Minneapolis 1994 - Best JLB performance ever?

[BlobVanDam]

SFAM and SDOIT alone cancel out any possible theoretical scenarios to me. They booted DS out of the band not a moment too soon. While FII is my #4 DT album, what DS contributed to the band pales in comparison to what JR added.

[MoraWintersoul]

But then again, seeing how much of SFAM was written with Derek, SDOIT is probably the first proper sample of unique JR's sound and ideas transferred onto DT.

[BlobVanDam]

But then again, seeing how much of SFAM was written with Derek, SDOIT is probably the first proper sample of unique JR's sound and ideas transferred onto DT.

Despite his participation in the SFAM "demo", I don't believe DS contributed much to the final album at all. SFAM is in fact arguably the most undiluted "JR" that JR has ever been allowed to be in DT, aside from maybe SDOIT. JR's stamp is undeniably all over SFAM from start to finish, and that fresh sound is a lot of what makes that album so amazing imo, not the tiny dribs and drabs drafted while DS happened to be in the band.

The demo was mostly 20 minutes of rough noodling, and how much of that made it in? Some main keyboard parts of Overture 1928 are in there, the outro run from TDOE that is just doubling JP, which I would assume JP wrote anyway based on the pattern and performance, and sections of One Last Time that are based around a signature JP melody, where the keyboard is just playing the most rudimentary of accompaniment on a hammond, which got replaced with something better by JR. I was skimming, so maybe there's something else in there too, but no developed ideas or signature DS parts that I spotted.

So only a small portion of the final album was even written while DS was in the band, and I'd only credit him with himself writing an even smaller portion of that. I'd only give him credit for Overture 1928. Had he not been involved, it would hardly have changed a thing imo. The greatness of SFAM comes largely from the fresh writing dynamic of JP/JR.

[ReaPsTA]

Do you have any insider info on how Metropolis Part 2 was written?  To me, it seems like DS should have writing credits on Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu, maybe TDOE, and OLT.  Even the minor accompanying sections are still songwriting.

[BlobVanDam]

The Metropolis pt 2 demo gives a ton of info as to how it was written, if you're familiar with the style of each musician, and the writing process in general. Accompaniment only counts as songwriting if you wrote the progression. Accompanying an already written progression doesn't.

In the case of OLT, that certainly appears to be the case. In the case of TDOE, he's only doubling JP (not all that well either, and I don't for a second believe he wrote it). The only unique thing I near from DS in the Metropolis pt 2 demo is Overture 1928, which as I noted before, I'd credit him for. Everything else he played (of the parts that made it into the album) is basic level accompaniment and/or doubling to what JP is doing.

To think he contributed enough to the album to support MoraWintersoul's point is unfounded imo.

[rumborak]

Blob, I think you're heavily overplaying Jordan's influence in the songwriting. Check out this comment by Paul Northfield, talking about Jordan's role in the writing of Systematic Chaos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYgAPl4UDUo#t=8150

I see no reason why that would have been different for SFAM, where he had just joined the band.
I mean, maybe he has a bigger role in the writing these days now that MP is gone, but sound-wise it doesn't sound like it. And from Paul Northfield's comments about ADTOE, it's all JP these days.

[ReaPsTA]

I think ADTOE had a lot of Jordan.  Even the harder songs, like BMUBMD, have keyboard elements that go beyond "orchestration."

DT12 though feels like a far more JP influenced project.  Very few if any moments that make me think "oh yeah, total JR thing here."

[Rodni Demental]

While the above points are all correct, I can at the same time only dream what DS would have contributed music-wise to DT had he stayed, based on what he later did in Planet X.
Also, of the three keyboardists, he is my favorite in terms of solos. KM had good melodies for his solos but weak sounds, and JR's solos are, sorry, 90% total throwaway.

Well, in fairness, those other keyboardist have had a lot less time to disappoint you with the presentation of their solos. Derek gets 1 and a half albums and Kevin gets 3 where as Jordan has at least 8 albums worth of DT material, and many more related projects. Although I think you're onto something I agree with, in that Derek had a good ear for tone and sound which can make a simple melody or passage much more appealing, which is something KM never got right with me despite coming up with some amazing keyboard leads. Even in OSI these days he's more about the ambient noises and the rhythmic sound effects. But Jordan has some hits and misses, which I think is he same for the other keyboardists, it's just their 'misses' are relatively lower by default, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're more consistent, I believe they just didn't have enough time to disenchant you. JR is constantly trying out new sounds in the music he plays, and continues to play around with sounds outside of DT with his digital sound manipulation programmes. And if I'm honest, some of Jordans solos have completely blown my mind from lack of comprehension and sheer amazement at some of the scale patterns and arpeggios that he plays at astonishing speeds. I know playing is not all about speed but when he hammers on the right heartstrings and plays very high energy solos sometimes while his left hand is taking care of the ambient stuff. It really proves to me that he's on a whole 'nother level. 

[BlobVanDam]

Blob, I think you're heavily overplaying Jordan's influence in the songwriting. Check out this comment by Paul Northfield, talking about Jordan's role in the writing of Systematic Chaos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYgAPl4UDUo#t=8150

I see no reason why that would have been different for SFAM, where he had just joined the band.
I mean, maybe he has a bigger role in the writing these days now that MP is gone, but sound-wise it doesn't sound like it. And from Paul Northfield's comments about ADTOE, it's all JP these days.

The difference in JR's influence between SFAM and SC (and later albums) is obvious though if you listen to the albums. On SC/BCASL, JR was more restricted in what he could contribute with the heavier riffs and heavier style, and everyone suspects the dynamic was different in the later MP days too. Even the most recent albums, it sounds like the JP show, and JR kind of has to work around that.
SFAM and SDOIT are the two albums where you can easily hear JR's songwriting influence. After that was a completely different beast. What Paul Northfield says about SC has zero relevance to SFAM.

[ytserush]

During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.

Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.

The Derek phase was performance-wise one of the most enjoyable. Lava lamps, TVs on stage, then the occasional antics (Nightmare Cinema), and even acoustic sets. And Derek himself is coolness in person anyway.
Not that the current stage show is bad, but they lately rely a lot on video screens for their visuals. In the Derek days the stage had a lot going on.

Huge difference of opinion here. I almost threw in the towel on them in early '98. From the outside looking in, it just seemed like it was a matter of time (oops!) before the outside pressures did the band in.  I didn't like what they were becoming at all.
Always easier to say in hindsight, but Derek became the poster boy to all that went wrong then. At least he did to me. I think the performance standards took a hit in those years too.

Derek was/is completely cool in person though. No doubt about that. Met him several times during those years.

Of course it all comes down to opinion in the end. I know a lot of people here see the switch to JR as an unequivocal trade up, but I think they chipped away at a thing they would never regain from there on: character. Derek infused the band with a lot of unique character (sound and personality I wise), and so did MP. There's no question that JR and MM are exceptionally skilled musicians, but I gotta be honest with you, those changes made DT more and more reliant on JP as the creative input. Like, MP obviously left his indelible mark on the DT sound, and Derek even supplied a full song on FII, one which I think is brilliant. And look at what he wrote later for Planet X.
These days there's maybe a drum full or a small piano break from JR and MM, but that's the extent of it really.

I don't share  your fondness for most Derek contributions (performances, fashion sense, humor, contributions) while he was in the band, but I will COMPLETELY agree with your assessment of his work after he left (at least as far as his solo stuff and Planet X is concerned)  I LOVE that stuff and it's obvious that he learned quite a bit from being in Dream Theater. My contention has always been that he was not the right fit for Dream Theater. I'll admit that in retrospect things aren't quite as bad as it was when I was living through that period and there is quite a lot to like there (except Anna Lee. Never changing my mind on that one.)



As far as Jordan goes, I'm firmly in the camp that they should just turn the guy loose and let him be creative and impose fewer boundaries.

[TAC]

I don't share  your fondness for most Derek contributions (performances, fashion sense, humor, contributions) while he was in the band, but I will COMPLETELY agree with your assessment of his work after he left (at least as far as his solo stuff and Planet X is concerned)  I LOVE that stuff and it's obvious that he learned quite a bit from being in Dream Theater. My contention has always been that he was not the right fit for Dream Theater. I'll admit that in retrospect things aren't quite as bad as it was when I was living through that period and there is quite a lot to like there (except Anna Lee. Never changing my mind on that one.)



As far as Jordan goes, I'm firmly in the camp that they should just turn the guy loose and let him be creative and impose fewer boundaries.

Yup.

[Shine]

So are there any bootlegs of Learning to Live from 93/94?

[GentlemanofDread]

So are there any bootlegs of Learning to Live from 93/94?

Yes, actually! There's one from a very good bootleg I have called Lost In The Sky from Milan, 93. Closes the show.

[wasteland]

Funny you mentioned it.

[GentlemanofDread]

Haha! It's the first example I could think of, so now that means I've got it playing naturally now.

[Öxölklöfför]

There you go people! https://1drv.ms/S6Ptn4

Thanks a lot! But, I'm having trouble downloading it, it'll only download 257k. Probably because I'm on a Mac. Does anyone have an alernate download link that isn't hosted on Skydrive?

[Grizz]

I've had this problem before. It stopped randomly
 Try a different browser?

[KevShmev]

Do you have any insider info on how Metropolis Part 2 was written?  To me, it seems like DS should have writing credits on Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu, maybe TDOE, and OLT.  Even the minor accompanying sections are still songwriting.

My guess would be that when Derek was fired, any severance pay or whatever he received was given under the condition that he forfeit songwriting credit and/or (any more) monetary compensation on anything used on later albums that might have come about in jams/demos/etc. when was still in the band.  That could apply to the parts that ended up in Scenes... or Raise the Knife ending up on Score.

[Sycsa]

Derek even supplied a full song on FII

Which song is that?

[GentlemanofDread]

Derek even supplied a full song on FII

Which song is that?

Anna Lee, of course

[rumborak]

Why is that in sarcasm green? It is the song he contributed. He even reused the tune on his solo album.

[GentlemanofDread]

Because of Five Years in a LIVEtime commentary, Petrucci says the music wasn't all Derek's.

[Madman Shepherd]

Because of Five Years in a LIVEtime commentary, Petrucci says the music wasn't all Derek's.

Petrucci actually got a little defensive when Mike mentioned it was pretty much just Derek with James adding lyrics

[Grizz]

I'd let him have the credit for the most boring song in DT's catalog.
I'd rather listen to Forsaken.

[rumborak]

Enigma Machine is three times as boring as Anna Lee, IMHO.

[King Postwhore]

Enigma Machine is three times as boring as Anna Lee, IMHO.

Agreed.

[BlobVanDam]

Enigma Machine is three times as boring as Anna Lee, IMHO.

My independent testing actually puts it at more like 7.2x more boring. Anna Lee is a beautiful song.

[Grizz]

Both are boring, the difference being Enigma Machine has energy.

[BlobVanDam]

The difference being Anne Lee is a song, and not just a few riffs thrown together.

[hefdaddy42]

Look, I like Enigma Machine, but Anna Lee is a much better song, and I hope that DT brings it back to live performances, now that MP is no longer making the setlists.

[Enalya]

There you go people! https://1drv.ms/S6Ptn4

Thanks a lot! But, I'm having trouble downloading it, it'll only download 257k. Probably because I'm on a Mac. Does anyone have an alernate download link that isn't hosted on Skydrive?

Doesn't work for me either.. So eager to have it xD

[wasteland]

Alright, I 'll look into it when I get back from the concert!

[Grizz]

It's SkyDrive. They handle downloads strangely and stop randomly with no hope of resume. In fact, I was shocked that our last exchange worked. Perhaps you could try DropBox or Google Drive? (I'd mirror it but I don't have a fully functional computer until Friday.)

BTW, Did my emails scare you off? 

[?]

Am I the only one who always reads the thread title as "Metropolis 1994"?

[Grizz]

...
It doesn't say metropolis?
Fuck.