Fricking crashing airplanes

[rumborak]

EB, I too am glad that it was a German. That keeps the followup on a rational level, not a "he was a Muslim, Turk, whatever".

But yeah, 28 years old, that's the time where you still have shit ideas that you haven't figured out yet. Maybe not the right age to be in charge of 170 people.


What's still mysterious is why they didn't follow the "2 person in cockpit" rule. Is it not enforced in Europe?
EDIT: Not a rule in Lufthansa flights apparently. You can bet they will instate that now.

[rumborak]

Jesus Christ, CNN has reached absolute rock bottom.

[El Barto]

Almost all network coverage of air disasters is awful. They bring in so-called experts who understand the industry but know little about the specifics of what happens. It does seem that Greg Feith and his butt-ugly ties are a regular analyst for NBC/MSNBC and he's pretty much The Man with regards to these. Unless the person talking is a former NTSB investigator it's best to just ignore them.

As for the two men in the cockpit rule, when it was brought up at PPRuNe half of the pilots said "that's ridiculous! Who let's FA's into the flight deck?" The other half said "yeah, that's our policy." Strictly a company decision. Although, like I mentioned earlier, I suspect that will become mandatory after this. At least up to the point that a pissed off male stewardess decides to axe the copilot and crash the plain himself. I don't know what they'll do after that. Air marshals in every cockpit, maybe?

[rumborak]

Lufthansa already said apparently they have no intention of instating the 2-person rule. But, that might have been an older response to a previous call for it.

In the end, the reality is, it *is* a freak occurrence. Just as with everything in life, you can try to protect yourself to the best of your abilities, but it hard to counteract human ingenuity in circumventing the safety guards.

[reneranucci]

Air marshals in every cockpit, maybe?

You and I both live in Dallas so we know the only reasonable measure is to give guns to all passengers.

[rumborak]

Actually, they should go straight ahead and keep everyone in a Mexican standoff during the whole flight. 170 guns, all pointing in various directions.

[El Barto]

In the end, the reality is, it *is* a freak occurrence. Just as with everything in life, you can try to protect yourself to the best of your abilities, but it hard to counteract human ingenuity in circumventing the safety guards.

You and I both live in Dallas so we know the only reasonable measure is to give guns to all passengers.

In a bizarre convergence you're both completely correct. In most places this is just a freak occurrence, but in America we don't tolerate those things. We deserve better than that, so God dammit, implement a solution to random acts of chance! Even more bizarre, it's entirely possible that had this happened over here, the FO could have used his lawfully stowed handgun to clip the captain and not had to worry about locking the door and all that hassle. Another response to freak occurrences.

I do love the Mexican standoff idea, though. Awesome.

[Big Hath]

Actually, they should go straight ahead and keep everyone in a Mexican standoff during the whole flight. 170 guns, all pointing in various directions.

makes takeoff, landings, and turbulence all the more exciting!

[rumborak]

The good news is, apparently the passengers were unaware of anything up to the last moment. Screams were only heard at the very end.

[cramx3]

The good news is, apparently the passengers were unaware of anything up to the last moment. Screams were only heard at the very end.

Judging by the way I fly (sleeping pill and knocked out) I probably wouldn't of even noticed my death in that case.  Thats good for the victims and hopefully gives their familiy's a very slightly piece of mind that it wasn't a painful death.

[rumborak]

I can also totally see that when you are flying over the Alps, you might think the close mountains are intended. So, only at the very last moment where they are *really* close to the mountain will people notice something is wrong.

Man, what an asshole though. Why can't he just take sleeping pills in his hotel room? What a pathetic loser.

Looks also that the major European airlines are now instating the 2-person rule.

[cramx3]

Yea seriously, if its just suicide, keep it to yourself.  Im not sure what one gains out of doing something like that.  At least the extremists say they do it for God so one can say they had a reason in their mind to kill innocents.

[El Barto]

Judging from past indicators it might well be that the guy was pissed off at his employer. The Egyptian guy in 19999 had been reprimanded and lost access to the lucrative American routes. There was an incident in Cali many years ago where a non-pilot employee was fired for something quite mundane and trivial and decided to crash the airliner he (as well as the airline's owner) was on at the time. He shot the owner in his first class seat and then the pilots. He was hoping that it'd go unresolved and reflect so poorly on the airline that it'd force them under. That was a landmark case in crash investigations which actually spoiled his schemes. And then there's ole Aubry that I mentioned a few posts up that wanted to crash the plane into FedEX corporate.

I know it was mentioned that there's some disgruntlement going on with European carriers at the moment. Before the details of this even were known he through that out there half jokingly and, well, here we are. I think it might have had something to do with benefits.

Of course it's more likely that the dude was just a dick.


edit: Now that I think about it, I think the whole reason Aubry Calloway was sacked in the first place was that everybody at FedEX thought he was exactly the sort of asshole that might do something like that. I think in Star Trek that would be some sort of predestination paradox or some shit. 

[rumborak]

Now of course every random person who remotely knew the copilot comes out with a "I knew it all along" story.

[Calvin6s]

Almost all network coverage of air disasters is awful.

50% of why I really don't comment in this thread.  The other 50% is I really don't have enough interest in the airline/avionics industry to feel I have anything real to add.  Not really a fan of fake experts, be it on air or online.

As for the two men in the cockpit rule

Just repeating what I heard; a flight attendant is supposed to go in there when it is down to one in the cockpit.  Now if one of those kills the other so they could jihad and/or suicide ... there is supposed to be an override that the other pilot has to get back in that takes a code and a knowledge of timing to enter that code.  Of course, that isn't global protocol as it didn't happen here.

But my problem is they just gave away that game plan by announcing it needlessly.  If they lock the door to keep terrorists out, and have an override to let pilots back in ... now a terrorist knows they just need to start killing one passenger at a time until that pilot breaks and gives up the code.  The pilot will realize that giving up the code just means death anyway?  Well, go place yourself in that situation and tell me how well you respond logically under extreme pressure.

I hate airline crash coverage because I more or less abandon the news during the first week so I don't give myself a migraine.  Then I miss the "other" stories.

[Dublagent66]

What Malaysian airplane?  Oooohhh that one.  I almost forgot.

[Calvin6s]

Yeah.  When you are a loser with people telling you to "kill yourself" and you decide to take that suggestion, then take it literally.  Kill just yourself.

[rumborak]

As a systems engineer myself, the true fault was indeed the lack of 2-person protocol. Simply from the fact that airplane design relies on redundancy, just like any other system that is supposed to be reliable. A single point of failure is the Achilles heel of any system; trusting your pilots is admirable, but from a reliability point of view you have to treat them like a faulty component.

[El Barto]

Now of course every random person who remotely knew the copilot comes out with a "I knew it all along" story.

Really? Was he crazy or just a dick? Normally everybody that knows one of these guys seem completely taken by surprise. "He was a quiet guy. Good neighbor. Kept to himself, mostly."

[El Barto]

But my problem is they just gave away that game plan by announcing it needlessly.  If they lock the door to keep terrorists out, and have an override to let pilots back in ... now a terrorist knows they just need to start killing one passenger at a time until that pilot breaks and gives up the code.  The pilot will realize that giving up the code just means death anyway?  Well, go place yourself in that situation and tell me how well you respond logically under extreme pressure.

Dude, that's a simple one. Land the plane as scheduled with a cabin full of bled out corpses and one or more living terrorists. Let Johnny deal with it from there. It's unfortunate but you buys your ticket and you takes your ride. And after the horrible events of 14 years ago (typing that always makes me chuckle) every pilot in the industry knows this and is trained for it, as well,

As for giving out information they've done no such thing. This isn't knowledge that'll help any would be hijackers and even if it were, it's readily available to pretty much anybody. Hell, I posted the workings of the system a page back. What you don't want to give out is the secret knock, or the specific key code, or the location of the emergency entrance breaching shotgun. Add to that, the PAX have a better chance of handling the situation than you do. I'd put a cabin full of doomed passengers against a couple of armed terrorists any day. The former have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[KevShmev]

EB, I too am glad that it was a German. That keeps the followup on a rational level, not a "he was a Muslim, Turk, whatever".

 

Not to turn this into a P/R thing, but are you suggesting that it is irrational to react a certain way if yet another Muslim goes on a suicide mission and kills a lot of people?

[El Barto]

EB, I too am glad that it was a German. That keeps the followup on a rational level, not a "he was a Muslim, Turk, whatever".

 

Not to turn this into a P/R thing, but are you suggesting that it is irrational to react a certain way if yet another Muslim goes on a suicide mission and kills a lot of people?

No. I'm saying that people will behave irrationally if it were to happen. Huge difference.

[cramx3]

Now of course every random person who remotely knew the copilot comes out with a "I knew it all along" story.

Really? Was he crazy or just a dick? Normally everybody that knows one of these guys seem completely taken by surprise. "He was a quiet guy. Good neighbor. Kept to himself, mostly."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeo_Ypmba70

George Carlin, classic and pretty much your quote. 

[Dublagent66]

Yeah, definitely classic. 

[rumborak]

EB, I too am glad that it was a German. That keeps the followup on a rational level, not a "he was a Muslim, Turk, whatever".

 

Not to turn this into a P/R thing, but are you suggesting that it is irrational to react a certain way if yet another Muslim goes on a suicide mission and kills a lot of people?

My stance is, if I could choose between a German committing suicide and a Muslim doing it for Allah, I'd choose the German. A because it makes it an "in-house problem" for Germany, and B because the world doesn't need even more animosity between groups.

[El Barto]

Now of course every random person who remotely knew the copilot comes out with a "I knew it all along" story.

Really? Was he crazy or just a dick? Normally everybody that knows one of these guys seem completely taken by surprise. "He was a quiet guy. Good neighbor. Kept to himself, mostly."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeo_Ypmba70

George Carlin, classic and pretty much your quote. 

Ya know, I actually deleted the fourth line I had in there which would have made it more Carlinesque than Carlin himself. Whilst humorous, I decided it was too crass given the subject matter at hand.

[Stadler]

Yeah.  When you are a loser with people telling you to "kill yourself" and you decide to take that suggestion, then take it literally.  Kill just yourself.

Um, not that I'm some sort of social worker, but the two people I know personally that decided to end their lives were anything but losers.  They had issues they didn't know how to deal with, and their wiring was such that they defaulted to that option (instead of drugs, or alcohol, or any number of other ways humans mask issues) but they were anything but "losers".

[KevShmev]

EB, I too am glad that it was a German. That keeps the followup on a rational level, not a "he was a Muslim, Turk, whatever".

 

Not to turn this into a P/R thing, but are you suggesting that it is irrational to react a certain way if yet another Muslim goes on a suicide mission and kills a lot of people?

No. I'm saying that people will behave irrationally if it were to happen. Huge difference.

Okay. That's fair.

EB, I too am glad that it was a German. That keeps the followup on a rational level, not a "he was a Muslim, Turk, whatever".

 

Not to turn this into a P/R thing, but are you suggesting that it is irrational to react a certain way if yet another Muslim goes on a suicide mission and kills a lot of people?

My stance is, if I could choose between a German committing suicide and a Muslim doing it for Allah, I'd choose the German. A because it makes it an "in-house problem" for Germany, and B because the world doesn't need even more animosity between groups.

That might be true, but I think things are getting worse either way, sadly.

Yeah.  When you are a loser with people telling you to "kill yourself" and you decide to take that suggestion, then take it literally.  Kill just yourself.

Um, not that I'm some sort of social worker, but the two people I know personally that decided to end their lives were anything but losers.  They had issues they didn't know how to deal with, and their wiring was such that they defaulted to that option (instead of drugs, or alcohol, or any number of other ways humans mask issues) but they were anything but "losers".

Agreed.  I used to have "people who kill others too instead of just killing themselves are assholes" stance, but over time, my thoughts have changed.  Most people who are so foregone that they are even considering suicide, much less attempting it with real intent to end their lives, are not thinking straight or rationally.  It's never black and white.

[rumborak]

It is never black and white, of course. But I can mount zero sympathy for a person who just as easily could have offed himself with a few pills in the hotel room the night before, Instead, he takes down 170 people with him. That's just plain murder (and a convenient one at that, since you don't have to stand trial for it).

[cramx3]

It is never black and white, of course. But I can mount zero sympathy for a person who just as easily could have offed himself with a few pills in the hotel room the night before, Instead, he takes down 170 people with him. That's just plain murder (and a convenient one at that, since you don't have to stand trial for it).

Thats how I feel.  People who commit suicide arent necessarily "losers" theres many reasons and problems that lead to that, but going from suicide to mass murderer is something else.

[El Barto]

Agreed.  I used to have "people who kill others too instead of just killing themselves are assholes" stance, but over time, my thoughts have changed.  Most people who are so foregone that they are even considering suicide, much less attempting it with real intent to end their lives, are not thinking straight or rationally.  It's never black and white.

Coincidentally I read a bit about famed clock tower enthusiast Charles Whitman this morning. Here's some loser who murders his wife and mom and then shoots enough strangers to give Sergeant Hartman wood before finally shooting it out with cops and a couple of armed civvies (fuck yeah, Texas!). Real easy to think terribly of this guy. Turns out that he sought help for delusions and paranoia and found none. In his very thoughtful suicide note he implores the coroner to find out why he lost his mind. Turns out he had a 1" tumor mashing up against his amygdala. That would be enough to turn Gandhi into a bloodthirsty psychopath. His actions were absolutely the fault of a physiological flaw that he didn't want and couldn't understand, the remorse he expressed and the importance he placed on being understood in his suicide note make that pretty clear, yet he's still thought of as a real asshole for his actions. I have no idea what the motivations of the German pilot were, it's entirely possible that he was an asshole/loser (which I've flippantly called him myself). It's also perfectly likely that the dude was really fucked up. You mentioned in your post that things seem to be getting worse. I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know that we certainly haven't gotten any better at distinguishing between those two possibilities.

edit: looks like this post is equally applicable to the last two replies.

[Calvin6s]

they were anything but "losers".

So they wouldn't apply then, right?  But if you are somebody that decides the best way to commit suicide is to take as many people with you, then you are a loser.  And add the square sign to the loser if the people you kill in your suicide have absolutely nothing to do with what drove you to suicide.

I think you missed the qualifying factor here.  You don't have to get me started on the people that actually say "kill yourself".  I'm not one of those people.  I'm usually the first person to break when there is a gang up on somebody (as is common in forums) that say "hey, that's a bit far.  We should back off."  It is kind of like what El Barto brought up earlier.  The FedEx guy (I think it was him) went over the edge possibly because he was told he was one of those people that might go over the edge.

But I don't think it is all that controversial to call people that turn their suicide into a needless mass murder a loser after the fact.

[Calvin6s]

My stance is, if I could choose between a German committing suicide and a Muslim doing it for Allah, I'd choose the German. A because it makes it an "in-house problem" for Germany, and B because the world doesn't need even more animosity between groups.

My stance is just to give us the facts as they are.  If it's a Muslim Jihadi (which by the way, can also be a German), then that's what it is.  It is worse to try and "shape" the story because we worry about hurting the feelings of a group.

[rumborak]

To make matters even worse, the guy could have called in sick on that day, he had a doctor's note. Looks like he planned this ahead, he tore apart the doctor's note in his apartment.

[Stadler]

It is never black and white, of course. But I can mount zero sympathy for a person who just as easily could have offed himself with a few pills in the hotel room the night before, Instead, he takes down 170 people with him. That's just plain murder (and a convenient one at that, since you don't have to stand trial for it).

Look, this is going to come off more argumentative than it really is, but stop looking at this through your own lenses.   I'm not defending this guy, or saying what he did was acceptable or right.  Conceptually, I am with you; suicide is a personal act. This isn't "suicide", this is mass murder, and oh, by the way, the perpetrator went too, and you'll notice that no one is defending Adam Lanza as a "suicide". 

But the point I'm trying to make is that if someone has lost the "regard" for their own life, and knowing that all the data shows that despite suicides being incredibly painful and traumatic for the survivors, suicides themselves believe they are making the lives of those around them better, how can you expect them to keep the sanctity of some life in the back end of the plane that they have never even seen let alone experienced?    In other words, to respect other lives, you have to respect your own first, and that is the one thing that successful suicides are lacking as compared to those that don't.