So I realized why DT's last 3 big epics have suffered in a way ACOS/8VM don't.

[The Letter M]

I was listening to "The Count Of Tuscany" this morning as I was in the shower and I realized something about that song, as well as "In The Presence Of Enemies" and "Illumination Theory" - They all have breaks in the middle that slow-down or kill the momentum of the over-all epic.

For ITPOE, the song was broken up on the album, but even when put together, the second movement clearly ends and the wind sounds only offer a small segue between it and the third movement with the bass guitar beginning it. It feels a bit sudden and the build-up at the end of the second part loses momentum when it just...ends.

For TCOT, the ambient/guitar solo section, while beautiful, just kills the momentum a bit, but at least getting to it is a nice coast into that section, and getting out of it is a better build-up.

And for IT, the ambient/orchestra section is a bit of a buzz-kill, and the band comes back in a la "The Necromancer"-style, which is a bit jarring and sudden. But many fans find the orchestral section to be a bit out of place and killing the momentum built up by the first parts of the epic.

Now when I look back and think about "Octavarium", the song slowly builds up all the way from the beginning to the end, just up to the 4x screamed "TRAPPED INSIDE THIS OCTAVARIUM", then the climax coasts down in to the epic finish of "Razor's Edge". It's very uphill with a lot of momentum built-up to that climactic ending. "A Change Of Seasons" is a bit of a sine wave, so to speak, there nothing really slows the whole piece down or stop it dead in its tracks, but it does go up and down a bit. And "Six Degrees" is segmented in such a way that analyzing it compared to these others would be a bit unfair.

Has anyone else realized this? The thread about "where IT sits with the other epics" brought this to mind, and seeing how SDOIT, ACOS and 8VM still tend to top people's lists of DT epics, it's made me wonder why the other three would be so low, and so this all came to mind.

-Marc.

[emtee]

As a fan of Yes, and Pink Floyd before DT the epics mentioned appeal to me, as songs like Dogs and Awaken where there
is a long ambient moody section. So for me they don't suffer in any way, they just take me someplace else for a short
time while the song moves along it's path.

[KevShmev]

I totally disagree.  Those "slow down"s do not kill the momentum; they add texture and do a great job of making the epics breathe and flow well. 

I agree that Octavarium flows really well, what with the way it slowly builds and whatnot, but very little of that song is of the "holy shit, this is awesome" nature, while much of IT, TCOT and ACOS is.  Granted, Octavarium has that "the whole is greater than the sum" thing going on, which is why so many prefer it over the others, but I can sometimes get bored with the 2nd and 3rd parts of that song, waiting in agonizing fashion for the synth solo to kick in and kick start the song; I cannot say that for any parts in IT or ACOS.  Both of those songs encapsulate me from start to finish, as does The Count of Tuscany to a lesser extent (I like minutes 4-9, but still wish they were as awesome as the rest of the song; they do not bore me, though).  Plus, TCOT loses a few points for the lyrical content.  So does 8V for that matter.

[The Letter M]

I totally disagree.  Those "slow down"s do not kill the momentum; they add texture and do a great job of making the epics breathe and flow well. 

I mean, I don't really agree with the idea either, but it was something that I came up with as a possible reason why some fans would disregard these epics in comparison to ACOS and 8VM, which feel more solid in some aspects. Personally, ITPOE has the least in terms of a middle-slow-down, and when I first heard TCOT and IT, their middle sections brought tears to my eyes with how beautiful they were. TCOT's guitar solo reminded me heavily of LTE's "Rhapsody In Blue" (which was later stated as influence), so I was immediately drawing comparisons to it and I realized how beautiful it was. Sure, it does nearly stop the song dead in its tracks, but as you say, it's a new texture and a breather, and fans of Yes and Pink Floyd (as emtee mentioned) would likely be fans of these types of sections.

Then again, I wasn't the biggest fan of "Close To The Edge" (I was, and still am, a bigger fan of "The Gates Of Delirium") because of it's middle section, but for DT to throw these out in their songs was a  bit shocking and surprising, but in the end, *I* really do enjoy them. The OP was just a theory I had about why some would not enjoy it, and I'm sure fans who are more in to metal than prog would likely be the ones who feel that way.

-Marc.

[Orbert]

I'm much more into prog than metal, and I think you've hit upon one of the bigger problems I have with those later epics.  I think that they don't flow as well as "A Change of Seasons" or "Octavarium" in general, but I've never given much thought as to why.  But I think that that's it.  The mellow sections slow everything down.

Now, it's not just a simple matter of losing momentum.  To me, it's just that they make the song a lot longer for -- and it's hard to put this delicately, so I won't even try -- no real reason.  With both "The Count of Tuscany" and "Illumination Theory", those sections are great, and the songs wouldn't be the same without them, but they seem to come out of nowhere and in both cases, I find myself wondering when we're going to get back to the song.

[The Letter M]

I'm much more into prog than metal, and I think you've hit upon one of the bigger problems I have with those later epics.  I think that they don't flow as well as "A Change of Seasons" or "Octavarium" in general, but I've never given much thought as to why.  But I think that that's it.  The mellow sections slow everything down.

Now, it's not just a simple matter of losing momentum.  To me, it's just that they make the song a lot longer for -- and it's hard to put this delicately, so I won't even try -- no real reason.  With both "The Count of Tuscany" and "Illumination Theory", those sections are great, and the songs wouldn't be the same without them, but they seem to come out of nowhere and in both cases, I find myself wondering when we're going to get back to the song.

Understandable. I've actually been wondering when we'd get a JLB-solo mellow section, a la Queen's "The Prophet's Song" since we've already had JP-led solo section (in TCOT) and a JR-written orchestral section (in IT).

-Marc.

[mikemangioy]

I disagree. I think it adds depth to the song, and yes, whilist being kinda momentum-killing, it's prog. You can do whatever with music.

[lithium112]

I disagree that the atmospheric sections break the momentum of the song. Maybe on the first listen that thought could cross my mind if I have certain expectations. But once I'm familiar with the structure of the song nothing can break momentum for me because my mind follows the intentional progression of the piece and always just looks forward to the next section, whatever it may be.

I think the ambient sections in both IT and TCOT serve to enrich the song and make for a more interesting listen. Octavarium doesn't do that but that's just because it's a marvel of musical composition and stands in a field of its own.

[rumborak]

And for IT, the ambient/orchestra section is a bit of a buzz-kill, and the band comes back in a la "The Necromancer"-style, which is a bit jarring and sudden.

That last part I definitely agree with. JM's bass is fine, but MM's snare sounds really plastic in that section.

[TAC]

M, I posted this in the Illumination Theory thread the other day..

I think that's the thing that gets me about IT. If they had done that one first, , I might feel differently about it. But I had high hopes that this lineup put an epic on this album whereas ADTOE didn't have one.
I think IT suffers from some pretty high expectations on my part. So I was especially disappointed when the stopped the song dead in its tracks, just as they have done the last two epics they'd recorded. I guess I was hoping for something a little more creative this time around, not the same.

[Zook]

The ambient section in TCOT doesn't really kill the momentum since the song doesn't exactly pick up again and go balls to the wall. The rest of the song is actually sort of mellow.

[cramx3]

I often skip through the soft sections in both IT and TCOT.  Both parts kill momentum for me and while in and of themselves are nice... I just dont see how it totally fits whats going on before and after the songs.  I do like how TCOT goes into the ending though where as in IT you hear the plane and then the bass and its just like "ok... now we are back"

[ninja1125]

The middle section is the biggest problem I have with IT. I don't think it fits with the song at all unlike TCOT, ITPOE. Also, it's not that good imo.

[TheGreatPretender]

Has anyone else realized this? The thread about "where IT sits with the other epics" brought this to mind, and seeing how SDOIT, ACOS and 8VM still tend to top people's lists of DT epics, it's made me wonder why the other three would be so low, and so this all came to mind.

-Marc.

The only problem with your theory is that SDOIT has Goodnight Kiss, which "kills the momentum" just as much, if not worse than the three latest epics.

[TAC]

Has anyone else realized this? The thread about "where IT sits with the other epics" brought this to mind, and seeing how SDOIT, ACOS and 8VM still tend to top people's lists of DT epics, it's made me wonder why the other three would be so low, and so this all came to mind.

-Marc.

The only problem with your theory is that SDOIT has Goodnight Kiss, which "kills the momentum" just as much, if not worse than the three latest epics.

Yeah, technically, youre right.

[King Postwhore]

Has anyone else realized this? The thread about "where IT sits with the other epics" brought this to mind, and seeing how SDOIT, ACOS and 8VM still tend to top people's lists of DT epics, it's made me wonder why the other three would be so low, and so this all came to mind.

-Marc.

The only problem with your theory is that SDOIT has Goodnight Kiss, which "kills the momentum" just as much, if not worse than the three latest epics.

If you saw it live you wouldn't think so.

[gentaishinigami]

I love IT.  I just think there is a bit too much dead space on both sides of the middle break.  Really drags that section out longer than it needs to be and kills the momentum for me.  I usually fastforward through it so I can get to the killer stuff when the band comes back in.  I like the actual orchestra part, but hate waiting to get there.

[TheGreatPretender]

If you saw it live you wouldn't think so.

Well, same could easily be said for IT.

[cramx3]

If you saw it live you wouldn't think so.

Well, same could easily be said for IT.

Havent seen SDOIT live so I cant say, but IT seemed to kill the crowd for a bit.  Of course it comes back strong though.

[TheGreatPretender]

Havent seen SDOIT live so I cant say, but IT seemed to kill the crowd for a bit.  Of course it comes back strong though.

It let them relax and get absorbed into the atmospheric part of it. The crowd doesn't have to be jumping up and down and cheering to enjoy the music.

[Grizz]

I don't listen to Systematic Chaos at all; I don't think I've gotten through ItPoE yet. TCoT is not an epic, it's a really long song. ACoS, 8VM, and IT all have movements in the liner notes. Plus, most of the rest of the song after the ambiance is really chill. It works really well live. I've always thought that IT was horribly disjointed, with not enough reprisal, and the orchestral part is the worst part of the disjointedness.

[cramx3]

Havent seen SDOIT live so I cant say, but IT seemed to kill the crowd for a bit.  Of course it comes back strong though.

It let them relax and get absorbed into the atmospheric part of it. The crowd doesn't have to be jumping up and down and cheering to enjoy the music.

It let the band relax I am sure, but for the last song on a set and one as strong as IT, I dont think the crowd is looking to relax at that point of the concert and when I say it killed the crowd, people going to the bathroom or starting conversations isnt really getting absorbed.  Im sure many people also were getting absorbed, but I do believe the orchestral part of IT really kills the mood of the song that was built up from the begging and that also continues after that part of the song.

[erwinrafael]

As I said in other threads before, once you get the narrative of Illumination Theory, the middle section would make a lot of sense.

Live, Die, Kill posed earthly problems by asking the questions, what are you willing to live, die and kill for? It is unenlightened, unilluminated, so there are no answers yet.

The shift to the ambient section refers to a transfer from the earthly plane to a transcendental plane. It is marked by the shift from a relatively "noisy" musical atmosphere to something more reflective. The ambient section is lengthy, which I find as purposive to indicate that illumination or enlightenment does not come easily even in a moment of transcendence. But enlightenment slowly creeps in with the slow build-up of the orchestral music. Illumination is reached when the orchestra reprises the intro music from the Paradox of the Black Light section, which marks a new beginning, the difference being that this is already an enlightened one. So in contrast to Paradox, the orchestral intro is brighter, more positive, more enlightened.

After the moment of enlightenment, the song goes back from the transcendental plane to the earthly plane. This is marked by the shift from the reflective music of the orchestra to the "noisy" musical atmosphere of the real world. However, unlike Live, Die and Kill, the Pursuit of Truth section now gives answers, not questions. Which is why this is in the Illuminated half of the song.

Does the middle section kill the momentum of IT? If you do not care about the narrative, the story that the song is trying to tell, it would sound that it does. If you do pay attention to what story the song is trying to tell, the middle section makes a lot of sense. There's nothing superfluous about it at all, to the point that even the length of the ambient section makes sense.

About reprisals, IT is all about reprisal. It is about mirroring. The first section is a paradox with a dark atmosphere, the end section is a paradox with an enlightened atmosphere. The riffing section that bridges the initial paradox to the questions of Live, Die, Kill is the same as the riffing section that bridges the answers of the Pursuit of Truth to the ending paradox. The questions posed in Live, Die, Kill are answered (thus, reprised) in the mirroring section of the Pursuit of Truth. The unenlightened ambient section is mirrored by the enlightened orchestral section. The unenlightened overture in Paradox of the Black Light is reprised in an enlightened version in the orchestral section of the Embracing Circle. The song starts with a crescendo drum roll, and ends with a decrescendo drum roll. Even the lyrics of Surrender, Trust and Passion reprises each other within that small section.

I don't see how you can get any more reprisals than that within a 20-minute song. Even Octavarium does not have that perfectly mirrored structure, and that one talks about going in circles.

IT is not a song about momentum. It is a song about gaining enlightenment. Maybe it can kill momentum in a live setting, but that is not what the narrative of IT is about. It was composed to tell a story.

[TheGreatPretender]

It let the band relax I am sure, but for the last song on a set and one as strong as IT, I dont think the crowd is looking to relax at that point of the concert and when I say it killed the crowd, people going to the bathroom or starting conversations isnt really getting absorbed.  Im sure many people also were getting absorbed, but I do believe the orchestral part of IT really kills the mood of the song that was built up from the begging and that also continues after that part of the song.

Well, if the people at your venue weren't absorbed into it, then that's their loss. It was a wonderful, and beautiful little interlude, especially with that visual presentation. True, I was at the front, and I wasn't exactly examining the crowd at that moment, but I loved every second of it.

Either way, I'll take the quiet part of IT, ITPOE or TCOT over Goodnight Kiss any day.

[cramx3]

It let the band relax I am sure, but for the last song on a set and one as strong as IT, I dont think the crowd is looking to relax at that point of the concert and when I say it killed the crowd, people going to the bathroom or starting conversations isnt really getting absorbed.  Im sure many people also were getting absorbed, but I do believe the orchestral part of IT really kills the mood of the song that was built up from the begging and that also continues after that part of the song.

Well, if the people at your venue weren't absorbed into it, then that's their loss. It was a wonderful, and beautiful little interlude, especially with that visual presentation. True, I was at the front, and I wasn't exactly examining the crowd at that moment, but I loved every second of it.

Either way, I'll take the quiet part of IT, ITPOE or TCOT over Goodnight Kiss any day.

Also, compared to TCOT vs. IT live, the slow part at least has JP and JR playing it live in TCOT, when the band leaves the stage in IT it kills the crowd, not just for DT either.... all my opinion of course.  And Ill take those three over Goodnight Kiss as well, never been crazy for that song until it leads into Solitary Shell.

[erwinrafael]

Well, if the people at your venue weren't absorbed into it, then that's their loss. It was a wonderful, and beautiful little interlude, especially with that visual presentation. True, I was at the front, and I wasn't exactly examining the crowd at that moment, but I loved every second of it.

Either way, I'll take the quiet part of IT, ITPOE or TCOT over Goodnight Kiss any day.

After defending IT, I would give my two cents about SDOIT.  SDOIT, just like IT, is not about momentum. It is about a big narrative, and in the cse of SDOIT, it is about telling the story of six persons. There is not much musical continuity in SDOIT because the music in each section is supposed to fit whatever mental affliction the character in the song is experiencing. So the one with bipolar disorder has a happy rock and roll tune which transitions into a darker sounding music when she "lost her mind" (About To Crash). War Inside My Head which talks about post-war trauma is complemented by a heavy riffing tune which exudes a violent musical atmosphere. The Test That Stumped Them All talks about schizophrenia, which is why the music is confused, angry at times, even crazy. Solitary Shell talks about autism, which is why the music is softer, has an acoustic feel, more reserved.

Which brings me to Goodnight Kiss. I used to think this is a bit cheesy and like what other people said here, a momentum killer in the middle of SDOIT. THEN I had my first born a year ago. My view of the song changed drastically after that. Whenever I am listening to that song at night while my child is sleeping beside me, I hug my son. "I want you to know I'll die for one more moment..." FUCK the emotion of those lyrics and the soft music behind it. The music captured the feeling of what it feels to lose a child and become mad about it.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, if the sentimental aspect of the song adds something for you, I can respect that, but hey, same goes for me and The Best of Times, but I'm still not going to pretend like I like the music better just because I connect with the message.
Either way, the point is, regardless of what SDOIT is about, if I don't think Goodnight Kiss is that great, musically, I won't suddenly fall in love with it, even if I did have a kid.

[erwinrafael]

Well, if the sentimental aspect of the song adds something for you, I can respect that, but hey, same goes for me and The Best of Times, but I'm still not going to pretend like I like the music better just because I connect with the message.
Either way, the point is, regardless of what SDOIT is about, if I don't think Goodnight Kiss is that great, musically, I won't suddenly fall in love with it, even if I did have a kid.

Oh, no prob. I am just explaining that the music of the different sections in SDOIT fits based on the context of the song. I find that a lot in DT's music (actually in prog music). Which is why, for example, Caught In A Web has a very angsty vibe and then the solo section with DeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDe rhythm literally feels like a web is being spun around you.

[TheGreatPretender]

Oh, no prob. I am just explaining that the music of the different sections in SDOIT fits based on the context of the song. I find that a lot in DT's music (actually in prog music). Which is why, for example, Caught In A Web has a very angsty vibe and then the solo section with DeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDeDe rhythm literally feels like a web is being spun around you.

Oh, no, I know what SDOIT is about, I just prioritize music over lyrics. Which is why regardless of the context, I'll never really be able to like Dark Side of the Moon as a whole. While it has some great musical moments, some great songs, there's so much filler in there that I can't enjoy the album as a whole.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Oh, no, I know what SDOIT is about, I just prioritize music over lyrics. Which is why regardless of the context, I'll never really be able to like Dark Side of the Moon as a whole. While it has some great musical moments, some great songs, there's so much filler in there that I can't enjoy the album as a whole.

I agree with prioritizing the music itself over the lyrics, but in the case of DSOTM, that album has both fantastic lyrics and astounding musicianship. It might not appear to be the most interesting instrumentally, but I can't help but hear no filler. Even the shorter songs have a purpose and take things in a whole new direction.

In the case of Goodnight Kiss, I actually don't feel that the lyrics themselves are anything too special. What does it for me is JLB's vocal delivery, his sheer emotion behind them, and JP's solemn guitar solo. GK succeeds for me in the "instrumentation" department much more easily for me and I could also see how someone could make a much stronger connection being in a similar situation, or having a child of their own as well.

[BlobVanDam]

In the case of Goodnight Kiss, I actually don't feel that the lyrics themselves are anything too special. What does it for me is JLB's vocal delivery, his sheer emotion behind them, and JP's solemn guitar solo. GK succeeds for me in the "instrumentation" department much more easily for me and I could also see how someone could make a much stronger connection being in a similar situation, or having a child of their own as well.

Agreed. I don't pay much attention to lyrics at all, and they're extremely low priority to me, but I love GK (and all of SDOIT).
The music is a needed break for the pacing after the metal section of WIMH/TTTSTA, and then slowly builds up again, starting with the soft intro, then the drums come in with the full band, then the emotional guitar solo buildup, then becoming a bit more upbeat with Solitary Shell, then into an upbeat rocker with ATC (Reprise), then the big epic finale.
Goodnight Kiss is musically very emotional even disregarding the lyrics, for the reasons stated.

[erwinrafael]

In the case of Goodnight Kiss, I actually don't feel that the lyrics themselves are anything too special. What does it for me is JLB's vocal delivery, his sheer emotion behind them, and JP's solemn guitar solo. GK succeeds for me in the "instrumentation" department much more easily for me and I could also see how someone could make a much stronger connection being in a similar situation, or having a child of their own as well.

Agreed. I don't pay much attention to lyrics at all, and they're extremely low priority to me, but I love GK (and all of SDOIT).
The music is a needed break for the pacing after the metal section of WIMH/TTTSTA, and then slowly builds up again, starting with the soft intro, then the drums come in with the full band, then the emotional guitar solo buildup, then becoming a bit more upbeat with Solitary Shell, then into an upbeat rocker with ATC (Reprise), then the big epic finale.
Goodnight Kiss is musically very emotional even disregarding the lyrics, for the reasons stated.

Exactly. The emotional line like "I want you to know I'll die for one more moment" is delivered so emotionally by JLB, and backed up masterfully by JR's keys. Then JP delivers a heartfelt guitar solo. Amazing. And THEN they delivered music that mirrored some sort of descent to madness.

[yeah_93]

I'd agree with you if not for the fact that it remains purely subjective. For example, while IT's orchestrated section doesn't do anything for me, I like the ambient part of TCOT. While in ITPOE it's just broken in 2 sections, and I'm more bothered by Pt. 2's instrumental section rather than the slow buildup.

[?]

The ambient section in TCOT doesn't really kill the momentum since the song doesn't exactly pick up again and go balls to the wall. The rest of the song is actually sort of mellow.

Exactly. I think the ambient section works as a nice bridge between the heavy part and the ending.

[Nearmyth]

I think the songs are fine with breaks, it's just how the breaks work that kind of hinder it...

With IT, the break just does not fit the song. The song is very riffy, heavy, and intense until the break and then... What? Xanadu like ambience? Did it just get 70's prog in here? But really, it's just kind of strange to hear after the heavy beginnings of IT. The orchestra part doesn't really fit either... But i do think that the reprise of the main theme is perfect, they could've just left it at that.

With TCOT, I just think that the break is simply too long. It's very nice, fits the song, and is transitioned into nicely, but it just drags.

Then I don't really see a problem with ITPOE. Put together, the break isn't that long and there's no sudden loss of momentum... but I do kinda think the parts are better as two separate songs. Like going from Ressurection -> Heretic -> Slaughter of the Damned, all of which being verse-chorus style parts, would be weighty to get through. But that's just what I think.

I think the difference with those epics is that they don't exactly have the build-up like 8VM, or the narrative-like musicality like ACOS. I think an epic piece is fine with a break, as long it actually fits the song and doesn't feel tacked on, or isn't too long in context of the piece.