Author Topic: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies  (Read 9572 times)

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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2014, 07:03:47 PM »
I think jammindude's point was that in the old days, bullies were hindered by the fact that adults would hit them.  Now that adults can't hit them anymore, the game has changed, and maybe that makes it more difficult for modern kids to cope.

Or maybe that wasn't his point at all.  I'm not sure.  Either way, I think it's a valid point. 
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2014, 07:04:26 PM »
I think hitting kids is wrong.

Virtually no kid ever does anything bad enough to deserve that kind of terror and sense of shame.

Even bullies are too stupid to know better.

You make it sound like two teachers hold a kid down while another one gives them a right hook!   I guess it's just semantics...but to me there is a BIG difference between a swat in the butt and "hitting a child"...   
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Offline Chino

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2014, 07:04:27 PM »
Well, back in the day, a teacher could hit a child if he was being a douche.

Do you think this is a good thing?


I'm not sure. There's a difference between spanking a kid/embarrassing him and beating the shit out of them. There was a time when parents trusted teachers and were involved in the classroom much more often. I'm sure it wasn't as bad having a person you knew and trusted giving your child a little love tap for the sake of discipline. Today, most parents don't know their childrens' teachers' name, so a complete stranger might as well be striking your kid (hence a lot of the opposition, IMO). The line is vague. Whatever you're stance, I'd be willing to bet bullying occurred less back then because of that. If you made another kid feel bad, or injured them in an attempt to be cool, the teacher made you look very uncool without skipping a beat.

Offline Chino

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2014, 07:07:33 PM »
I think hitting kids is wrong.

Virtually no kid ever does anything bad enough to deserve that kind of terror and sense of shame.

Even bullies are too stupid to know better.

There's a big difference between hitting a kid to inflict terror and hitting a kid to remind them that they have an authority figure. A mother cat will bite the back of a cub's neck and carry it away, but she won't break skin. Behavior like that is seen throughout the entire animal kingdom. There's no reason human children should be any different (in theory).

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2014, 07:10:31 PM »
There's a big difference between hitting a kid to inflict terror and hitting a kid to remind them that they have an authority figure.

That's even worse.  If your authority is so nonexistent that you need to use physical violence to exert it, you don't have much authority.

You make it sound like two teachers hold a kid down while another one gives them a right hook!   I guess it's just semantics...but to me there is a BIG difference between a swat in the butt and "hitting a child"...   

At least if the teachers are holding the kid down, the kid's resisting.

Telling a kid to stand still for his spanking is even more dehumanizing.  "Participate in your own debasement."

EDIT:  As someone who can't do things alone in my own house without feeling constantly embarrassed, I have to strongly oppose embarrassing kids under any circumstances.  The emotional repercussions are too vast.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2014, 07:20:13 PM »
There's a big difference between hitting a kid to inflict terror and hitting a kid to remind them that they have an authority figure.

That's even worse.  If your authority is so nonexistent that you need to use physical violence to exert it, you don't have much authority.


Don't have much authority? Every child in the history of ever has tested their boundaries with their parents. That's what humans do. It's a critical time during development when the child is either taught about repercussions or they aren't. I'm not condoning physical 'violence'. I'm not saying punch your kid in the back of the head, or pin them against a wall and give them some lashes. I'm talking about an action that reminds the child that "Wow, this person (the parent) is way bigger and stronger than me. Maybe I shouldn't piss them off and instead do as they say". If a child is acting like a little shit, while causing a scene and being a douche, even after being asked to stop, a mother has every right to grab their arm, with a strong grip (maybe a little nail in there), and lead them away. It's not violence, it's a dominant action.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2014, 07:24:10 PM »
I am 100% with Chino on this one.   And I think the lack of this is what is SERIOUSLY wrong with so many kids today.   
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2014, 07:30:03 PM »
There's a big difference between hitting a kid to inflict terror and hitting a kid to remind them that they have an authority figure.

That's even worse.  If your authority is so nonexistent that you need to use physical violence to exert it, you don't have much authority.


Don't have much authority? Every child in the history of ever has tested their boundaries with their parents. That's what humans do. It's a critical time during development when the child is either taught about repercussions or they aren't. I'm not condoning physical 'violence'. I'm not saying punch your kid in the back of the head, or pin them against a wall and give them some lashes. I'm talking about an action that reminds the child that "Wow, this person (the parent) is way bigger and stronger than me. Maybe I shouldn't piss them off and instead do as they say". If a child is acting like a little shit, while causing a scene and being a douche, even after being asked to stop, a mother has every right to grab their arm, with a strong grip (maybe a little nail in there), and lead them away. It's not violence, it's a dominant action.

As much as I'm concerned about the edges of the application of this, I have to agree.
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Offline Lucien

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2014, 07:41:51 PM »
Worked on me in hindsight. Lots of things I know not to do that I learned early in life due to my mother (or father) pulling me away or spanking me (generally not hard).
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2014, 08:00:34 PM »

Don't have much authority? Every child in the history of ever has tested their boundaries with their parents. That's what humans do. It's a critical time during development when the child is either taught about repercussions or they aren't. I'm not condoning physical 'violence'. I'm not saying punch your kid in the back of the head, or pin them against a wall and give them some lashes. I'm talking about an action that reminds the child that "Wow, this person (the parent) is way bigger and stronger than me. Maybe I shouldn't piss them off and instead do as they say". If a child is acting like a little shit, while causing a scene and being a douche, even after being asked to stop, a mother has every right to grab their arm, with a strong grip (maybe a little nail in there), and lead them away. It's not violence, it's a dominant action.
Therein lies the rub. Has your boss ever paddled you because you screwed something up at work? Has a cop ever tazed you for driving 43/30? Has a judge ever sentenced you to go pick a switch off of that elm tree out yonder so he can whip you with it? In the real world people are punished by having something they want taken away from them. Some money, their job, or occasionally their freedom. When physical discipline is used in the real world it's seen as exceptional. I don't think paddling kids is evil or anything, but I think real life deterrents are going to be more effective all the way around. Like so many things related to punishment, the best solution is rarely the brute force approach.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2014, 10:42:52 PM »
I'm defending the mom because three people said she was wrong to even let her son wear his My Little Pony bag to school.  Two called her a moron and one likened it to child abuse.  That's messed up.

Yes, I'm assuming that as a good parent, she talked to him ahead of time, warned him that he'd get some shit about it.  But I didn't say that.  I said that for all we know, she talked to him, and that, to me, is exactly what a responsible parent does.  Don't call her a moron for letting her son express his individuality.  Maybe call her a moron for not preparing him for the shit he'd be getting at school, but we don't know either way, so the people calling her that are just plain wrong.

Maybe moron wasn't the best word to use; I will concede that.  But I stand by my opinion that she did her no child no favors by letting him take that to school.

The school punishing the child and not the bullies is still a freaking joke, either way.

There's a big difference between hitting a kid to inflict terror and hitting a kid to remind them that they have an authority figure.

That's even worse.  If your authority is so nonexistent that you need to use physical violence to exert it, you don't have much authority.


Don't have much authority? Every child in the history of ever has tested their boundaries with their parents. That's what humans do. It's a critical time during development when the child is either taught about repercussions or they aren't. I'm not condoning physical 'violence'. I'm not saying punch your kid in the back of the head, or pin them against a wall and give them some lashes. I'm talking about an action that reminds the child that "Wow, this person (the parent) is way bigger and stronger than me. Maybe I shouldn't piss them off and instead do as they say". If a child is acting like a little shit, while causing a scene and being a douche, even after being asked to stop, a mother has every right to grab their arm, with a strong grip (maybe a little nail in there), and lead them away. It's not violence, it's a dominant action.

Agreed.  Granted, I don't think teachers should be spanking misbehaving students, but if you ask me if I think a parent spanking (not beating) his/her child is okay, then I am going to say yes.  The problem is that some parents take it too far and beat their kids asses to where it becomes child abuse, but my brothers and I all got the occasional spanking when we were kids, all of which we pretty much deserved, and yet we all somehow ended up being normal, well-functioning adults.  Crazy, isn't it? :lol

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2014, 07:44:28 AM »
If a child is acting like a little shit, while causing a scene and being a douche, even after being asked to stop, a mother has every right to grab their arm, with a strong grip (maybe a little nail in there), and lead them away. It's not violence, it's a dominant action.

That's not violence or hitting your kid though.

EDIT:  Don't do the nail thing though.  All it did was make me want to listen less.

EDIT2:  Kids aren't stupid.  They know when you're just trying to inflict punishment, and all those little resentments will just build and build.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 08:13:54 AM by ReaPsTA »
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2014, 07:59:52 AM »
I'm defending the mom because three people said she was wrong to even let her son wear his My Little Pony bag to school.  Two called her a moron and one likened it to child abuse.  That's messed up.

Yes, I'm assuming that as a good parent, she talked to him ahead of time, warned him that he'd get some shit about it.  But I didn't say that.  I said that for all we know, she talked to him, and that, to me, is exactly what a responsible parent does.  Don't call her a moron for letting her son express his individuality.  Maybe call her a moron for not preparing him for the shit he'd be getting at school, but we don't know either way, so the people calling her that are just plain wrong.

Maybe moron wasn't the best word to use; I will concede that.  But I stand by my opinion that she did her no child no favors by letting him take that to school.

We'll have to disagree on that.  There are things that kids should not do, dangerous and/or illegal things, and those are the things that parents have to stand firm on.  Playing with fire.  Teasing the neighbor's pit bull.  And then there are the things which probably aren't a great idea, which we try to talk them out of, but if they insist on doing it and throw a shit-fit, fine, let 'em do it.  As a parent, you have to choose your battles.  You cannot be seen as someone who always has to be right and never lets the kid do what he wants.  That leads to a feeling of repression and ultimately rebellion.  Even if it's far from the truth, it's how they see it.  So give in sometimes, let the kid feel his victory.  Then let him go to school and get teased mercilessly, and then he'll see that mom was right.  It's a tough call, but sometimes you do have to let them learn the hard way.

Or maybe he'll even come out of it stronger, feeling like yeah they tease me but I don't give a shit.  So ultimately, even though it's just the expression you used, I think she did do him a favor.  Better learn this lesson now than later on when the stakes are higher.

The school punishing the child and not the bullies is still a freaking joke, either way.

Yeah, that was really my point in posting this article, although the other big topic of discussion also occurred to me.

Offline jsem

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2014, 09:26:30 AM »
I know it shouldn't be said, but there's a lot of truth to "boys will be boys".

That might excuse the bullies for being assholes (might - I'm not so sure, myself), but it doesn't excuse the school for backing them up on it.  The school's response would seem to suggest that wearing a MLP backpack is a greater offense than beating up fellow students.  As far as I'm concerned, that's just wrong on every level.
Completely agree with Jaffa here.

The fact that people even make this argument, boys will be boys, is one of the reasons IMO that aggression isn't being dealt with at a fundamental level. It shows people's reluctance to actually confront the problem.
Well, back in the day, a teacher could hit a child if he was being a douche. Now they can barely ask them to be quiet without getting suspended and the school getting sued.
And parents can still hit their children in the US AFAIK. Kids learn bullying in their households before they bring it to school. I can hardly see school corporal punishment having a positive long term effect on children's behavior. Data would suggest the opposite.

Offline Chino

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2014, 09:44:16 AM »
Kids learn bullying in their households before they bring it to school.

I don't think this is true at all. I think this is deeply rooted in our genes. It may not seem practical in today's society, but at one time was vital to human (and many other animals') survival.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2014, 10:08:28 AM »
I know it shouldn't be said, but there's a lot of truth to "boys will be boys".

That might excuse the bullies for being assholes (might - I'm not so sure, myself), but it doesn't excuse the school for backing them up on it.  The school's response would seem to suggest that wearing a MLP backpack is a greater offense than beating up fellow students.  As far as I'm concerned, that's just wrong on every level.
Completely agree with Jaffa here.

The fact that people even make this argument, boys will be boys, is one of the reasons IMO that aggression isn't being dealt with at a fundamental level. It shows people's reluctance to actually confront the problem.
Yours is a perspective I'm particularly interested in. Is there a problem with this in Sweden? Bullying to the extent that 12 year olds go home and hang themselves? I'm really wondering how much of this is cultural.
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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2014, 02:17:24 PM »
Views on corporal punishment are evolving, but this thread demonstrates that they still have a way to go.  Similar situation with many social issues. (see: gay marriage, cannabis use, etc)  As we progress as a species we learn new things and adapt.  There's really not much evidence at all to support the use of corporal punishment.  You'll be hard pressed to find any peer-reviewed studies -outside of quacks and junk science peddlers- that support the use of corporal punishment.  In fact the American Psychological Association published a pretty damning case against it:


Quote

A growing body of research has shown that spanking and other forms of physical discipline can pose serious risks to children, but many parents aren't hearing the message.


“It’s a very controversial area even though the research is extremely telling and very clear and consistent about the negative effects on children,” says Sandra Graham-Bermann, PhD, a psychology professor and principal investigator for the Child Violence and Trauma Laboratory at the University of Michigan. “People get frustrated and hit their kids. Maybe they don’t see there are other options.”


Many studies have shown that physical punishment — including spanking, hitting and other means of causing pain — can lead to increased aggression, antisocial behavior, physical injury and mental health problems for children. Americans’ acceptance of physical punishment has declined since the 1960s, yet surveys show that two-thirds of Americans still approve of parents spanking their kids.
But spanking doesn't work, says Alan Kazdin, PhD, a Yale University psychology professor and director of the Yale Parenting Center and Child Conduct Clinic. “You cannot punish out these behaviors that you do not want,” says Kazdin, who served as APA president in 2008. “There is no need for corporal punishment based on the research. We are not giving up an effective technique. We are saying this is a horrible thing that does not work.”


Offline jsem

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2014, 02:34:44 PM »
Views on corporal punishment are evolving, but this thread demonstrates that they still have a way to go.  Similar situation with many social issues. (see: gay marriage, cannabis use, etc)  As we progress as a species we learn new things and adapt.  There's really not much evidence at all to support the use of corporal punishment.  You'll be hard pressed to find any peer-reviewed studies -outside of quacks and junk science peddlers- that support the use of corporal punishment.  In fact the American Psychological Association published a pretty damning case against it:
Exactly. There's no evidence suggesting that corporal punishment is beneficial at all. People will always cite their own anecdotal evidence, but wouldn't you think that if it was beneficial, there would be consensus in research stating the same?

Offline Lucien

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2014, 02:53:40 PM »
Views on corporal punishment are evolving, but this thread demonstrates that they still have a way to go.  Similar situation with many social issues. (see: gay marriage, cannabis use, etc)  As we progress as a species we learn new things and adapt.  There's really not much evidence at all to support the use of corporal punishment.  You'll be hard pressed to find any peer-reviewed studies -outside of quacks and junk science peddlers- that support the use of corporal punishment.  In fact the American Psychological Association published a pretty damning case against it:


Quote

A growing body of research has shown that spanking and other forms of physical discipline can pose serious risks to children, but many parents aren't hearing the message.


“It’s a very controversial area even though the research is extremely telling and very clear and consistent about the negative effects on children,” says Sandra Graham-Bermann, PhD, a psychology professor and principal investigator for the Child Violence and Trauma Laboratory at the University of Michigan. “People get frustrated and hit their kids. Maybe they don’t see there are other options.”


Many studies have shown that physical punishment — including spanking, hitting and other means of causing pain — can lead to increased aggression, antisocial behavior, physical injury and mental health problems for children. Americans’ acceptance of physical punishment has declined since the 1960s, yet surveys show that two-thirds of Americans still approve of parents spanking their kids.
But spanking doesn't work, says Alan Kazdin, PhD, a Yale University psychology professor and director of the Yale Parenting Center and Child Conduct Clinic. “You cannot punish out these behaviors that you do not want,” says Kazdin, who served as APA president in 2008. “There is no need for corporal punishment based on the research. We are not giving up an effective technique. We are saying this is a horrible thing that does not work.”



Spanking never caused me to become aggressive or antisocial. :dunno: I might have resented them at the time of occurrence, but I respect my parents fully. This "study" doesn't apply to everyone.
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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2014, 03:01:36 PM »
Agreed.   I was spanked as a child (not often...but a few times) and I was a complete wuss in school.   Always ran from fights.   Heck, bullying in school gave me FAR FAR FAR more anxiety than a whoopin from my father did. 

Now, I do believe that if you are learning how to *actually be aggressive* at home THEN you are far more likely to treat other kids with aggression.   But my father was not aggressive....and his spankings were never dealt out in anger.  (which is another important distinction that I'm certain has never been made in those studies...  They only look at whether someone was spanked or not, they don't look into the possible difference of someone being spanked as a form of correction, or an out of control spanking that is being dealt out with extreme aggression)
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2014, 03:11:56 PM »
"increased antisocial behavior" not "become antisocial"

There's a big difference.
I'm a very anxious, timid person, and I have no doubt in my mind that corporal punishment played a part in that. Not that I'm demonizing my parents, because it wasn't something they did very often, their parents spanked them so it was naturally something they learned as a kid that parents could do that, and it was nothing more than a brief spanking, but I used to go up to my room afterwards and cry and wonder why mom or dad had spanked me. Same went for when my mom would shout at us when me and my little siblings were goofing around instead of helping pick up the house which we did as a family once a week or month; used to scare the bejeezus out of me and I'd go sit in a corner and cry for a little while, before timidly getting back to picking up my room or the downstairs living room, and avoiding everybody for most of the night.
As an adult, I'm a very timid person, and get nervous around other people, I don't like putting myself out there in social situations. This has a lot more to do than just with corporal punishment, but I have no doubt in my mind that it has it's part in who I am.

Offline jsem

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2014, 03:14:10 PM »
Spanking never caused me to become aggressive or antisocial. :dunno: I might have resented them at the time of occurrence, but I respect my parents fully. This "study" doesn't apply to everyone.
Again with this anecdotal evidence. The "I turned out fine" is a horrendous argument that is going to keep corporal punishment alive for generations. A lot of people won't die from lung cancer due to smoking, but it increases the risk. You didn't turn out aggressive or antisocial, but it certainly increased the risk.

And it is not only one study, several meta-analyses have found the same thing. It is linked to higher rates of alcohol and drug abuse later in life, lower IQ levels, crime etc.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2014, 03:49:02 PM »
Again with this anecdotal evidence. The "I turned out fine" is a horrendous argument that is going to keep corporal punishment alive for generations.

Actually, it is a GREAT argument.  For starters, it is far more reliable than a study of random cases where whoever is conducting the study does not know all the variables about each and every subject's upbringing over the extended period of their upbringing.  Lucien knows exactly how he was raised, and knows firsthand whether corporal punishment worked for him or created problems.  You dismissing that honestly sounds like you simply have an agenda and are fine with "study shopping" to find studies that agree with your preconceived conclusion.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2014, 04:04:36 PM »
Smoking cigarettes and coke in various forms never got me addicted, but I wouldn't go making claims that smoking crack or Marlboros isn't addictive. There will always be exceptions, but anecdotal evidence should never be used when discussing broad subjects (or vice versa). In this case smacking your kid around might not turn him into a monster but it seems that it might up the odds of it happening.

And for that matter, I don't go around pronouncing myself to be perfectly normal, either.  :lol
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2014, 05:57:29 PM »
Apples and oranges.  Crack and nicotein have objective chemical qualities that make them highly addictive.  Anecdotal evidence from the small minority that have not become addictive would not be relevant in that scenario.  Not to mention the fact that both the addition and the cause can be medically proven.  These two things aren't even in the same zipcode.
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Offline jsem

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2014, 06:03:36 PM »
Again with this anecdotal evidence. The "I turned out fine" is a horrendous argument that is going to keep corporal punishment alive for generations.

Actually, it is a GREAT argument.  For starters, it is far more reliable than a study of random cases where whoever is conducting the study does not know all the variables about each and every subject's upbringing over the extended period of their upbringing.  Lucien knows exactly how he was raised, and knows firsthand whether corporal punishment worked for him or created problems.  You dismissing that honestly sounds like you simply have an agenda and are fine with "study shopping" to find studies that agree with your preconceived conclusion.
I know he might have turned out OK. I don't doubt that it is the case. Just because some people aren't negatively affected as a result of corporal punishment does not mean it is good or even necessary practice.

And I really appreciate personal attacks, as seemingly I have an agenda and am picking and choosing among studies. I could say the same thing about anyone defending the use of CP, as them trying to defend their own parents' child rearing as justified. I haven't seen many people actually quote research when defending CP though, they usually rely on anecdotal evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home#Research_on_parental_corporal_punishment

Here's some good data, several meta-analyses in different directions:
http://goodparent.org/corporal-punishment/research-on-corporal-punishment/analyses-of-specific-research-on-corporal-punishment/

Concluding statement form one of the meta-analyses marked as green in the link above:
link to actual meta-analysis
Quote
Results from the current study indicate a trivial to small, but generally significant relationship between the use of spanking and CP and
long-term negative outcomes. It is recommended that social scientists
take a more conservative approach when discussing the effects of
spanking and CP to the general public than has sometimes been the
case. That is to say, scholars should take greater care not to exaggerate the magnitude and conclusiveness of the negative consequences
of spanking/CP to the general public, particularly when their statements may generalize beyond the evidence. This does not mean
that scholars should endorse spanking; there may be reasonable arguments to suggest that spanking confers no particular benefits and
thus might easily be replaced with alternative discipline strategies.
However, over-generalizing from the data might easily backfire, decreasing the credibility of scholarly statements on parenting research
overall. It is hoped that the current study will be a positive contribution to the scholarly debates on spanking and CP effects.

But then, some meta-analyses suggest that corporal punishment have negative impacts:
http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=518458

Or even go as far as outright saying that corporal punishment has no place whatsoever in child rearing:
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=2002-01514-001
http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/pdfs/Gershoff-2002.pdf

Go read the second link from the top I provided, and find out for yourself reading up on several meta-analyses.

The literature seems to be anywhere in the spectrum from abandoning CP to saying that moderate use has little impact. To this I would say that dropping it altogether is a safer bet, since you're not missing out on the many supposed benefits of CP.


But to get back to the point: I can't believe there are people that are blaming the victim for wearing some MLP gear. I don't believe that we are inherently violent as a species either, it is an acquired behavior. It is learnt somewhere, and I'd argue that it's learnt in the household. Bullying can only be dealt with when abusive parenting gets dealt with.

Offline Lucien

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2014, 06:09:34 PM »
But to get back to the point: I can't believe there are people that are blaming the victim for wearing some MLP gear. I don't believe that we are inherently violent as a species either, it is an acquired behavior. It is learnt somewhere, and I'd argue that it's learnt in the household. Bullying can only be dealt with when abusive parenting gets dealt with.

Aren't we also supposed to be taught that fighting and teasing and being a dick in general is a bad thing? Sometimes I think people just don't get that. I also hear a lot that it's the kids who's parents "don't care what their kids do" that end up being bullies. No one is an authority, no one tells them what to do, and they feel invulnerable to any consequence of being harmful to other people. It's really strange how bullying works.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2014, 06:12:30 PM »
Oh...there's where I COMPLETELY disagree.   

Ever seen a child throw a violent temper tantrum while their very calm parent stands idly by doing absolutely nothing....because they have NEVER done anything violent before?   I have...   

I believe that when we are in our immature phase of life, we lash out in violent frustration when we think our feelings aren't coming across.   That is an INHERENTLY VIOLENT REACTION.     Now, you can argue that in some cases, it's been shown that we can nullify those actions by non-physical means.   But that's a different argument than what you're claiming.    You claimed we are not INHERENTLY VIOLENT.    I completely disagree.    I guarantee you that a child who is raised in a completely non-violent, non-threatening, sedate and peaceful household will STILL lash out violently upon occasion when they are not getting their way.    That is in their INHERENT NATURE.
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Offline Lucien

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2014, 06:17:46 PM »
I think what I was trying to say is that is why we teach them not to be that way. We are inherently violent, so our parents teach us the wrongness of violence early on. The parents that don't teach the kids that being violent is a bad thing, the parents that let their kids have their way everytime... May or may not become the bullies spoken about here.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

"The quantity of money becomes to an ever greater degree its sole effective quality. Just as it reduces everything to its abstract form, so it reduces itself in the course of its own movement to quantitative being. Excess and intemperance come to be its true norm."

Offline jammindude

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2014, 06:33:58 PM »
You beat me to the post....my disagreement was aimed at jsem.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2014, 06:39:22 PM »
I think what I was trying to say is that is why we teach them not to be that way. We are inherently violent, so our parents teach us the wrongness of violence early on.

If the goal is to teach kids not to be violent, I don’t see how being violent toward them is supposed to accomplish that.

Of course, this is kind of a tricky subject, because everybody is going to have different ideas of what ‘violence’ means.  That makes it difficult to get on the same page.  Personally, I tend to lean toward the number two definition on dictionary.com: “rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment.”  In my own words, I would define violence as any physical action which causes another person physical pain.  I don’t expect everybody to agree with that definition, but I wanted to put it out there to explain where I’m coming from.
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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2014, 06:46:12 PM »
I think what I was trying to say is that is why we teach them not to be that way. We are inherently violent, so our parents teach us the wrongness of violence early on.

If the goal is to teach kids not to be violent, I don’t see how being violent toward them is supposed to accomplish that.

Of course, this is kind of a tricky subject, because everybody is going to have different ideas of what ‘violence’ means.  That makes it difficult to get on the same page.  Personally, I tend to lean toward the number two definition on dictionary.com: “rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment.”  In my own words, I would define violence as any physical action which causes another person physical pain.  I don’t expect everybody to agree with that definition, but I wanted to put it out there to explain where I’m coming from.

Remember though that we are not talking about "equal opposite"....most of the time (if done right) the reaction from the parent can be calm, but firm...but certainly physical...and doesn't even have to be the same level of force as what the child is using.   At some point, if established at a very early age, a natural feeling that the parent "means business" will usually cause a child to back down. 

One thing is for sure...even though I was a spanker, I preferred to avoid it.   But I never avoided intimidation if I felt it was warranted.     Because the upside is that if it's established early (at least in my case) it almost never needs to be repeated.     Same with spanking.   I would countdown from 3....and my kids know what happened when I got to zero.   Once I followed through the first time, I almost NEVER had to follow through again.    90% of all tantrums ended before I even got to  2.   :xbones
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Offline Lucien

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2014, 07:13:08 PM »
Oh yeah the 5.4.3.2.1 thing worked almost always with me. The child might push the limit a couple of times to see what they can do but realize it's a bad idea.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

"The quantity of money becomes to an ever greater degree its sole effective quality. Just as it reduces everything to its abstract form, so it reduces itself in the course of its own movement to quantitative being. Excess and intemperance come to be its true norm."

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2014, 08:07:09 PM »
Oh...there's where I COMPLETELY disagree.   

Ever seen a child throw a violent temper tantrum while their very calm parent stands idly by doing absolutely nothing....because they have NEVER done anything violent before?   I have...   
You seem to suggest that just because CP is not used, that things are completely permissive and passive parenting is favored. I think that is a false premise. I can't be bothered digging up the data right now, but passive parenting has been shown to have as adverse effects as CP in some studies.

I believe that when we are in our immature phase of life, we lash out in violent frustration when we think our feelings aren't coming across.   That is an INHERENTLY VIOLENT REACTION.
I would agree that we are inherently assertive, but not violent. Toddlers are very assertive when trying to have their needs met, but I wouldn't say that is in a violent way. We have to be assertive to even survive as toddlers. Yes, sometimes maybe this assertiveness turns into something more aggressive, but I don't think it's really violent. Maybe we do see eye to eye on this and just have differing terminology.

But either way, even if we are inherently violent and I am wrong on this, I'm going to agree with Jaffa on this:
I think what I was trying to say is that is why we teach them not to be that way. We are inherently violent, so our parents teach us the wrongness of violence early on.
If the goal is to teach kids not to be violent, I don’t see how being violent toward them is supposed to accomplish that.

Offline Lucien

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Re: Brony bullied at school, school sides with bullies
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2014, 08:59:08 PM »
Again, that comes down to one's own definition of violence. By my standards my parents were never violent to me at all. A spanking that is uncomfortable but not really painful isn't really violence to me, just an "actions speak louder than words" way of saying "you're doing something very wrong, stop."

By some people's standards, anger in general is violence. I wouldn't agree :dunno:
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

"The quantity of money becomes to an ever greater degree its sole effective quality. Just as it reduces everything to its abstract form, so it reduces itself in the course of its own movement to quantitative being. Excess and intemperance come to be its true norm."