Author Topic: So I realized why DT's last 3 big epics have suffered in a way ACOS/8VM don't.  (Read 10270 times)

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Offline James Sucellus

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The Count of Tuscany is damn near perfect in my eyes. Every time I finish it, I feel happy about myself, and life. The ambient middle is full of melancholic dread, and then from the moment the acoustic kicks in, the whole thing is just classic DT.

Starts off as creepy and angry, then becomes so unabashed in its optimism that I can't help but love it. Surprised to see such criticism, honestly. It is unimaginable to me that anybody could finish that song and not love it. It's gorgeous, and the simplistic, child-like lyrics only add to its romantic quality.

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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The Count of Tuscany is damn near perfect in my eyes. Every time I finish it, I feel happy about myself, and life. The ambient middle is full of melancholic dread, and then from the moment the acoustic kicks in, the whole thing is just classic DT.

Starts off as creepy and angry, then becomes so unabashed in its optimism that I can't help but love it. Surprised to see such criticism, honestly. It is unimaginable to me that anybody could finish that song and not love it. It's gorgeous, and the simplistic, child-like lyrics only add to its romantic quality.

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You're new but I like you already. :biggrin:

Offline BlobVanDam

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I think you guys missed the point.  I wouldn't say it's necessarily about genre change persay.  It's more about the transition as it relates to the content of the song.  The classical type stuff is fine and worked great in SDOIT Overture because it set the template for what the entire song was doing.  At the same time, using guitars, bass and drums.  IT just slaps ambient keys into the middle of the song out of nowhere and it doesn't sound anything like the rest of the song.  I also think TCOT suffers from this as well but not as much.  In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety.  Each section of the song reminds me of something I've already heard before.  It sounds like a 22 min collection of cut & paste.  Reminds me more of a Schmedley Wilcox than an epic album closer.

So you have read through this whole thread and despite all the explanations, you still think there is no coherence in IT? Still no purpose for the ambient and classical section?

Just because someone wrote up an essay on it, doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with the interpretation, or suddenly decide the song works. Just saying.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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I think you guys missed the point.  I wouldn't say it's necessarily about genre change persay.  It's more about the transition as it relates to the content of the song.  The classical type stuff is fine and worked great in SDOIT Overture because it set the template for what the entire song was doing.  At the same time, using guitars, bass and drums.  IT just slaps ambient keys into the middle of the song out of nowhere and it doesn't sound anything like the rest of the song.  I also think TCOT suffers from this as well but not as much.  In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety.  Each section of the song reminds me of something I've already heard before.  It sounds like a 22 min collection of cut & paste.  Reminds me more of a Schmedley Wilcox than an epic album closer.

So you have read through this whole thread and despite all the explanations, you still think there is no coherence in IT? Still no purpose for the ambient and classical section?

Just because someone wrote up an essay on it, doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with the interpretation, or suddenly decide the song works. Just saying.

I can see this very quickly devolving into a "that's just, like, your opinion man" discussion. :lol

Offline erwinrafael

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I think you guys missed the point.  I wouldn't say it's necessarily about genre change persay.  It's more about the transition as it relates to the content of the song.  The classical type stuff is fine and worked great in SDOIT Overture because it set the template for what the entire song was doing.  At the same time, using guitars, bass and drums.  IT just slaps ambient keys into the middle of the song out of nowhere and it doesn't sound anything like the rest of the song.  I also think TCOT suffers from this as well but not as much.  In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety.  Each section of the song reminds me of something I've already heard before.  It sounds like a 22 min collection of cut & paste.  Reminds me more of a Schmedley Wilcox than an epic album closer.

So you have read through this whole thread and despite all the explanations, you still think there is no coherence in IT? Still no purpose for the ambient and classical section?

Just because someone wrote up an essay on it, doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with the interpretation, or suddenly decide the song works. Just saying.

Sure, disagreement with interpretations, or on whether DT executed well its what it was trying to do in IT, is fine. But "In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety." after everything that's been discusssed here is quite a stretch if one is actually listening to what the others are saying.

Offline BlobVanDam

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I think you guys missed the point.  I wouldn't say it's necessarily about genre change persay.  It's more about the transition as it relates to the content of the song.  The classical type stuff is fine and worked great in SDOIT Overture because it set the template for what the entire song was doing.  At the same time, using guitars, bass and drums.  IT just slaps ambient keys into the middle of the song out of nowhere and it doesn't sound anything like the rest of the song.  I also think TCOT suffers from this as well but not as much.  In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety.  Each section of the song reminds me of something I've already heard before.  It sounds like a 22 min collection of cut & paste.  Reminds me more of a Schmedley Wilcox than an epic album closer.

So you have read through this whole thread and despite all the explanations, you still think there is no coherence in IT? Still no purpose for the ambient and classical section?

Just because someone wrote up an essay on it, doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with the interpretation, or suddenly decide the song works. Just saying.

Sure, disagreement with interpretations, or on whether DT executed well its what it was trying to do in IT, is fine. But "In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety." after everything that's been discusssed here is quite a stretch if one is actually listening to what the others are saying.

An interpretation is just an opinion though. If one disagrees with that particular opinion, then the point fully remains.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline erwinrafael

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I think you guys missed the point.  I wouldn't say it's necessarily about genre change persay.  It's more about the transition as it relates to the content of the song.  The classical type stuff is fine and worked great in SDOIT Overture because it set the template for what the entire song was doing.  At the same time, using guitars, bass and drums.  IT just slaps ambient keys into the middle of the song out of nowhere and it doesn't sound anything like the rest of the song.  I also think TCOT suffers from this as well but not as much.  In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety.  Each section of the song reminds me of something I've already heard before.  It sounds like a 22 min collection of cut & paste.  Reminds me more of a Schmedley Wilcox than an epic album closer.

So you have read through this whole thread and despite all the explanations, you still think there is no coherence in IT? Still no purpose for the ambient and classical section?

Just because someone wrote up an essay on it, doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with the interpretation, or suddenly decide the song works. Just saying.

Sure, disagreement with interpretations, or on whether DT executed well its what it was trying to do in IT, is fine. But "In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety." after everything that's been discusssed here is quite a stretch if one is actually listening to what the others are saying.

An interpretation is just an opinion though. If one disagrees with that particular opinion, then the point fully remains.

So even the point that the lyrics in The Pursuit of Truth gives the answers to the questions in Live, Die, Kill is STILL subject to disagreement? that we can still say that we have no idea what Illumination Theory is trying to do IN ITS ENTIRETY?

Offline TheGreatPretender

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An interpretation is just an opinion though. If one disagrees with that particular opinion, then the point fully remains.

I don't see the point of disagreeing with someone's interpretation, unless the person disagreeing had a different interpretation of their own. And if that's the case, then they should be able to put their own context on why the musical piece is structured the way it is.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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So even the point that the lyrics in The Pursuit of Truth gives the answers to the questions in Live, Die, Kill is STILL subject to disagreement? that we can still say that we have no idea what Illumination Theory is trying to do IN ITS ENTIRETY?

We get it, you wrote up an interpretation. It doesn't magically make IT work as a song to those who feel it doesn't flow or work successfully as a song.

An interpretation is just an opinion though. If one disagrees with that particular opinion, then the point fully remains.

I don't see the point of disagreeing with someone's interpretation, unless the person disagreeing had a different interpretation of their own. And if that's the case, then they should be able to put their own context on why the musical piece is structured the way it is.

One can disagree with an interpretation without needing a counter-interpretation.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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One can disagree with an interpretation without needing a counter-interpretation.

That just sounds like stubbornness. Sort of a, "Until I hear the band tell us exactly what it's about, I won't accept any theories." Therefore until the band breaks it down, you just keep assuming it's all random stuff pieced together for the hell of it... Except, any real Dream Theater fan should know that's not how they do things, especially when they go so far out of their way to talk about how proud they are of this song. Clearly there's a method to the madness, and if people can't see it, or if they think that the band would actually just throw some ideas together without a thought, then I feel like that person doesn't know the band very well at all.

Personally, I could care less if a song sounds 'disjointed.' Having so many different musical ideas in one song is a major part of what makes DT awesome. I don't even need to understand the context of it.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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One can disagree with an interpretation without needing a counter-interpretation.

That just sounds like stubbornness. Sort of a, "Until I hear the band tell us exactly what it's about, I won't accept any theories." Therefore until the band breaks it down, you just keep assuming it's all random stuff pieced together for the hell of it... Except, any real Dream Theater fan should know that's not how they do things, especially when they go so far out of their way to talk about how proud they are of this song. Clearly there's a method to the madness, and if people can't see it, or if they think that the band would actually just throw some ideas together without a thought, then I feel like that person doesn't know the band very well at all.


That is completely off base to what I was saying. It's not a case of "this interpretation is correct until someone comes up with a better one". This is music, not science. An interpretation is completely self contained. I can read it, look at it in context, and decide whether I think it fits, and if I don't, then I can disagree with it. I don't need to have my own interpretation to believe that another one is wrong. And even agreeing with the lyrical interpretation, it doesn't change how effective the song works.

I think it's stubbornness that people can't accept that regardless of one theory/opinion that has been put forward, that people are allowed to have an equally valid opinion that the song is disjointed and not cohesive.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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I think it's stubbornness that people can't accept that regardless of one theory/opinion that has been put forward, that people are allowed to have an equally valid opinion that the song is disjointed and not cohesive.

Sure. But personally, when its disjointedness had been brought up, or when people said, "the ambient section kills momentum" or whatever, and I said something like, "The exact same thing occurs in SDOIT," there's always some excuse as to why SDOIT is better. Whether it's the context, or whatever. I just don't see why SDOIT gets a free pass, just because we know what it's about? The simple fact is, it's another piece of music that has all the same "flaws" that IT has. I'm not saying these people need to feel the exact same way about SDOIT, but I'm saying that if I think that SDOIT suffers from these flaws just as much, then suddenly they try to change my opinion about that. And then they complain when we do the same about IT.
Here's a fact: SDOIT is just as disjointed as IT. If you like SDOIT in spite of that, that's fine, you're well within your rights to do so. But don't talk about IT as if it's more flawed, just because it doesn't suit your personal tastes.
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Offline James Sucellus

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I don't really mind the supposed structural weaknesses of TCOT as prog epics are supposed to screw around with traditional ideas of structure anyway. I like the fairytale storyline, the emotions it evokes within my consciousness, and it makes the time fly by, whereas with some shorter songs, I'm counting the minutes.

Offline Ambassador GKar

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I think it's stubbornness that people can't accept that regardless of one theory/opinion that has been put forward, that people are allowed to have an equally valid opinion that the song is disjointed and not cohesive.

Sure. But personally, when its disjointedness had been brought up, or when people said, "the ambient section kills momentum" or whatever, and I said something like, "The exact same thing occurs in SDOIT," there's always some excuse as to why SDOIT is better. Whether it's the context, or whatever. I just don't see why SDOIT gets a free pass, just because we know what it's about? The simple fact is, it's another piece of music that has all the same "flaws" that IT has. I'm not saying these people need to feel the exact same way about SDOIT, but I'm saying that if I think that SDOIT suffers from these flaws just as much, then suddenly they try to change my opinion about that. And then they complain when we do the same about IT.
Here's a fact: SDOIT is just as disjointed as IT. If you like SDOIT in spite of that, that's fine, you're well within your rights to do so. But don't talk about IT as if it's more flawed, just because it doesn't suit your personal tastes.

Execution is a big part of anything working. There's honestly not THAT much difference between the demo and studio version of Take Away My Pain, but they're crucial enough differences that the demo version is one of my favorite Dream Theater ballads ever and the studio is one of my least favorite tracks on FII. I love both 6DoIT and IT (Myung's bass coming in after the orchestra might be the best part of DT12) but it's perfectly human to have one work for you and the other not based on nothing scientific or specific, but gut instinct. That's the same reason, and again I love Illumination Theory and think erwinraefael's analysis is interesting, I don't think an analysis of the lyrics' themes is honestly going to convince anyone that the pacing of an instrumental transition suddenly works for them. It's an instinctive thing.

Offline BlobVanDam

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I think it's stubbornness that people can't accept that regardless of one theory/opinion that has been put forward, that people are allowed to have an equally valid opinion that the song is disjointed and not cohesive.

Sure. But personally, when its disjointedness had been brought up, or when people said, "the ambient section kills momentum" or whatever, and I said something like, "The exact same thing occurs in SDOIT," there's always some excuse as to why SDOIT is better. Whether it's the context, or whatever. I just don't see why SDOIT gets a free pass, just because we know what it's about? The simple fact is, it's another piece of music that has all the same "flaws" that IT has. I'm not saying these people need to feel the exact same way about SDOIT, but I'm saying that if I think that SDOIT suffers from these flaws just as much, then suddenly they try to change my opinion about that. And then they complain when we do the same about IT.
Here's a fact: SDOIT is just as disjointed as IT. If you like SDOIT in spite of that, that's fine, you're well within your rights to do so. But don't talk about IT as if it's more flawed, just because it doesn't suit your personal tastes.

It has nothing to do with "knowing what it's about". The music remains the same, and the lyrical context doesn't necessarily change that, even though it can.

It's funny how SDOIT being disjointed is a "fact", and to think otherwise is an "excuse", yet if someone has the same opinion of IT, they're being a hypocrite ignoring interpretations and being stubborn, and must write a counter-essay to back up their opinion.
I have never seen SDOIT get a free pass on anything, so I don't see any basis here for claiming a bias in the general fanbase.

Nothing here is fact, it's all opinion. They're all executed in very different ways, some more successfully than others. If one works better than another, then there's no contradiction, or excuse, it's plain and simple opinion, because this is music! What works in one song does not automatically work in another. As our new friend Ambassador GKar points out, even a minor change can make all the difference to the listener.

SDOIT has a sustained chord at the end of a song, then as the chord fades out, the next section starts over the top of that several seconds later, utilizing that sustained chord as chordal/textural backing as the clean guitar comes in. It's a short break in the sense that there isn't continuity of tempo/meter, but there is a continuity in that the band is still playing throughout the transition without break, and the sense of music/key/note is maintained, working on both ends (all imo of course, as is the following opinion of IT).

IT fades out a chord, but then plays wind chime samples for one and a half minutes, then eventually an orchestral section comes in. For me that is one and a half minutes of dead space, no music, no band. I get the feeling they were browsing a sample collection in the studio and thought it sounded neat, so they stuck it in there. How that might fit into a "concept" doesn't change that for me at all. I love what comes before and after the break, but I don't like the break.

If you can't see how people *might* just differentiate those two sections as listeners, you're not listening to music very hard. You're entitled to whatever opinion you want on both songs, that's not the issue, but the two opinions do not have to be related for anyone.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline erwinrafael

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So even the point that the lyrics in The Pursuit of Truth gives the answers to the questions in Live, Die, Kill is STILL subject to disagreement? that we can still say that we have no idea what Illumination Theory is trying to do IN ITS ENTIRETY?

We get it, you wrote up an interpretation. It doesn't magically make IT work as a song to those who feel it doesn't flow or work successfully as a song.

WHERE THE HELL IN MY POSTS IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE DID I PUSH MY INTERPRETATION? Please, Blob, show me. What is the context of my latest posts? That somebody claimed that "In fact, I have no idea what IT is trying to do in it's entirety." EMPHASIS: IN ITS ENTIRETY. Somebody can not make a sense of Illumination Theory IN ITS ENTIRETY. As if saying that nothing makes logical sense in the whole song, IN ITS ENTIRETY. Did I direct him to my interpretation? NO.

Am I the one who made a hyperbolic claim? NO. But somehow I am the one who is being stubborn here.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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It has nothing to do with "knowing what it's about". The music remains the same, and the lyrical context doesn't necessarily change that, even though it can.
Well, in that case, SDOIT has no excuses. If people think that IT is more cohesive, then they have every right to think that.

It's funny how SDOIT being disjointed is a "fact", and to think otherwise is an "excuse", yet if someone has the same opinion of IT, they're being a hypocrite ignoring interpretations and being stubborn, and must write a counter-essay to back up their opinion.
Hey, IT is disjointed too. Except it's a stupid term with a negative connotation that doesn't apply to either. There's nothing wrong with having some disjointedness in a song. It works in both cases, IMO.
Although when I'm talking about SDOIT's disjointedness, I'm talking about some of the more abrupt transitions it has, rather than how it chooses to go into the slow section. Either way, I'm not gonna argue if it's good or bad, I'm just saying, it's there. Everything negative that's being said about IT, could easily be said about SDOIT.

I have never seen SDOIT get a free pass on anything, so I don't see any basis here for claiming a bias in the general fanbase.
What about the OP? Basically saying, "there's a slow break in the middle that kills the momentum, this is why the latest three epics suffer, and ACOS, 8VM and SDOIT don't."
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Offline Grizz

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Offline BlobVanDam

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I have never seen SDOIT get a free pass on anything, so I don't see any basis here for claiming a bias in the general fanbase.
What about the OP? Basically saying, "there's a slow break in the middle that kills the momentum, this is why the latest three epics suffer, and ACOS, 8VM and SDOIT don't."

Because a "break" is being used here as a fairly general term to cover many concepts. I don't think ACOS and Octavarium have a break in the same sense as IT does (TCOT is arguable). They're different issues, both of which can work in some cases, and not work in others.

It comes down to what part of the flow is being "broken"? ACOS's transitions are instantaneous changes in tempo, but the music soldiers on, with no pauses. Those to me are jarring transitions, but not what I'd call a break. I'm not a fan of ACOS due to those transitions, so I'm not arguing that makes it better, or even worse. Just different.

TTTSTA > GK is a break in tempo with a continuity of music/key. GK > Solitary Shell is a break in music with a continuation of drums/tempo. I understand how people feel those break the flow too much. They work for me. Each to their own!

TCOT is more borderline, with a longer break in tempo, but I still feel a strong continuity of music through the pads continuing, and then soon after the guitar swell melody. It is the closest to IT out of the bunch, but it's a much more musical break, and that whole section itself is intentionally freeform/loose for timing in the guitar melodies, so they couldn't have continued the tempo into the section anyway. That's a big difference to why it works for me. It has to lose the tempo, because it's a musical section that has none. Usually that kind of style is reserved for the start of DT's songs, rather than smack bang in the middle.

Then we come to IT itself. To me that section is a break in every regard. It stops dead in its tracks for me. A break in tempo, a break in musicality, a break in tone, just samples. I'm not hearing any part of the band as I do in every other instance. That doesn't hold the song together well enough for me.

But there is an obvious comparison in structure between those latter two songs, and I get why you take issue with the OP saying IT suffers in clear ways that TCOT doesn't. I think there's a definable difference, but the comparison is wide open.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Because a "break" is being used here as a fairly general term to cover many concepts. I don't think ACOS and Octavarium have a break in the same sense as IT does (TCOT is arguable). They're different issues, both of which can work in some cases, and not work in others.

It comes down to what part of the flow is being "broken"? ACOS's transitions are instantaneous changes in tempo, but the music soldiers on, with no pauses. Those to me are jarring transitions, but not what I'd call a break. I'm not a fan of ACOS due to those transitions, so I'm not arguing that makes it better, or even worse. Just different.

TTTSTA > GK is a break in tempo with a continuity of music/key. GK > Solitary Shell is a break in music with a continuation of drums/tempo. I understand how people feel those break the flow too much. They work for me. Each to their own!

TCOT is more borderline, with a longer break in tempo, but I still feel a strong continuity of music through the pads continuing, and then soon after the guitar swell melody. It is the closest to IT out of the bunch, but it's a much more musical break, and that whole section itself is intentionally freeform/loose for timing in the guitar melodies, so they couldn't have continued the tempo into the section anyway. That's a big difference to why it works for me. It has to lose the tempo, because it's a musical section that has none. Usually that kind of style is reserved for the start of DT's songs, rather than smack bang in the middle.

Then we come to IT itself. To me that section is a break in every regard. It stops dead in its tracks for me. A break in tempo, a break in musicality, a break in tone, just samples. I'm not hearing any part of the band as I do in every other instance. That doesn't hold the song together well enough for me.

But there is an obvious comparison in structure between those latter two songs, and I get why you take issue with the OP saying IT suffers in clear ways that TCOT doesn't. I think there's a definable difference, but the comparison is wide open.

But wait... Did I read something wrong? Or didn't the OP say that TCOT suffers as well. Wasn't their whole argument that ITPOE, TCOT and IT suffer the way their previous mega-epics don't.
Frankly, I don't think any of them suffer. Yes, IT halts it completely and does something the previous epics don't, by breaking the flow of the music completely, but it's the direction the song took, and let's hypothetically say they separated it into two tracks, suddenly, there wouldn't be anymore "break in the flow" because it would be a start of a new song, for all intents and purposes, like ITPOE. Does that suddenly make it better? Does it change the composition in any way? No. It's still the same notes, played and mixed in exactly the same way. So ultimately, the question is, is the music itself good? And if people don't like it, that's all there is to it. But to say that there's something inherently wrong with the song because of the direction the band chose for it... Just rubs me the wrong way.

Also, when we're talking about the song being disjointed and stuff, as I recall, that break that goes into the orchestral section isn't the only thing people are talking about. They say things like "it feels like a bunch of ideas haphazardly thrown together".
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Offline BlobVanDam

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You're right, the OP does mention TCOT on the negative. Either way, I stand by my own opinion on the matter. I think it works there effectively.

As for the opinion of IT feeling like a lot of ideas thrown together, maybe it is a bit that way, but I think all of their epics have that element, and usually to great effect. Of course a 20+ minute song is going to have a lot of changes. I expect that, and I want that from those long songs.
The only one I feel suffers for that is ACOS, because I don't feel the connection between the pieces as I do for the rest, and it doesn't feel like it was written as one piece. There are enough musical themes to tie most of the rest together. Octavarium in particular has strong common threads running through every single section that makes it clear it's the same song.

Hypothetically splitting IT wouldn't change anything for me based on my issue with the song, so I'd still judge it the same way, much in the same way that splitting SDOIT as a song or a suite or whatever you want to call it doesn't change what that is to me. It's still the same chunk of music. Enjoy it with your ears, not with a checklist. :P
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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You're right, the OP does mention TCOT on the negative. Either way, I stand by my own opinion on the matter. I think it works there effectively.

As for the opinion of IT feeling like a lot of ideas thrown together, maybe it is a bit that way, but I think all of their epics have that element, and usually to great effect. Of course a 20+ minute song is going to have a lot of changes. I expect that, and I want that from those long songs.
Exactly! To say that IT is wrong for being like that is to deny DT their own DTness.

There are enough musical themes to tie most of the rest together. Octavarium in particular has strong common threads running through every single section that makes it clear it's the same song.

It may seem that way, but imagine playing a segment of Medicate for someone who never listened to DT, and then playing Full Circle, and try to see how many people would guess that it's actually one song.  :lol
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Offline BlobVanDam

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You're right, the OP does mention TCOT on the negative. Either way, I stand by my own opinion on the matter. I think it works there effectively.

As for the opinion of IT feeling like a lot of ideas thrown together, maybe it is a bit that way, but I think all of their epics have that element, and usually to great effect. Of course a 20+ minute song is going to have a lot of changes. I expect that, and I want that from those long songs.
Exactly! To say that IT is wrong for being like that is to deny DT their own DTness.

Yes, but again, it's all in the execution rather than the concept. Sticking lots of different sections together is not a problem, but then there's the fully subjective issue of whether or not is was effective. It's not always quantifiable beyond just feeling one works and one doesn't either. How does a blistering speed Sonic the Hedgehog solo work in the middle of Metropolis? Who cares? It just does! :lol

There are enough musical themes to tie most of the rest together. Octavarium in particular has strong common threads running through every single section that makes it clear it's the same song.

It may seem that way, but imagine playing a segment of Medicate for someone who never listened to DT, and then playing Full Circle, and try to see how many people would guess that it's actually one song.  :lol

It's clear if you listen to it as a whole and actually hear all of those themes! Full Circle may be the one part that is an exception to that though. I could probably find two parts of any DT song over 8 minutes and get the same response though. I could take any two parts of ACOS and a new listener wouldn't know they were the same song. I wouldn't want to deny DT their DTness!
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline KevShmev

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Wait, Blob, how exactly does the, what you call, the wind chimes section have no music?  Seriously?  By any definition of the word, that is music.  To say otherwise seems rather silly, if you ask me. 

Offline BlobVanDam

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Wait, Blob, how exactly does the, what you call, the wind chimes section have no music?  Seriously?  By any definition of the word, that is music.  To say otherwise seems rather silly, if you ask me. 

It's barely, at best. It's wind chimes and birds chirping. The band isn't playing anything, for a minute and a half. If I stepped outside (it could happen one day!) and heard the same noises, I wouldn't consider it music.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Yes, but again, it's all in the execution rather than the concept. Sticking lots of different sections together is not a problem, but then there's the fully subjective issue of whether or not is was effective. It's not always quantifiable beyond just feeling one works and one doesn't either. How does a blistering speed Sonic the Hedgehog solo work in the middle of Metropolis? Who cares? It just does! :lol
Again, I'm compelled to say, EXACTLY!
The point is, you can't say, "IT is bad because it sounds like a bunch of unconnected ideas thrown together" isn't really a valid statement if you like ACOS or SDOIT. But to say, "This time, I don't like how it came out" is a different story.

It's clear if you listen to it as a whole and actually hear all of those themes! Full Circle may be the one part that is an exception to that though. I could probably find two parts of any DT song over 8 minutes and get the same response though. I could take any two parts of ACOS and a new listener wouldn't know they were the same song. I wouldn't want to deny DT their DTness!

Of course, if we're only analyzing recurring themes, than one might confuse Through My Words with Through Her Eyes, since they both share the same underlying piano. Heck, people might assume that The Mirror and Space-Dye Vest are somehow connected.  :lol Or vice versa, if someone is familiar with those two instances, then who's to say whether the recurring themes in 8VM don't come from different songs?
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Yes, but again, it's all in the execution rather than the concept. Sticking lots of different sections together is not a problem, but then there's the fully subjective issue of whether or not is was effective. It's not always quantifiable beyond just feeling one works and one doesn't either. How does a blistering speed Sonic the Hedgehog solo work in the middle of Metropolis? Who cares? It just does! :lol
Again, I'm compelled to say, EXACTLY!
The point is, you can't say, "IT is bad because it sounds like a bunch of unconnected ideas thrown together" isn't really a valid statement if you like ACOS or SDOIT. But to say, "This time, I don't like how it came out" is a different story.

That's kind of implied by speaking about a song though. It doesn't have to imply anything negative about that particular trait. It's a perfectly fine way to present the opinion, and I don't think it needs to be worded differently to be acceptable. I can say "I dislike song A because of the samples" and then say "I love song B because of the samples" without needing to specify that liking or disliking a song isn't inherent to the use of samples at all. It's not objective enough to need such specificity.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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That's kind of implied by speaking about a song though. It doesn't have to imply anything negative about that particular trait. It's a perfectly fine way to present the opinion, and I don't think it needs to be worded differently to be acceptable. I can say "I dislike song A because of the samples" and then say "I love song B because of the samples" without needing to specify that liking or disliking a song isn't inherent to the use of samples at all. It's not objective enough to need such specificity.

Okay, but look at it this way, there's a difference between saying, "I dislike song A because of the samples" and "I dislike song A because it has samples". The first one implies that those particular samples don't appeal to this person, while the second one implies that this person doesn't approve of any samples, period, which is why the song isn't good.

But if someone said, "I like Space-Dye Vest," but then they said, "But I dislike Honor Thy Father because it has samples," then they're implying that samples are a bad thing, yet they like a song that's notorious for samples. The only way that would make sense to me is if they said, "I dislike samples, but I like Space-Dye Vest in spite of it having samples."
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Okay, but look at it this way, there's a difference between saying, "I dislike song A because of the samples" and "I dislike song A because it has samples". The first one implies that those particular samples don't appeal to this person, while the second one implies that this person doesn't approve of any samples, period, which is why the song isn't good.

But if someone said, "I like Space-Dye Vest," but then they said, "But I dislike Honor Thy Father because it has samples," then they're implying that samples are a bad thing, yet they like a song that's notorious for samples. The only way that would make sense to me is if they said, "I dislike samples, but I like Space-Dye Vest in spite of it having samples."

I get your point, but I think you're over-analyzing people's criticisms in this thread. :lol I think the intent of their comments are clear.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline hefdaddy42

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What a clusterfuck.  DTF never disappoints.  :lol

I would just like to say that I really get tired of seeing the word "disjointed" used as a criticism of DT's music.  Virtually every one of their songs that are at least, say, 6 minutes long has different sections that don't necessarily go together naturally.  "Disjointed" is a feature of their songs.  If you don't like "disjointed" then maybe this isn't the band for you.  Let it go.  Find other reasons for why you dislike song X.

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Offline robwebster

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What a clusterfuck.  DTF never disappoints.  :lol
Yeah! Maaaaaan!

I agree we should start moving away from "disjointed," but I don't know if DT's music is innately disjointed. Disjointed sort of has a negative connotation, a sense that they couldn't be bothered to include a flow, but I think DT generally tend to nail it. There's usually a drive and a forward momentum - and even when there isn't, nobody can really agree which songs they are!

I think that's probably why we have so many disagreements about what jointedness is. Scarred is pasted together in a way that sounds incoherent, to me - those ideas are sandwiched together in a way that, to my ears, doesn't belong. It's not the sudden changes that bother me, they've got some really bloody good sudden changes in other songs, so the suddenness can't possibly be the problem. It's just that those particular musical ideas sit awkwardly, like a crooked smile. I don't hear the development, it's not ploughing forward, it's going forward then backwards and sideways and despite some great riffs I just get lost. It's like it's making progress and then we're back to "Blood hear me" again. I thought we'd moved on. I'd moved on!

Which I think is the same thing The Great Pretender was getting at with this post -
"IT is bad because it sounds like a bunch of unconnected ideas thrown together" isn't really a valid statement if you like ACOS or SDOIT. But to say, "This time, I don't like how it came out" is a different story.
I don't agree with that, I don't think any of those songs sound like a bunch of disconnected ideas thrown together, I think all three are connected as fuck - but I get that people spend a lot of time criticising one song for doing a thing, then praising another song for doing the same thing. And that means the problem can't be the thing it's doing, just the music they're trying to do that thing with.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Momentum can mean a couple of different things.  In the course of an extended piece, it's natural to have quieter moments in between heavier/faster parts.  You have to have contrast; you can't just go full speed the whole way through.  I agree that that gets tedious.  But if the song is a journey, you want to feel like you're moving the whole time.  There's a way to have some contrast or take a breather without literally stopping everything.  With "Illumination Theory", everything literally just stops.  I guess I'm more a fan of movements "flowing" into each other, rather than the music completely stopping, then starting up again.
I think that's one of those things where trying to embrace the flow would be a little bit futile, though. If you want to write a song with a soft, soothing middle section, you're going to have to bring everything to a full stop - better to be brave, and bold, and daring, and have the band actually put their instruments down than to sort of keep it humming under. Illumination Theory is more of a statement, and I think that sumptuous, gorgeous moment is earned not just by the song, but by the entire album that precedes it.

I think it's the kind of thing that wouldn't be possible to do without alienating a few members of the fanbase, but I think the most powerful art is often about risk. For the people who like what they achieved, it's broken eggs in an omelette. In that sense I'm just lucky enough to be one of the people who thinks Illumination Theory is fucking gorgeous and wouldn't have it any other way. Yes, it stops! It crashes to a halt. That's the point, and it's bloody wonderful. The song stops, but the story pushes on, and it wrings every last emotion out of that orchestra, gloriously, and when the band comes back in it's like hearing them through new ears.


Bolded text above:  :tup   That's precisely how I feel. 


But with that said, I want to respond to the "alienated' comment above.  Now, I may not be the "average fan" since most of those don't pay for a Meet and Greet.  So, you know, I'm kinda, well a fanboy.  :lol I certainly don't begrudge them for what they did with Illumination Theory.   It definitely took balls to do it. And I respect them and I respect their artistic expression.  And I will say this:  the orchestral section -in and of itself- is quite the beautiful piece.  I love it for what it is, I'm just not too crazy about _where_ it is.   ;)


But yeah, they definitely get a big thumbs up from me for this album and the fact that it actually sounds different than the last couple of albums.  Dream Theater never disappoints in that.  Every one of their albums sound quite a bit different from each other.  This s/t album is no exception. 

Offline robwebster

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That's cool - I'm completely with you on the last paragraph, and I think I'm with you on the rest, too. There are songs I don't like, there are songs that alienate me, but that doesn't mean I wish they never wrote them, far from it, and it sounds like you're coming from a similar place with Illumination Theory. Alienation isn't constant, I don't mean, "you'll never like DT again" - it's just an inevitable side-effect when a band does something risky that someone is going to be alienated. Temporarily. For as long as that song's on.

A couple of grumpy fans is often a sign of a band in good health, because it means the band's changing, and challenging themselves. Just as some fans will love what a band's evolved into, it's only right that others will prefer their earlier stuff - but it's not even an early/late split, with Dream Theater. I mean, there are those who have A Change of Seasons as a cut-off, and those who have SfaM, and even those who cut off with Octavarium or Black Clouds, but I think the fact that there's no real overarching consensus proves that they're doing their job in an interesting way, and that the band still have something to say. With Illumination Theory, it's like they're talking directly to me - with Scarred, I'm not so fortunate! I love the vast majority of what they do, but sometimes it's just my turn.

Offline KevShmev

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Wait, Blob, how exactly does the, what you call, the wind chimes section have no music?  Seriously?  By any definition of the word, that is music.  To say otherwise seems rather silly, if you ask me. 

It's barely, at best. It's wind chimes and birds chirping. The band isn't playing anything, for a minute and a half. If I stepped outside (it could happen one day!) and heard the same noises, I wouldn't consider it music.

Let us know if that actually ever happens :P, but in the meantime, it's music.  Or are we ignoring the keyboard that is floating along during that entire section?  For someone who loves JR as much as you do, I am shocked that you would suggest that a piece of music he clearly plays pretty much all of is not music.

Offline energythief

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I disagree with OP. To me, IT is the best epic effort since Trial of Tears. I love all the music (and birds), but as a vocals/lyrics fan first and foremost, I find 8VM and TCOT silly and overdone.