Author Topic: Where does Illumination Theory sit in relation to the other "mega-epics"?  (Read 6643 times)

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Offline Dublagent66

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I rank it dead last so I'm not gonna bother listing the others.  IT just doesn't make the cut.  Sounds like a mash up of a bunch of unoriginal ideas that don't flow together.  I compare it to a suit that looks like the lining to a better suit.  IT has a few moments here and there, but overall very disappointing.
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Offline ?

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I've read that analysis and it's good, but unfortunately it hasn't managed to affect my opinion of IT.

Offline Kotowboy

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I rank it dead last so I'm not gonna bother listing the others.  IT just doesn't make the cut.  Sounds like a mash up of a bunch of unoriginal ideas that don't flow together.  I compare it to a suit that looks like the lining to a better suit.  IT has a few moments here and there, but overall very disappointing.

Exactly how I feel about A Change Of Seasons.

Offline Sacul

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I rank it dead last so I'm not gonna bother listing the others.  IT just doesn't make the cut.  Sounds like a mash up of a bunch of unoriginal ideas that don't flow together.  I compare it to a suit that looks like the lining to a better suit.  IT has a few moments here and there, but overall very disappointing.

Exactly how I feel about A Change Of Seasons.
I'd say the same about either TCOT or 8VM.

Offline Lucien

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I like all of their epics, but I'd feel either SDOIT or ACOS are the most disjointed. Doesn't make them bad, after all, most multimovement pieces (namely Symphonies) are completely disjointed between movements that have nothing to do with each other.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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I like all of their epics, but I'd feel either SDOIT or ACOS are the most disjointed. Doesn't make them bad, after all, most multimovement pieces (namely Symphonies) are completely disjointed between movements that have nothing to do with each other.

Yeah, I really don't get why things like being disjointed, or the presence of wankery are considered bad things. They're what makes TD unique. Having one song that sounds like several songs in one, going back and forth between different themes, is one of the greatest things about DT.
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Offline Nearmyth

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1. Octavarium

2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

3. A Change of Seasons

4. Illumination Theory

5. In The Presence of Enemies

6. The Count of Tuscany

Honestly some of the middle 2-5 are pretty interchangeable, but I never thought of Count of Tuscany as a full blown DT "epic," and the break in the middle reaalllyy disconnects the song for me. It's pretty and all, but being so long it gets hard for me to sit through. I have the same problem with IT, but to a lesser extent.

 On the other hand, 8VM is a quintessential DT epic in my eyes and is almost flawless considering the theme and its purpose etc.etc. It's just build up and build up and you're not really sure where it's going until the last 5-6 minutes and you're just like *mind blown* :D

I also am against the popular opinion that SDOIT and ACOS or the likes are disjointed. I think the parts of each epic flow perfectly. The only jarring change I really see is from War Inside My Head -> Test That Stumped Them All
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Offline The Holy Tune

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Octavarium tops my list.
IT comes second by a little difference over the third.
And that third is ACOS.
6DOIT is my fourth. Even though I love it so much, never managed to give me the feels the first 3 did.
ITPOE is a hard song, the topic is wonderful and how they progressed through it is great. But is only the fifth.
TCOT is the last among these 6. I still love it very much, but it feels very cheesy compared to 8VM or IT or 6DOIT in the way it tells the story.

Yep, that's all ;D

Offline yeah_93

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1. A Change of Seasons: There are parts I really don't like, but the rest is pure gold.

2. Octavarium: I like the song, but I don't love it.

3. The Count of Tuscany: Good, but cheesy.

4. In the Presence of Enemies: It would rank higher, but it don't like the long instrumental section and ending of Pt. 2.

5. Illumination Theory: Orchestra feels out of place, and it took me a while to like this song.

6. Six Degrees: Too long.

Offline erwinrafael

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It sometimes feels weird to read posts criticizing IT as disjointed, and then praising ACOS at the same time.  :lol

Offline ?

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It sometimes feels weird to read posts criticizing IT as disjointed, and then praising ACOS at the same time.  :lol
Perhaps it's because ACOS doesn't have a 4-minute ambient/orchestral break that comes out of nowhere and destroys all the momentum?

Offline TheGreatPretender

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It sometimes feels weird to read posts criticizing IT as disjointed, and then praising ACOS at the same time.  :lol
Perhaps it's because ACOS doesn't have a 4-minute ambient/orchestral break that comes out of nowhere and destroys all the momentum?

It's like a good action movie. If it bombards you with non-stop action all the way through, you grow numb to the excitement that brings. But if it takes periodical breaks to develop the story, and gets your mind off the action for a bit, then when it does come back, it's that much more exciting, and this is precisely the case for IT.
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Offline erwinrafael

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It sometimes feels weird to read posts criticizing IT as disjointed, and then praising ACOS at the same time.  :lol
Perhaps it's because ACOS doesn't have a 4-minute ambient/orchestral break that comes out of nowhere and destroys all the momentum?

while ACOS has a choo-choo train that goes chugga-chugga which comes out of nowhere and drives the song in a very different direction.  :lol

I wouldn't say that the IT ambient and orchestral section came out of nowhere. once you see the whole - The BIGGER PICTURE - you would see that it actually fits and that it has been telegraphed in the Live, Die, Kill section.

Offline PixelDream

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1. Octavarium - DT's latter day masterpiece.
2. A Change of Seasons - Their classic epic that got improved on with Octavarium.. unbelievable.
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Impressive, versatile storytelling. A bit all over the place, but never boring.
4. The Count of Tuscany - I don't consider it a pure 'epic' but I guess it qualifies. Especially the instrumental sections and the outro are outstanding.
5. In the Presence of Enemies - Part 1 is a highlight, part 2 has grown on me over time.
6. Illumination Theory - Doesn't feel quite as 'authentic' as the others. It sure has great moments though. The orchestral section was amazing the first couple of times.. not so much anymore.
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Offline Dublagent66

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It sometimes feels weird to read posts criticizing IT as disjointed, and then praising ACOS at the same time.  :lol
Perhaps it's because ACOS doesn't have a 4-minute ambient/orchestral break that comes out of nowhere and destroys all the momentum?

Yeah, that section reminds me of a movie soundtrack.  Wasn't I just listening to a prog metal band?  All of a sudden it's chick flick music.  ???
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Offline kirksnosehair

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1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
I don't think of this as an "epic" but more as a collection of songs that are all related to each other, unified by the lyrical topic along with a few reprises and such. Still, I think the writing here is on a different level than most of the modern-era stuff.




2. A Change Of Seasons
Well crafted musically, pretty powerful lyrically, but the production is...not good.  Especially the drums.


3. The Count of Tuscany
I'd prefer that the swell section be about 2 or 3 minutes shorter "sucking on his pipe/making me uptight"  -nuff said.


4. In The Presence Of Enemies
I really love the first half.  The second half kinda loses me when the "dark master" stuff gets going. But musically I think this whole thing is pretty tight and well-crafted.


***gaping bottomless chasm***


5. Octavarium
If I could make it past the intro before falling asleep, I guess I would ask one question "What the fuck is this song about?  :lol   It's OK musically with some pretty cool riffs and decent melodies, but a lot of the lyrics are either nonsensical or indecipherable in terms of message.   




6. Illumination Theory - I tried really hard, but I just don't like it.  The orchestra thing just doesn't work for me.  I think it would have been fine if it were the opening or closing section of the song, but sticking it in the middle like that?  I had to load the song into my DAW and surgically remove it in order to make the song listenable.    The last 5 or so minutes of it are awesome, though.

Offline Dirty30

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1) Six Degrees
2) Octavarium
3) Illumination Theory
4) A Change of Seasons
5) Count of Tuscany
6) In the Presence of Enemies

Offline philippaopao

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1) Illumination Theory - very ambitious lyrical content, ambient and orchestra section doesn't bother me; it's actually the perfect section to listen to when you're reflecting while on a long commute, well the whole music is reflective actually without being forced to become an intellectual mess.

2) Octavarium - just like IT, only a notch lower because it quite overcomplicates itself by establishing itself in a pseudo-concept album, with all the "surrender, trust, faith and desire" and "nightmare cinema show" parts

3) A Change of Seasons - impressive movements, very enjoyable to listen by its parts, but can be jarring to listen to as a whole because of the lyrics that are pretty personal.

4) Six Degrees - same with ACOS, only a notch lower because it's too long for its own sake; the latter movements (reprise and losing time / grand finale) sound rushed and forcefully ended that it looks like the band suddenly ran out of lyrical ideas.

5) Count of Tuscany - really awesome song structure (that could actually be compared to the likes of IT) let down by its lyrics; I couldn't connect with it emotionally, and I do think it's ridiculous.

6) In the Presence of Enemies - Not a fan of the lyrics; better than TCOT's, but it's not the main reason why it's the last. The whole song sounds really forced to be "dark" that it sounds too cheesy for me. The unisons add to the forcefulness. The evil-sounding themes are not my cup of tea, but the first part sounds good though.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 10:07:36 PM by philippaopao »

Offline 54_diplomats

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1. A Change of Seasons - Probably my favorite DT song. Absolutely love it. A lot of emotion in here.

2. Octavarium - The way this song builds up is utter perfection.

3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Not much to say here. Great stuff though

4. The Count of Tuscany - I think the music is brilliant here and downright chilling, but those lyrics man... Love this song regardless.

5. Illumination Theory - This song is great, but there's something that holds it back for me that I can't really specify. I guess if I had to call it something it'd be how the song flows. I also don't really care much for the very end portion (not sure what the fan's call it). The song has great vocals and lyrics and the beginning of the song is awesome.

6. In the Presence of Enemies - I place this last because of part 2. I LOVE part 1. It would be in IT's spot if it was just part 1, but that wouldn't make an epic lol. I mean part 2 is fine... until The Reckoning. The Reckoning bogs this song down for me soooo much it hurts. I really don't like this section and it feels like it plays for an eternity.

Offline The Holy Tune

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4) Six Degrees - same with ACOS, only a notch lower because it's too long for its own sake; the latter movements (reprise and losing time / grand finale) sound rushed and forcefully ended that it looks like the band suddenly ran out of lyrical ideas.

Oh yeah, that's something I couldn't remember of about 6DOIT. Every chapter has perfect lyrics, but Losing Time/Grand Finale doesn't sound that grand.

Online Podaar

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5. Octavarium
If I could make it past the intro before falling asleep, I guess I would ask one question "What the fuck is this song about?  :lol   It's OK musically with some pretty cool riffs and decent melodies, but a lot of the lyrics are either nonsensical or indecipherable in terms of message.   


 :lol I love the Octavarium quote above.

I'm listening to it right now because of all the high marks it gets in this thread...and it starts out okay...a little slow but honestly up until the moog solo by JR...it is just too much foreplay. Stop with the dry humping and yank the zipper down already!

The music behind MP's lyrics is awesome but the call outs to band influences is just jarring and nonsensical. Then the instrumental kicks in and you think, "That's what I'm on about." Oh, and that unison  :metal  Then the big build up with JLB delivering lines through gritted teeth and flying spittal culminates in epic screams. I'm just about to...about to...to...

Holy shit their injecting me with thorazine! Noooooooo, the razor's too dull. Don't cut me Mommy. Please :sad:
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Offline haceeb

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1. Illumination Theory
2. Octavarium
3. The Count of Tuscany
4. A Change Of Seasons
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
6. In The Presence Of Enemies


next time, ask something difficult   :rollin


Offline James Sucellus

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The only one of these I don't love is In the Presence of Enemies, and that's entirely because of the second part. Hard to rank them.

Offline SuperProgBros

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A Change Of Seasons
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium

The Count Of Tuscany
In The Presence Of Enemies

Illumination Theory

Offline Sir Walrus Cauliflower

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This is extremely difficult for me to rank. Everything except for 8VM moves a lot.

-Octavarium: I enjoy every second of this song. I've loved it since I heard it, and it was the first DT epic I heard. The structure seems natural, and each movement feels like a meaningful addition to the song

- In The Presence of Enemies: ITPOE1 is a very strong opener, and ITPOE2 a strong closer. Besides just enjoying the song, it has an interesting theme. I also love it when people chant things

- Illumination Theory: Was an amazing live song, and the most impressed I was vocally with James on DT12. Great riffs, and beautiful orchestral and piano section. If only I enjoyed the sound of windchimes and birds a little more (I understand why it's there, though)

- Six Degress of Inner Turbulence: I adore four parts, like two of them, and can't stand another two

- A Change of Seasons: great song, but I wore it out a bit. While I still listen to it, and get occasional chills, it doesn't stand out as much as epics mentioned above
 
- The Count of Tuscany: If only it was about something more captivating than some weird guy who owns wine and tells stories. Interesting theme, but not in the way I'd prefer. great melodies and riffs, but I can't get around the lyrical content. It's a strong song, but not as strong as the others
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