Minneapolis 1994 - Best JLB performance ever?

[KevShmev]

During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.

Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.

Smoking looks cool?  Er, okay.

[rumborak]

@mikeyd23: I think that heavily depends on the person. I mean, I agree, those mid-90s hairdos were maybe a bit silly in hindsight, but those were the days where DT was experimenting, both music and style-wise.
I for one don't connect with the current "greasy biker shop" image. I find it less convincing (as in, does it reflect an aspect of their personality?) than the FII image. DT has been riding the "rororo, I'm a tough metal guy!!" image for such a long time, it would be nice for some fresh wind.

[TheGreatPretender]

He and his voice as since fully recovered, but some wonder what he might sound like now if he had never gotten sick.

"Fully Recovered". I dunno about that, he's definitely doing better than he has in a long time though.

You have to keep in mind that it's been 20 years. Realistically, even if he never did get the poisoning, I'd still be impressed if he sounded as good as he does now.

During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.

Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.

Smoking looks cool?  Er, okay.

Yeah, man, don't be such a square! 

[rumborak]

You know, there's of course a good chance the food poisoning story happened as told. But somewhere in the back of my mind there's an alarm bell that says "cover story for something else". Maybe it's because when I listen to videos of the general era (before and after), I just don't hear this before-after cliff you would expect to hear when somebody majorly screwed up his voice.
I mean, are there videos that re shortly before and shortly after, and you can say "video 1: Hit all notes with ease, video 2: struggling"?

[TheGreatPretender]

You know, there's of course a good chance the food poisoning story happened as told. But somewhere in the back of my mind there's an alarm bell that says "cover story for something else". Maybe it's because when I listen to video of the general era (before and after), I just don't hear this before-after cliff you would expect to hear when somebody majorly screwed up his voice.

James actually died and they got a body double to replace him? You can hear clues about it if you play Space-Dye Vest backwards. 

[rumborak]

Ok, never mind my previous post. I'm just listening to Awake in Japan '95, and man, poor guy. Hearing how he just screams the stuff out... I'm actually wondering whether his decision to do the tour did more harm to his voice than the actual food poisoning incident. It's one thing to sprain your ankle, it's another to keep playing on the injured ankle.

[ReaPsTA]

I'm actually wondering whether his decision to do the tour did more harm to his voice than the actual food poisoning incident.

I've had the same thought.  His voice during that period still sounds okay, not nearly as shredded as it did during the FII tour.  He should have done therapy on his throat or something.

[rumborak]

The matter definitely wasn't made any easier by the fact that DT kept writing their music to be sung by a super-high pitched singer. They had kinda manoeuvered themselves into a corner by hiring a singer who was already anachronistic (in terms of style) the moment he started in the band, but then he screws up his voice and can't sing high, but really has no low register either.
I think that's where that much-criticized comment by MP about JLB comes from ("If I had to choose these days, I would go for a different singer")

I think had DT written their vocal lines to be less operatic/hair metal from the get go, any singer (JLB or whatever) would have had an easier time maintaining it over the course of his career.

[ReaPsTA]

I think that's where that much-criticized comment by MP about JLB comes from ("If I had to choose these days, I would go for a different singer")

I think that comment had less to do with the specifics of DT and JLB's career and more to do with him wanting a singer for DT that was super badass and hardcore.

[rumborak]

Sorry, ninja edit.

Yes, MP wanted a different style, but I think partially because they hired a perfect singer for a hair metal band at a time where that genre was already falling apart, and because that kind of singing is very hard to maintain over the years. Take more mid-range singers like Akerfeldt and Wilson. They will have little problem singing their songs 20 years from now. Hell, if anything their voices will get more character in that range. I always thought DT did themselves a disservice to write these super-high vocal lines. They just as well could have written more midrange ones.

[BlobVanDam]

@mikeyd23: I think that heavily depends on the person. I mean, I agree, those mid-90s hairdos were maybe a bit silly in hindsight, but those were the days where DT was experimenting, both music and style-wise.
I for one don't connect with the current "greasy biker shop" image. I find it less convincing (as in, does it reflect an aspect of their personality?) than the FII image. DT has been riding the "rororo, I'm a tough metal guy!!" image for such a long time, it would be nice for some fresh wind.

Uh they're a plain looking prog band that wears black. That's about as neutral as it gets image wise! Without MP, I don't know where you can get the "tough guy" idea from.
Why would a bunch of guys in their 40s and 50s be experimenting with their image? At this stage, that implies they don't know who they are, or are trying to be something they're not. They're being themselves, not trying to latch on to some ill fitting style as they were doing during the FII era.

[rumborak]

Come on blob, you will have to agree that especially the DT 12 promo shots were on a new level of "tough guy" image. MM's fake hair dying, JLB's facial hair, the leather jackets...
Just check out this image:

https://assets-s3.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/dream-theater-channel-prog-metal-in-dream-theater-premiere-20130916/1000x600/091213-dream-theater-600-1379014000.jpg

Or the The Looking Glass video for crying out loud.

[ReaPsTA]

Sorry, ninja edit.

Yes, MP wanted a different style, but I think partially because they hired a perfect singer for a hair metal band at a time where that genre was already falling apart, and because that kind of singing is very hard to maintain over the years. Take more mid-range singers like Akerfeldt and Wilson. They will have little problem singing their songs 20 years from now. Hell, if anything their voices will get more character in that range. I always thought DT did themselves a disservice to write these super-high vocal lines. They just as well could have written more midrange ones.

I don't exactly disagree with what you're saying.  Vocally speaking, DT made a lot of bad long-term bets.

But I'd argue you have to do the right thing artistically.  JLB's To Live Forever demo is really magical.  Even though all the I&W material was written without him, he fits into it perfectly.  The Awake album is a vocal clinic.  In a band that's supposed to feature highly technical music, shouldn't the vocal lines also be highly technical?

Lower range singers tend to age better, but you never know where JLB's voice would have ended up without the food poisoning.

On the last two albums, where JLB got more control over his melodies and performances, he's mostly handled his business very well.  Singing higher up in his range, but not going above where he can reliably perform.

People say now that JLB's voice is about where it would be without the food poisoning, but I find that hard to believe.  He sounds nothing live like he does on bootlegs, because they cut all the mids out of his voice.  His midrange is actually very strong and full.  It's the high ends and grittiness that are completely shredded.  The stuff that really stretches his vocal chords.  Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if his voice had aged naturally it would all get worse together.  The fact that his mid/mid-high range are totally fine and his higher range is destroyed makes it feel like his voice evolved very unnaturally.  Like an athlete coming back from a major injury.  They don't lose all their skills together like a naturally aging athlete.  At a certain level, they're totally fine, but once they reach a threshold it all falls apart.

Come on blob, you will have to agree that especially the DT 12 promo shots were on a new level of "tough guy" image. MM's fake hair dying, JLB's facial hair, the leather jackets...
Just check out this image:

https://assets-s3.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/dream-theater-channel-prog-metal-in-dream-theater-premiere-20130916/1000x600/091213-dream-theater-600-1379014000.jpg

Or the The Looking Glass video for crying out loud.

I never got the tough guy vibe.

[BlobVanDam]

Come on blob, you will have to agree that especially the DT 12 promo shots were on a new level of "tough guy" image. MM's fake hair dying, JLB's facial hair, the leather jackets...
Just check out this image:

https://assets-s3.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/dream-theater-channel-prog-metal-in-dream-theater-premiere-20130916/1000x600/091213-dream-theater-600-1379014000.jpg

Or the The Looking Glass video for crying out loud.

Maybe back in 1980 that would have said tough guy, but that's all very standard stuff these days, and they've always looked super serious in their promo shots, since it's prog, and they're awkward.
And I don't remember anything remotely tough guy about The Looking Glass video. Maybe you shouldn't walk the streets alone at night if that seems tough to you.

[?]

I don't think the DT12 promo shots are any more "tough" or metal than those from the SC/BC&SL era. ADTOE was actually a step away from that image, although that may have had something to do with James' shorter hair.

[ErHaO]

Sorry, ninja edit.

Yes, MP wanted a different style, but I think partially because they hired a perfect singer for a hair metal band at a time where that genre was already falling apart, and because that kind of singing is very hard to maintain over the years. Take more mid-range singers like Akerfeldt and Wilson. They will have little problem singing their songs 20 years from now. Hell, if anything their voices will get more character in that range. I always thought DT did themselves a disservice to write these super-high vocal lines. They just as well could have written more midrange ones.

I don't exactly disagree with what you're saying.  Vocally speaking, DT made a lot of bad long-term bets.

But I'd argue you have to do the right thing artistically.  JLB's To Live Forever demo is really magical.  Even though all the I&W material was written without him, he fits into it perfectly.  The Awake album is a vocal clinic.  In a band that's supposed to feature highly technical music, shouldn't the vocal lines also be highly technical?

Lower range singers tend to age better, but you never know where JLB's voice would have ended up without the food poisoning.

On the last two albums, where JLB got more control over his melodies and performances, he's mostly handled his business very well.  Singing higher up in his range, but not going above where he can reliably perform.

People say now that JLB's voice is about where it would be without the food poisoning, but I find that hard to believe.  He sounds nothing live like he does on bootlegs, because they cut all the mids out of his voice.  His midrange is actually very strong and full.  It's the high ends and grittiness that are completely shredded.  The stuff that really stretches his vocal chords.  Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if his voice had aged naturally it would all get worse together.  The fact that his mid/mid-high range are totally fine and his higher range is destroyed makes it feel like his voice evolved very unnaturally.  Like an athlete coming back from a major injury.  They don't lose all their skills together like a naturally aging athlete.  At a certain level, they're totally fine, but once they reach a threshold it all falls apart.

Come on blob, you will have to agree that especially the DT 12 promo shots were on a new level of "tough guy" image. MM's fake hair dying, JLB's facial hair, the leather jackets...
Just check out this image:

https://assets-s3.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/dream-theater-channel-prog-metal-in-dream-theater-premiere-20130916/1000x600/091213-dream-theater-600-1379014000.jpg

Or the The Looking Glass video for crying out loud.

I never got the tough guy vibe.

I do not think that is true. The majority of vocalists tend to lose their high range to a certain degree due to ageing. If they lose almost all vocal capabilaties, that is usually due to destroying their voice over the years. The latter is something that happens to quite some rock/metal vocalists as they really strain their vocal chords and/or use bad singing techniques.

I agree with the notion that Labrie probably would have sounded similar by now without the accident. You can also argue the other way around; maybe he would have sounded worse as the accident might have teached him how to preserve his voice better in some ways (in the mid range, at least). I'm no expert on food poisoning, but rupturing your vocal chords due to vomiting sounds like there was some damage already to me. Well never really know, but I think the chances are really, really slim for any vocalist to maintain the young Labrie style on the long term.

I agree with you, however, that the early years were definately the right thing to do artistically. Art would be pretty limited (regardless of talking about dancing, singing, drums, sports etc.) if every artist would aim to be able to do the same stuff until they are 70.

All that said, I was pleasantly surprised how Labrie sounds this tour and how he handles the Awake songs.

[mikeyd23]

@mikeyd23: I think that heavily depends on the person. I mean, I agree, those mid-90s hairdos were maybe a bit silly in hindsight, but those were the days where DT was experimenting, both music and style-wise.
I for one don't connect with the current "greasy biker shop" image. I find it less convincing (as in, does it reflect an aspect of their personality?) than the FII image. DT has been riding the "rororo, I'm a tough metal guy!!" image for such a long time, it would be nice for some fresh wind.

Uh they're a plain looking prog band that wears black. That's about as neutral as it gets image wise! Without MP, I don't know where you can get the "tough guy" idea from.
Why would a bunch of guys in their 40s and 50s be experimenting with their image? At this stage, that implies they don't know who they are, or are trying to be something they're not. They're being themselves, not trying to latch on to some ill fitting style as they were doing during the FII era.

Yeah, Blob nailed it here... I get that image comes down to personal preference, heck its style, anything related to style is going to be based on preference and will vary person to person.  But my point was that DT now has a stable, consistent look. Whether you like the look or not is of no consequence. They pretty much wear black pants and shirts, with occasional color popping up here and there, thats pretty standard and plain in the world of bands nowadays.

I was in a band that almost signed a record deal with a label and the thing we kept hearing over and over again from them regarding our image, was that whatever our image was it needed to be consistent among all members so it looked like a group style that was shared.  DT did not have that in the FII era...

[MoraWintersoul]

re new image: Yeah I don't really get the "tough guy" vibe the DT12 promo pictures, I think they're really in good taste, especially the one rumbo linked. At least the majority of them have to wear long sleeves so that they don't look like teenagers, and if more than one of them wears the same black button-up shirt (the most "mature" solution) it would look silly, so why not opt for lightweight leather jackets? MM's zipper longsleeve isn't too distracting either.

And I don't get how MM is "fake dyeing" his hair, he's pretty much for realsies dyeing it? JLB's been doing that for twenty years anyway, and MM dyes it to his natural shade so it's not exactly noticeable. You'd think that after JP's super saiyan hair/Hot Topic phase and MP's blue beard we'd grow a thicker skin black shirts with subtle designs (they've ditched most of the Ed Hardy stuff) and dark jeans are basically a step away from streetwear, and they look like dudes who've been doing metal for more than 25 years, which they are. Just because they're more known for their musicianship than for anything else doesn't mean that they should cut the hair and ditch the black.

re the Octavariumly recurring JLB discussion: whenever I felt sorry for the fact that the food poisoning had happened, I was almost always sorry not for what "he could have sounded like now" (it's not like he can sound better for his age than he does already, and his voice sounds like it naturally changed over time now, anyway), but for the "lost" years in between. Think of Awake being performed in full potential of his young voice on tour (we only have a couple of recordings showcasing this), OIALT being a solid gold performance, Live Scenes too (he was VERY solid in there, but we coulda had a DVD quality performance of the elusive F#), full stability on tours up to Octavarium etc. Realistically he would have hit his prime somewhere between FII and SDOIT, learning how to control his voice wonderfully while regaining its full range and power.

[Madman Shepherd]

OMGZZZZZZ the guys dye their hair?!?!??!   

POSERS!!!

They might as well mime their respective instruments.


GREEN FONT!!!

[rumborak]

Eh. I don't know, I loved their "geeky metal" image back in the day. The current image, while I understand that it appeals to the metalheads, doesn't do anything for me.

[TAC]

At what point did James have a face transplant?

[MoraWintersoul]

Eh. I don't know, I loved their "geeky metal" image back in the day. The current image, while I understand that it appeals to the metalheads, doesn't do anything for me.

I personally really liked the ridiculous fluffy era, but past a certain age and in a more minimalist era, whatcha gonna wear and still be comfy on stage?

And I get your point but they kinda sorta are a metal band, for metalheads. That's their bread and butter.

[JayOctavarium]

Eh. I don't know, I loved their "geeky metal" image back in the day. The current image, while I understand that it appeals to the metalheads, doesn't do anything for me.

I personally really liked the ridiculous fluffy era, but past a certain age and in a more minimalist era, whatcha gonna wear and still be comfy on stage?

And I get your point but they kinda sorta are a metal band, for metalheads. That's their bread and butter. SALMON AND SMALL MAMMALS

Fix'd

[Shine]

ITT: Discussion about James' vocal performance devolves into bickering about modern image of the band.

[Shine]

Here's the full show from the Rudess Experiment in '94: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpEx7pDIq8A

Man, what I would give for a few more years of that voice.

Yeah, maybe his voice wouldn't be any different today if he didn't get sick, but I think we can agree that at least the second half of the 90s was a lost era for DT live shows in regards to James' voice, at least compared to what could have been.

[mikeyd23]

Here's the full show from the Rudess Experiment in '94: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpEx7pDIq8A

Thanks for the link, that was fun to watch!

[TheAtliator]

Yeah, maybe his voice wouldn't be any different today if he didn't get sick, but I think we can agree that at least the second half of the 90s was a lost era for DT live shows in regards to James' voice, at least compared to what could have been.

Yes exactly what I'm saying. If anyone is unsure of the difference the accident made, watch anything from Minneapolis 1994 and then watch Surrounded and Voices here- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPs7-5-buh0&feature=youtu.be

[rumborak]

Seriously, that "Rudess Experiment" might have been one of the best DT shows I have ever seen. That was incredible. I also totally loved the ending of TTT, with JR and JP doing doubled runs. They should revive that.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm still amazed that JR was able to pretty much nail the entire show for his first (and at the time only) DT show, and still manage to add a lot of top of that, while by OIALT, DS was still fumbling through many of the songs, with a much more limited range of sounds. JR was the right man for the job all along.

Yeah, maybe his voice wouldn't be any different today if he didn't get sick, but I think we can agree that at least the second half of the 90s was a lost era for DT live shows in regards to James' voice, at least compared to what could have been.

Yes exactly what I'm saying. If anyone is unsure of the difference the accident made, watch anything from Minneapolis 1994 and then watch Surrounded and Voices here- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPs7-5-buh0&feature=youtu.be

He wasn't even able to attempt those higher parts, he had to just hover around the same few lower notes. It's impressive how he has recovered that range.

[mikeyd23]

Seriously, that "Rudess Experiment" might have been one of the best DT shows I have ever seen. That was incredible. I also totally loved the ending of TTT, with JR and JP doing doubled runs. They should revive that.

Yeah the unison lines at the end of the show were SWEEET!
 

[IdoSC]

Would it be so bad to say that I prefer current performances? I LOVE early 90's James, but now he has a very close presence with mcuh more subtlety, precision and softness when necessary. At least as far as I see it.

[?]

Would it be so bad to say that I prefer current performances? I LOVE early 90's James, but now he has a very close presence with mcuh more subtlety, precision and softness when necessary. At least as far as I see it.

No, that's a perfectly valid opinion and I agree. In the early days James had a lot of range but couldn't control his voice very well - I recently listened to the Milwaukee '93 bootleg and his voice was cracking at some points. Nowadays he can sing without screaming his way through all the songs yet he hits all (or at least most of) the high notes. I also think his low/mid register singing has more warmth to it nowadays.

[bosk1]

During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.

Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.

The Derek phase was performance-wise one of the most enjoyable. Lava lamps, TVs on stage, then the occasional antics (Nightmare Cinema), and even acoustic sets. And Derek himself is coolness in person anyway.
Not that the current stage show is bad, but they lately rely a lot on video screens for their visuals. In the Derek days the stage had a lot going on.

Speaking of which...I did NOT forget to ask about the lava lamps, by the way.  When I saw them in SF, EBMM was in the middle of their promo for the rollout of the new majesty guitar, and there was a huge contingent of EMBB folks there.  I spoke to JP a few times that day, but the conversations were always short and rushed because of all the stuff going on with the EBMM folks, and John also wanting to spend a bit of time with Frank Aresti, who was at the show with his wife.  So I didn't really get a chance to bring it up in a way that wouldn't have sounded forced and weird instead of being a fun, jokey moment.  But I am filing that question away and will try to bring it out at some point. 

[rumborak]

The question remains a mystery!!

[bosk1]

  Sorry.  I fully intended to bring it up, but it was just insane how busy and distracted he was.  I had a bunch of others I wanted to ask that I didn't get to as well.  I think I talked to Matt Guillory almost as long as I talked to JP that day.    But I did get to see MM's drum kit up close, which was amazing.