JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary

[TheGreatPretender]

Fuck, yeah. It's a ton more interesting than those dime-a-dozen threads lately. OK, maybe the vegetable thread was still better.

I feel like that was copying my, "If DT songs were food" thread. Which kinda died. 

[Grizz]

I trust the numbering scheme of the man who was integral in founding and running the band for 25 years, whose influence is still heavily discussed and debated despite having left the band three and a half years ago, more than the man who sang from five years into the band's life and wrote lyrics on twelve songs.

[BlobVanDam]

Given that JLB wasn't around for those years, I don't count his opinion for as much as the founding members. They already celebrated the 20th anniversary in 2005 and released a DVD, so it's already strongly established that it's how they classify it. There's no doubt JLB would feel as MP/JP/JM do if he was around in those formative years.

[TheGreatPretender]

Given that JLB wasn't around for those years, I don't count his opinion for as much as the founding members. They already celebrated the 20th anniversary in 2005 and released a DVD, so it's already strongly established that it's how they classify it. There's no doubt JLB would feel as MP/JP/JM do if he was around in those formative years.

He should've just said, "DT was established in 1992 when their first album with ME came out, bitches!" 

[BlobVanDam]

Given that JLB wasn't around for those years, I don't count his opinion for as much as the founding members. They already celebrated the 20th anniversary in 2005 and released a DVD, so it's already strongly established that it's how they classify it. There's no doubt JLB would feel as MP/JP/JM do if he was around in those formative years.

He should've just said, "DT was established in 1992 when their first album with ME came out, bitches!" 

If he'd worded it like that, I would have been much more receptive.

[Invisible]

For the record, I'm not disputing the history. The band, whether all agreed or not, decided their 20th was on 2005, so that's it, they are committed to it. I'm just saying James has a point and I agree with him.

It has nothing to do with being there or not for me, I mean he's been the freakin singer for more than twenty years, and since the real launch of DT career. By now he is as big as a founding member, and Jordan too. Though I agree that on this particular discussion his opinion bears less weight, the whole founding member thing is blown way out of proportion most times.

I always understood he, like me, is not disputing when the band started, he's disputing when it's more appropiate to celebrate the years of the band. I disagree with James that it can be changed now, releasing Score automatically settled the story that way, there's no going back now.

Still, it's not a big deal anyway... just fun to discuss

If he'd worded it like that, I would have been much more receptive.

Maybe you would, but this place would be on fire, so I'm glad he didn't

[KevShmev]

Regarding the ""How long has DT been around?" question, I was actually asked that recently by a co-worker who just started listening to the band and my reply was, "Basically, the early 90s, although their first album actually came out in '89." I never even thought to say 1985 or 1986.

[BlobVanDam]

Regarding the ""How long has DT been around?" question, I was actually asked that recently by a co-worker who just started listening to the band and my reply was, "Basically, the early 90s, although their first album actually came out in '89." I never even thought to say 1985 or 1986.

In that context, 1985 wouldn't have had any relevance, as your co-worker isn't going to find any DT album from 1985. The only answer that matters in that context is how long they've been releasing albums, not how long the band has actually been together, which is since 1985.

[bl5150]

I've always struggled to decide when Van Halen's foundation date was - their first album (1978) or when Eddie first met Alex and they started singing together (1955) 

I've always considered any anniversary a function of the debut album as it's something set in stone rather than when band members met/played together for the first time/recorded first demo/got first deal/played first gig/played together first with the lineup on the debut etc........ , but as some have said once you start doing "band anniversaries" based upon a certain date it would be a bit silly to start changing it now.

[BlobVanDam]

but as some have said once you start doing "band anniversaries" based upon a certain date it would be a bit silly to start changing it now.

That's my main issue. When you've already released a DVD that says "Score / XX / 20th anniversary world tour" right on the front, then that's what you're going with.
To go back on that would only confuse and divide people. Had they chosen from the start to celebrate it based on their first album, then that would be their decision to make. And they can (and have) still celebrate the anniversary of their first album, and it doesn't make it any less important a milestone in their career.

[TheGreatPretender]

That's my main issue. When you've already released a DVD that says "Score / XX / 20th anniversary world tour" right on the front, then that's what you're going with.
To go back on that would only confuse and divide people. Had they chosen from the start to celebrate it based on their first album, then that would be their decision to make. And they can (and have) still celebrate the anniversary of their first album, and it doesn't make it any less important a milestone in their career.

You know what though? Re-reading JLB's quote, it's interesting just how confidently he says it. Not just, "In my opinion, a band's anniversary is their first album," but he's talking about celebrating their 30th in 2019, as if it's something the band had already talked about. I wonder...


Also, I think it's pretty clear that it has already confused and divided people. 

[Madman Shepherd]

This is the most technical binding discussion I have ever read.  It makes me think of two kids discussing who is cooler, Sonic the Hedgehog or Mario?

"Ya see, Sonic is inherently more capable of escaping danger because as a hedgehog he not only has a thicker layer of natural armor, but he can roll through enemies.  For Mario to do anything other than punch bricks and hope there is a pipe he can go down, he needs to finds a feather which will turn him into a part-raccoon thus making him able to jump to great heights and flick his tail back and forth so he can ease himself gently back to the ground...or a levitating pipe."

While we are getting so technical about what constitutes what...is James the second or third singer of Dream Theater?  Or how bout this....is he actually, what, the sixth?!?!?!

Technically they did announce Steve Stone as the official new singer (even though his tenure lasted for one week).  After him Chris Cintron was essentially an officially member, they were just gunshy of going public with it.  Then there was John Henricks who was almost an official member...or maybe he was.  Didn't they basically say he was in the band, he flew back home, and they changed their minds?  Their manager was even looking into hair extensions for him. 

SO WHAT IS IT?!?!

[TheGreatPretender]

James is actually the first singer of DT. He hit that F# and retroactively erased everyone else from history.

[Setlist Scotty]

I don't know Apple's origins so this is entirely hypothetical, but a guy sitting at home with a personal computer, making software in his spare time, is not a company, until he gets a business license and registers his business.

I'm not gonna claim to know every detail about Apple's business history, but I beg to differ. I think the point that the two Steves said "let's make a company" is the starting point - perhaps with a handwritten agreement between them, or maybe a handshake. And I'd say the same is true for DT. It doesn't have to be until they got a record deal or copyrighted their name.
 
 

First of all, I'm not disputing where the band that was going to be Dream Theater started. It's pretty clear that the very moment that MP said "we should start a band" and the other guys said "cool!", that's where it started. What I'm discussing here it's what should've been Dream Theater official anniversary.

And therein lies the problem - it's not a matter of when everybody thinks it should count as the beginning - it's a matter of "when did this band actually start?" In the case of DT, it was the fall of 1985 (or spring of 1986 if you feel that the lineup had to be complete).

You bring a good point, and it's how important the name change was. Well, for me, it's huge. For you, not so much. Most companies celebrate their anniversaries as to when they had their names, Apple was Apple, not Oranges or Steve Jobs and The Wackos. Majesty is Majesty, not Dream Theater even if the name change was as a result of an unforseen(and very lucky IMHO) incident.

So let's say that the band actually came up with the name "Dream Theater" instead of Majesty in 1985, and there wasn't anyone else who trademarked the name, so that they were free and clear to use it when it came time for them to copyright it. That would negate this point of the argument, wouldn't it? So why even bring this point up? The band was the same band as it was with either name - that's a simple fact.
 
 

- No tours or significant live performances(MP himself says they were a "basement" band, not playing shows out there).

Hmmm...well I counted a total of 19 shows as Majesty (15 with Chris, 4 with Charlie) as opposed to the total of 8 shows they did with Charlie after the name change, which says something in terms of them doing live performances. And while it's true they weren't playing Radio City Music Hall, the last two shows that they did as Majesty were showcase shows, so I'd say they were significant enough.
 
 

But the most important factor for me is, in absence of the former:
- No releases.  Neither as Majesty or Dream Theater.

Again, I beg to differ. While they weren't signed to a label at the time, they did release 2 separate demo tapes that they had mass duplicated and sold at shows. To me, that's enough of a release to include that era of their history in figuring out the anniversary. If you're unwilling to count those, then by the same token, you'd have to ignore all the home studio recordings that have been released independently by people since then, since it's basically the same thing.
 
 

Hey, it gives us something else to talk about besides, "What was your favorite 12th track on every 11 track DT album?"

I prefer the thread "What is each vegetable's neighbor's step-son's uncle's twice-removed grandfather's 3rd favorite DT song that has the word water included in the lyrics?"   
 
 

SO WHAT IS IT?!?!

Pac-Man. DUH!!!   

[BlobVanDam]

That's my main issue. When you've already released a DVD that says "Score / XX / 20th anniversary world tour" right on the front, then that's what you're going with.
To go back on that would only confuse and divide people. Had they chosen from the start to celebrate it based on their first album, then that would be their decision to make. And they can (and have) still celebrate the anniversary of their first album, and it doesn't make it any less important a milestone in their career.

You know what though? Re-reading JLB's quote, it's interesting just how confidently he says it. Not just, "In my opinion, a band's anniversary is their first album," but he's talking about celebrating their 30th in 2019, as if it's something the band had already talked about. I wonder...

He confidently states that the band will still be going then (glad to hear!), and says it would be cool to celebrate it then. I don't get the impression the rest of the band is on it.
He sounds confident in his opinion despite knowing his opinion differs to how the rest of the band feel about it. Obviously 1985 doesn't have any meaning for him personally, because he wasn't there! So I understand that it has no personal resonance for him, unlike the members of the band who met at Berklee and formed a band.

James is actually the first singer of DT. He hit that F# and retroactively erased everyone else from history.

But it's hard to argue with such great thoughts as this.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't know Apple's origins so this is entirely hypothetical, but a guy sitting at home with a personal computer, making software in his spare time, is not a company, until he gets a business license and registers his business.

I'm not gonna claim to know every detail about Apple's business history, but I beg to differ. I think the point that the two Steves said "let's make a company" is the starting point - perhaps with a handwritten agreement between them, or maybe a handshake. And I'd say the same is true for DT. It doesn't have to be until they got a record deal or copyrighted their name.

Well, see, there you go. It's as simple as people disagreeing on how something is defined. In which case, it's still all a matter of opinion. And like I said, just because a band says, "This band has existed for this long" doesn't mean that everyone has to agree with it, if it goes against that person's definition. I'm willing to entertain the idea of their 25th anniversary in 2010 because the T-Shirt was awesome. But if you ask me, at no point in 1985, did Dream Theater exist.

He confidently states that the band will still be going then (glad to hear!), and says it would be cool to celebrate it then. I don't get the impression the rest of the band is on it.
He sounds confident in his opinion despite knowing his opinion differs to how the rest of the band feel about it. Obviously 1985 doesn't have any meaning for him personally, because he wasn't there! So I understand that it has no personal resonance for him, unlike the members of the band who met at Berklee and formed a band.

Yeah, but it sounds like he's almost sure that it will happen. Like he's sure that if he proposed to celebrate their 30th anniversary in 2019, JP or JM aren't going to say, "But we've been around since 1985. Our 30th anniversary was 4 years ago, so no."

[Madman Shepherd]

James is actually the first singer of DT. He hit that F# and retroactively erased everyone else from history.

Steve Stone could hit a mean B♭ but that put his destiny in an eternal state of purgatory.

[TheGreatPretender]

James is actually the first singer of DT. He hit that F# and retroactively erased everyone else from history.

Steve Stone could hit a mean B♭ but that put his destiny in an eternal state of purgatory.

Is that where he spends eternity telling DT fans to scream for him?

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, but it sounds like he's almost sure that it will happen. Like he's sure that if he proposed to celebrate their 30th anniversary in 2019, JP or JM aren't going to say, "But we've been around since 1985. Our 30th anniversary was 4 years ago, so no."

I didn't get that out of it at all. Keep in mind it was in response to a specific question about their 30th anniversary (in Russian, but I assume it was along the lines of what the band's plans were for celebrating the 30th anniversary next year).
To me he sounded alone with his thoughts on when the anniversary is. If he feels that strongly about it now, I get the feeling the band simply won't do anything at all either now or 2019, rather than go with his opinion on the matter, when it goes against what is already established.

But forget that, how about the fact it's almost a decade since the 20th anniversary tour. WTF? When did that happen? It can't be that long ago! The trauma of the Octavarium subforum will be with me forever.

[TheGreatPretender]

I didn't get that out of it at all. Keep in mind it was in response to a specific question about their 30th anniversary (in Russian, but I assume it was along the lines of what the band's plans were for celebrating the 30th anniversary next year).
To me he sounded alone with his thoughts on when the anniversary is. If he feels that strongly about it now, I get the feeling the band simply won't do anything at all either now or 2019, rather than go with his opinion on the matter, when it goes against what is already established.

But forget that, how about the fact it's almost a decade since the 20th anniversary tour. WTF? When did that happen? It can't be that long ago! The trauma of the Octavarium subforum will be with me forever.

See? If you consider JLB's date, then their 20th anniversary was only 5 years ago... Which makes us all younger!

[BlobVanDam]

You are raising some very compelling arguments here. I approve.

[TheGreatPretender]

[?]

My $0.02: most bands I listen to (Opeth, Katatonia, Paradise Lost, etc.) have celebrated their anniversaries based on the year they got together, but I think the line-up and name changes make DT's case more complex. That said, Score was supposed to mark their 20th anniversary and they even played a Majesty song, which makes me think 1985 should be considered the year they started.

[Mladen]

This is the most technical binding discussion I have ever read.  It makes me think of two kids discussing who is cooler, Sonic the Hedgehog or Mario?

Sonic, obviously.

I think both perspectives on this thing are kinda flawed. You can count starting the year the band came together, but people rarely knew what year it is. On the other side, you can count starting the year the debut album came out, but that's like saying the band didn't exist prior to it.

[hefdaddy42]

Given that JLB wasn't around for those years, I don't count his opinion for as much as the founding members. They already celebrated the 20th anniversary in 2005 and released a DVD, so it's already strongly established that it's how they classify it.

This, and I'm not sure why it took 3 pages to get there.  JLB can think or say whatever he wants, but it doesn't really hold any more weight than the opinion of my mother on this subject, and she doesn't know anything about DT.

[robwebster]

I do think Mike Portnoy kind of loved anniversaries, and special shows, and the science of celebration, so I think it is, in retrospect, entirely consistent with his personality that he chose the earliest possible date to count from. I would not at all be surprised if he had the 20th Anniversary setlist planned in his head for months. That said, Score at 20 does just feel right. Something about it, it did feel like the cumulative total of two decades' work, and Score feels more like the end of an era than Black Clouds did, for whatever reason. The discography felt complete, a coherent tome. "End of book one."

With it already written into the band's lore - and how! - that 2005/06 was the 20th anniversary, anything else would feel a bit funky. We've been told so publically and with such panache that 1985 is the point to start from that the shift would look weird. But when I think of Dream Theater, I do think of 1989 as the point where the band starts. It all starts with A Fortune in Lies. Everything before is history, it's gestation, the band was incubating, and gaining form. WDADU is still sort of a prototype, but it's the moment Dream Theater stopped being an idea and started being a tangible "thing," it's minute zero, so I totally get where JLB's coming from, cos I think instinctively I tend to count from 1989, too.

As I've said, though, I don't especially give a fuck where they count from! This tour, in particular, has highlighted that I really couldn't care less how old any particular album is and whether it produces an integer if you divide it by five. Band anniversaries are a bit different, because that's an achievement, that's "Holy crap, we're still doing this" - but while 2015 is thirty years since JP, JM and MP jammed at Berklee, it's equally fair to say 2019 is thirty years of Dream Theater music, and I don't really care whether they celebrate both or neither.

[rumborak]

Given that JLB wasn't around for those years, I don't count his opinion for as much as the founding members. They already celebrated the 20th anniversary in 2005 and released a DVD, so it's already strongly established that it's how they classify it.

This, and I'm not sure why it took 3 pages to get there.  JLB can think or say whatever he wants, but it doesn't really hold any more weight than the opinion of my mother on this subject, and she doesn't know anything about DT.

Nah, it's been said several times already in this thread by me and others. I totally agree, how James feels  has little bearing on the question. The only guys who can answer when DT officially started are the ones who've been around since the beginning. It's also worth noting that James has a somewhat vested interest in moving that goal. With his definition he's been the singer for as long as DT "matters". Under the current definition however he joined DT 5 years later.

[KevShmev]

  It's also worth noting that James has a somewhat vested interest in moving that goal. With his definition he's been the singer for as long as DT "matters". Under the current definition however he joined DT 5 years later.

JLB was not in the band in 1989.

[rumborak]

By 1990 though, right?  So yes, Charlie "existed", but only for a tiny amount of time if you take the WDADU release as the time marker.

[TheGreatPretender]

This, and I'm not sure why it took 3 pages to get there.  JLB can think or say whatever he wants, but it doesn't really hold any more weight than the opinion of my mother on this subject, and she doesn't know anything about DT.

Well, that's going a little far. JLB has still been the defnitive vocalist for DT, one who's been around for over 20 years. Just because he wasn't there for the first couple of years when the band was still being developed and trying to gain attention, doesn't mean that his opinion of DT's history prior to him being around is completely insignificant. I think he deserves a little more respect than that. Scratch that, a LOT more respect.

[rumborak]

It's no disrespect to James. It's just that he makes judgments on events he wasn't part of.

[RodrigoAltaf]

 I think the definition of anniversary depends on which band we´re talking about, as many have pointed out here already. But hey, if they celebrated 20 years with Score, changing the criteria now would be a crazy move, almost Spinal Tap-ish...a 20th anniversary in 2006 and a 30th in 2019!!! 

 All that said, the whole celebration with special setlists seems to be more a Portnoy thing than anyone else´s, so I would prefer to wait until he´s back in the band to find out how they´ll deal with the issue.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's no disrespect to James. It's just that he makes judgments on events he wasn't part of.

So? It's not like he's unaware of DT's history. Heck, he's probably still more intimately familiar with their history than even Rich Wilson.
I mean, I was never a part of the Glam Metal movement in the 80s, heck, I wasn't even born back then, but from watching documentaries and reading books about it, why can't I make judgments on those events? James might not have been THERE during their early years, but it's not like he's completely oblivious about what it was like for them.

Besides, he's not even making a judgment. He didn't say, "Anything they did before 1989 doesn't matter", he just says that his personal criteria for celebrating a band's anniversary is from the release of their first album.

[theseoafs]

It's no disrespect to James. It's just that he makes judgments on events he wasn't part of.

WTF?  In what way is James "making judgments on events he wasn't part of"?  The man didn't denounce all of Dream Theater history or kick Chris Collins in the balls or anything, he just said that he, personally, tended to count from the release date of the first album when looking at the timelines of bands.  That's a perfectly natural and common way to look at things.  He may disagree with the rest of the band on this.  He may not.  We probably won't know what every band member's opinion on this matter is because it doesn't really matter.

[425]

I typically would not be inclined to repost something I had already said earlier, but in this case I feel that this is something relevant to this conversation and particularly to theseoafs' post that got lost in a bigger post of mine a few days ago. For your consideration:

They sell, even now, a t-shirt that says on it "New York 1985." ...  And if the case is that the entire band does approve all official merchandise, then James was willing to approve the shirt that says they founded in 1985.