TheGreatPretender]

What you call "special" I call "cheap", and inconsistent looking. Each to their own.

Lol, well, if you're gonna get all OCD about all your albums looking consistent...

[rumborak]

Was just listening to the bootleg again and noticed that JR flubbed the solo in AFTR a bit. You can also notice it on the DVD, since the solo suddenly moves a little to the left in the balance.

[Hadi]

Awsome and great performance from all the band members, I really like what they did!!!!!

JP: 10/10 JM: 10/10 MM: 10/10 JR: 10/10 JLB: 10/10
I hope  i don't make anyone  sad , but
mix: 6/10
I don't like how the guitar is drowned. I wanted to hear  louder guitars.


Oh by the way, my best favourite live song of all the time is:
Live in Lunapark, The spirit carries on.
I know that it is not related to this one, but i wanted to mention it.


I loved the  looking glass in this release, and of course, illumination theory!

[Grizz]

I don't think the guitar is drowned, especially because it was overbearing live (as always).

[cramx3]

I wouldnt say its drowned either, but its not the clearest.  Kind of muddy IMO.

[The Holy Tune]

Just got my hands on the DVD I ordered, and god it's nearly fantastic! I have to say nearly because of a few points that bothered me. I already had a thread upon how JMX was mixed in so quietly, and it's really obvious in this release. If he was louder, then the DVD would've been far better than how it is now. Also the visual quality isn't as good as I've expected, LALP looked better I guess. And the orchestra would've been used better than it has been, but man I really didn't think they could cope with TDOE, they did a real good job no matter what.

[Kotowboy]

What you call "special" I call "cheap", and inconsistent looking. Each to their own.

Speaking of shitty digipacks - the new Foo Fighters album has a very shoddy package. It's like the Black Clouds 3 CD edition but possibly even worse. 

I wasn't sure about the album before - but now I definitely don't want to buy it.

[the_silent_man]

Is it just me, or has this release not been promoted anywhere bear as much as Luna park was? A lot of people don't seem to know this existed and my local music store (HMV) has only 2 copies of it in stock on release (1 blu-ray, 1 DVD). Also a lot of online articles are still showing clips from Luna park DVD, as if they think it's DT's latest release...

Anyone else feel this way? Seems a lot of people are missing out on one the best live dvds they've had out in years.

[TheGreatPretender]

Is it just me, or has this release not been promoted anywhere bear as much as Luna park was? A lot of people don't seem to know this existed and my local music store (HMV) has only 2 copies of it in stock on release (1 blu-ray, 1 DVD). Also a lot of online articles are still showing clips from Luna park DVD, as if they think it's DT's latest release...

Anyone else feel this way? Seems a lot of people are missing out on one the best live dvds they've had out in years.

Petruccian slip? 

Yeah, you may be right. It sucks, because yeah, it's a fantastic release. But keep in mind how many delays LALP had. They had way more time to promote it and in fact, they NEEDED to, so people wouldn't forget the damn thing was coming, which I think inadvertedly ended up being a much better marketing campaign for the release. It also gave them more time to flesh out what kinds of releases they were going to make for it.

Which does suck, because I'd much rather have a large fancy all inclusive tour book of this one. Or some other kind of super special edition that wasn't just, "It comes with a poster! Yay!"

While it's a great release, and I don't have any complaints about the sound or anything of the sort, it does seem like several things about it were a little rushed.

[ErHaO]

Isn't Luna Park from a different label? Luna Park was Eagle Rocks and this one is Roadrunner, right?

There is probably the difference in marketing.

[TheGreatPretender]

Isn't Luna Park from a different label? Luna Park was Eagle Rocks and this one is Roadrunner, right?

There is probably the difference in marketing.

Wow, you may be right. If that's the reason, it's a damn shame that the very label that's in charge of releasing DT's studio albums does less advertising for them than a label that just picked them up for one live album.

[Grizz]

I feel like RR normally makes more money because of their other big names.

[TheGreatPretender]

I feel like RR normally makes more money because of their other big names.

Yes, but if they have so much money, they should be able to cough up more of it for advertising. DT is no small underground band. They're really well known and well respected, and RR should treat them as such. Although they don't seem to be complaining.

[cramx3]

I feel like RR normally makes more money because of their other big names.

Yes, but if they have so much money, they should be able to cough up more of it for advertising. DT is no small underground band. They're really well known and well respected, and RR should treat them as such. Although they don't seem to be complaining.

I wonder if it could be that Eagle Rock has more at risk than RoadRunner and hence one being more agressive in advertising?  Also with the delays of LaLP, it kind of became more necessary.  DT were still touring with BtFW came out so it may not have been necessary to advertise so much.

[Skeever]

I feel like RR normally makes more money because of their other big names.

Yes, but if they have so much money, they should be able to cough up more of it for advertising. DT is no small underground band. They're really well known and well respected, and RR should treat them as such. Although they don't seem to be complaining.

I think DT's level of success is probably well gauged at this point, and I doubt things have changed for them much in the last 10-15 years. They're not necessarily a growing band anymore. Each album comes out, sells 30k, then the band go out and play the Euro festivals and headlining shows in Europe 2x, North America, South America, and maybe a small stint in Asia. In other words, things are probably very stable and predictable in the world of DT business. Roadrunner probably know very well what resources DT need to maximize profits, and it's a bit niave to think that RR advertising more could make much of a difference for DT.

Or, I could  be wrong, and RR are complete hacks who don't know how to run their business. Given their level of success in an awful music economy, though, I'd imagine that RR are pretty good at what they do.

[Skeever]

As far as why BTFW didn't get the big push that Luna Park did, I'd imagine there's a few reasons for that. THE FOLLOWING IS COMPLETE CONJECTURE:

I wonder if maybe DT weren't a little burnt by Luna Park. They spent a lot of money filming the show professionally over two nights with all those HD cameras. They even went with a limited theatrical release. Over The Edge were supposed to be making the release really special, with tons of extra features. I have no idea what went wrong along the way, but the finished product was 1.) delayed way too long, not released until DT12 was already out 2.) flawed in terms of the audio and video syncing and 3.) pretty much vapid of extra content. Plus, 4.) I suspect the theatrical release didn't do too well.

At the end of the day, it seems like DT put a lot of time and work into making Luna Park special, and I do wonder if all of it paid off. At the end of the day, how many people bought Luna Park that hadn't bought Score, Live at Budokan, and all their other DVDs? Why put so much more effort into something, when that work is not really going to affect sales figures? I would like to see a comparison of the sales figures for Luna Park and Breaking the Fourth Wall. I would be willing to bet that Breaking the Fourth Wall sold about the same as Luna Park, even without all that pomp and circumstance. Plus, fan reaction to BTFW has been just as good, if not better, than it was for Luna Park.

[TheGreatPretender]

Or, I could  be wrong, and RR are complete hacks who don't know how to run their business. Given their level of success in an awful music economy, though, I'd imagine that RR are pretty good at what they do.

Obviously not, but I know a few bands who were kind of left with a bitter taste in their mouth after being signed to RR. I mean, the question is, hypothetically, let's say DT asked, "Hey, we think this record is going to be really special, and we want to go a little further advertising it with hopes of pulling in some new audiences." Would RR give them anything extra? Or would they just say, "No, this is what you get. Deal with it"?

I suspect the theatrical release didn't do too well.

Well, I don't know about everywhere else, but by the time I found out about the theatrical release in my area, it was already sold out.

Plus, fan reaction to BTFW has been just as good, if not better, than it was for Luna Park.

Reaction, yes, but what about exposure? It's a little cynical to believe that DT makes no new fans at all these days. For every sorry skeptic who stops listening to them, there's someone out there discovering them for the first time, and loving it.
And with Luna Park, for the longest time, I've seen it at the forefront of music DVD section at my local HMV, so at the very least, the store was inclined to upsell it, which may have been an influence of Eagle's marketing campaign for it. With BTFW, I'm not so sure.

[Skeever]

To be clear, I don't think that they don't make new fans. Certainly people are discovering them as time goes by, and there are people that lose interest over time too. I'm just going by album sales, which have stayed pretty much the same as far back as I know. DT albums sell pretty predictably, and no advertising campaign is going to turn them into a multiplatinum act 

[TheGreatPretender]

To be clear, I don't think that they don't make new fans. Certainly people are discovering them as time goes by, and there are people that lose interest over time too. I'm just going by album sales, which have stayed pretty much the same as far back as I know. DT albums sell pretty predictably, and no advertising campaign is going to turn them into a multiplatinum act 

Maybe not multiplatinum, but I'm sure a little bit extra could go a long way. Advertising is a powerful mistress.
Dream Theater may not be an obscure band, but a lot of people who have heard of them haven't actually listened to any songs. What better way to pique their interest than with some extra advertising on Youtube and the like.

[Skeever]

What do you think DT could do to expose themselves to a new audience? I'm pretty sure everyone in the metal world knows who they are. But I guess they could get a little more up to date with some things. For example, I never hear Spotify ads for DT, but I hear them for a ton of other bands. Not sure whether it'd make a huge difference though.

Not trying to derail the point with this thread. My main thing was just commenting on the idea that Breaking the Fourth Wall needed more pomp around it. I think they tried that last time, and it wasn't necessarily making a big difference for them.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, like I said, a lot of people are aware of them, but there are quite a few that just never really heard the music, and advertising could pique their interests.

But yeah, what about LALP and BTFW? Do we have any kind of sales statistics for them? How are they doing?

[BlobVanDam]

I don't know about advertising, but in terms of distribution, it was much easier for me to find BTFW than LALP here (I had to order LALP online instead). So being released by RR has an impact there.
Unless they go gold/platinum, I doubt we'll get any sales figures for either of them.

[The Cat Of Tuscany]

Awww YEAH! It has Finally Free and Space-Dye Vest on it! 

[fischermasamune]

I don't know if it has been already discussed, but in Illumination Theory, in the first guitar solo of IV. The Pursuit Of Truth (before the keytar solo) we almost exclusively see the right side of the stage (from the point of view of the band). Was there any edition/overdub on JP's solo?

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I don't know if it has been already discussed, but in Illumination Theory, in the first guitar solo of IV. The Pursuit Of Truth (before the keytar solo) we almost exclusively see the right side of the stage (from the point of view of the band). Was there any edition/overdub on JP's solo?

It can be verified with a comparison with the bootleg, I guess, but it's no news that there were a lot of parts reworked in post-production.

[me7]

This is an odd section. They don't show Petrucci as if to hide an overdub, but his playing is so sloppy that it wouldn't make sense for this to be an overdub.
He races through the solo without any feeling, but still can't keep up with the beat. He even has to ignore the little break near the end of the solo (which I consider essential) and keeps racing to fit all the notes in the allotted time.

This solo is the reason I prefer the studio version of the song.

[JiM-Xtreme]

I already asked this question in another thread, but everyone ignored me. 

I'll try again here.

Does anyone know what those weird creepy monster things in the Illumination Theory animation are supposed to be?

Where do they come from? What are their desires, thoughts and beliefs? What sort of culture do they come from?

I want to make a book about them.