Author Topic: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?  (Read 11882 times)

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Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2014, 04:47:32 PM »


He is making very insulting generalizations about smokers.  My own life, and what I do all day every day, proves he is not stating facts, that not all smokers are underachievers.


Tempus cited research in one of his posts, which nicely makes generalizations basically all the time. I think maybe he should have put "most, majority, a lot of" and so on. I think most people know all smokers aren't underachievers, much like not all smokers will develop cancer, obese people will develop diabetes, opium users developing deadly tolerances and so on. But the research is bountiful that says you are much or more likely, or -- times likely to develop X, Y and Z. Sure, it's not a silver bullet, but to deny that people are impacted by its influence, and a lot of traditional workers not creating as much product is missing the mark.


Quote
However, I do have a comparision for when I didn't smoke vs. now.  I quit smoking, and didn't smoke for the first year of my film career, and then after Adult Swim didn't purchase the show I had developed for them I started smoking again because that shit was stressful.  It's never effected my productivity.  In fact, I work more now than I did when I wasn't smoking.


Sounds like that rejection was hard for you. I can see why you wanted to work harder. Clearly the smoking is a coping mechanism.

It's interesting, right after they passed onmy show, I was crushed and viewed it as a failure.  But, the experience, and content guidance from the development director still shaped my career and challenges me to be original every day.  For some reason, right after they passed I was talking with Charlie Dominici a lot. Talking with him helped me understand that I wasn't alone in my artistic struggles.  Even though we had a falling out over a feature film project we were working on togerther, I still appreciate his advice, and wisdom, and support he showed me through that time.  Considering what he gets paid for being a former member of Dream Theater, and the shit he has taken, he's a good sport about things.  I can respect that.

On the research, in terms of the anti-smoking and smoking lobbies both have produced enough studies for use to quote meaningless, biased, research all day.  Whe you start dropping studies, because of all the misinformation, they have no value unless they have been by truly autonomous organizations with no agenda.  you have to look at reality and see what it really true. 

Offline rumborak

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2014, 04:50:28 PM »
Pretty sure that once you disregard CDC and NIH studies (and by extension, all public agencies worldwide, who are all agreeing), all you have left are studies made by cigarette companies.
I'm not even sure what is being argued here. Subjecting a body regularly to a substance that causes myriad health problems and eventually cancer, won't affect its functioning in the medium term at all? That's a peculiar argument, to say the least.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2014, 06:05:57 PM »
And just because product X reduced Y by 50% in a population, that doesn't mean everyone who uses X will be reduced by 50%. Some will reduce by 75%, some by 25%, some by 0%, and hell, some might even increase. The issue, ministry, is that you're taking a personal (and as such almost inherently biased) experience, and putting it up against studies done by professionals in the field held up to strict standards. Many of these studies from independent sources. And I would say your personal bias is quite easily deciding what studies to believe and what not to.

And realize this is coming from someone who is on the same side of the argument as you. And realize it's a common thing to do. I'm sure I've done it, and Tempus I'm pretty sure doesn't "buy in" to global warming, and so I'd say he does the same.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2014, 06:21:28 PM »
As a former smoker myself, I definitely also am familiar with rationalizations of why I personally should not be harmed by it.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2014, 06:23:59 PM »
And just because product X reduced Y by 50% in a population, that doesn't mean everyone who uses X will be reduced by 50%. Some will reduce by 75%, some by 25%, some by 0%, and hell, some might even increase. The issue, ministry, is that you're taking a personal (and as such almost inherently biased) experience, and putting it up against studies done by professionals in the field held up to strict standards. Many of these studies from independent sources. And I would say your personal bias is quite easily deciding what studies to believe and what not to.
But at the same time Tempus is making generalizations based on the research. He's making assumptions about individuals based on studies that point to trends and averages. Because smokers tend to be less productive doesn't mean that a smoker is less productive. My point is that if you're going to justify a decision based on performance issues, being lazy or stinking, then you should base it on the specific person. Is Smoker A lazy and/or does he stink? Just because he's part of a group that tends to doesn't mean that he is/does.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2014, 06:28:49 PM »
BTW, I actually don't think the performance thing is enough reason for a regular business to shun smokers. I think hospitals are special in their mission,  clientele and requirements on their staff that it makes sense for them.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2014, 06:42:42 PM »
And just because product X reduced Y by 50% in a population, that doesn't mean everyone who uses X will be reduced by 50%. Some will reduce by 75%, some by 25%, some by 0%, and hell, some might even increase. The issue, ministry, is that you're taking a personal (and as such almost inherently biased) experience, and putting it up against studies done by professionals in the field held up to strict standards. Many of these studies from independent sources. And I would say your personal bias is quite easily deciding what studies to believe and what not to.
But at the same time Tempus is making generalizations based on the research. He's making assumptions about individuals based on studies that point to trends and averages. Because smokers tend to be less productive doesn't mean that a smoker is less productive. My point is that if you're going to justify a decision based on performance issues, being lazy or stinking, then you should base it on the specific person. Is Smoker A lazy and/or does he stink? Just because he's part of a group that tends to doesn't mean that he is/does.

Oh, I completely agree. I was just mainly dealing with what I thought were errors in reasoning in Ministries side of things. And like I already said, I think it's morally objectionable to only single out smokers, and you're right, to do so as a group is an issue. Of course some of the things brought up (like healthcare costs), can only be tackled as a group, but past those sorts of things it should be a case by case basis.

And just because product X reduced Y by 50% in a population, that doesn't mean everyone who uses X will be reduced by 50%. Some will reduce by 75%, some by 25%, some by 0%, and hell, some might even increase. The issue, ministry, is that you're taking a personal (and as such almost inherently biased) experience, and putting it up against studies done by professionals in the field held up to strict standards. Many of these studies from independent sources. And I would say your personal bias is quite easily deciding what studies to believe and what not to.

And realize this is coming from someone who is on the same side of the argument as you. And realize it's a common thing to do. I'm sure I've done it, and Tempus I'm pretty sure doesn't "buy in" to global warming, and so I'd say he does the same.


Again, I joined this forum to have fun, and meeting other Dream Theater fans and share these awesome pieces of film that I have.  You can debate this subject all you want.  Leave me out of it.  Please. 

I will going forward only discuss the points already brought up in this thread, and only in this thread. Actually, I will go further and say I personally will not discuss your case any further, but as you've already put it out there please don't be offended if others continue to discuss your points. As for what you came here to do, tons of threads out there to do it, enjoy!

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Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2014, 07:24:36 PM »
Quote
I will going forward only discuss the points already brought up in this thread, and only in this thread. Actually, I will go further and say I personally will not discuss your case any further, but as you've already put it out there please don't be offended if others continue to discuss your points. As for what you came here to do, tons of threads out there to do it, enjoy!

I'm not offended by politcal discussion.  The insults, however, are entirely unecessary. I am not lazy.  That being said, I am, in fact, having a great time here, and I thank you guys for having me!   :smiley:
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 08:05:02 PM by MinistryOfLostSouls »

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #78 on: March 09, 2014, 07:34:24 PM »
I'm not sure how it could be legal to refuse someone a job because they smoke.  There must be some law against that.  I don't care what kind of institution it is. What someone does outside the job and in their personal life, as long as it is in the confines of the law, should have no relevancy in the hiring process.

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2014, 07:38:42 PM »
I'm not sure how it could be legal to refuse someone a job because they smoke.  There must be some law against that.  I don't care what kind of institution it is. What someone does outside the job and in their personal life, as long as it is in the confines of the law, should have no relevancy in the hiring process.

As is so often the case, what you do in your personal life often overlaps with your job much more than most people realize. With health care costs as one example, smells another, there are things about smoking that will carry over to public areas of your life, even if you only do them in private.

And there are already places that do this, so if there are laws possibly against it, smokers obviously haven't won over their case in court yet.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2014, 08:00:56 PM »
I'm not sure how it could be legal to refuse someone a job because they smoke.  There must be some law against that.  I don't care what kind of institution it is. What someone does outside the job and in their personal life, as long as it is in the confines of the law, should have no relevancy in the hiring process.

"Outside the job" is questionable. Every cigarette smoker I've worked with goes outside to smoke at least a half dozen times during an 8 hour day.

Offline rumborak

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2014, 08:01:01 PM »
Yeah, even with e-cigs, you still got a throng of people standing in front of the main entrance of a hospital, sucking on something that still looks like a cigarette.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2014, 08:07:19 PM »
I'm not sure how it could be legal to refuse someone a job because they smoke.  There must be some law against that.  I don't care what kind of institution it is. What someone does outside the job and in their personal life, as long as it is in the confines of the law, should have no relevancy in the hiring process.

As is so often the case, what you do in your personal life often overlaps with your job much more than most people realize. With health care costs as one example, smells another, there are things about smoking that will carry over to public areas of your life, even if you only do them in private.

And there are already places that do this, so if there are laws possibly against it, smokers obviously haven't won over their case in court yet.

I am not a fan of the smell of cigarettes myself.  However, I wouldn't dismiss a person because of it and I find it discriminatory to do so.  Actually what irritates me more is when someone wears too much perfume or cologne in a working environment.  People actually have severe allergies to that.  However, have you ever heard of someone not getting hired because they wear cologne or perfume?  I'm sure it has happened before but again, it's not right.

I get that personal and work life overlap. However, I don't find that a justifiable reason to refuse someone a job.  I think the problem is everyone wants the law to cater to their own personal needs.  Some kid chokes on a piece of candy and the next thing you know, the company is forced to put warning labels on the candy.  Cases like this are become more and more ubiquitous.  Whatever happened to people doing what it's their right to do and everyone else minding their own business?  Forcing one's will upon another is fascist.

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2014, 08:54:33 PM »
I think the problem is everyone wants the law to cater to their own personal needs.
Hear, hear.

Now, to address your earlier point, as TV stated being a smoker is not a protected class. Those would be your homos, your Bible thumpers, your non-white people or your cripples. Most other people are on their own. That wouldn't necessarily stop them from filing suit, but I doubt they'd get too far. Sadly*, what the hospital is doing is likely quite legal.


*This whole thing is baffling to me as I can't quite put my finger on where I stand. I was fundamentally against this until DTVT accidentally pointed out that I'm completely in favor of it. Simply put, I think private companies or institutions should be able to hire or fire anybody they damn well chose, and yes that includes the aforementioned protected classes. If I want to run my 7-11 like Menudo and hire only hot 17-19 year olds (girls in this case) then that should be my right. The market will force me to change my ways and such is the order of things. I therefore have to support the hospital's right to do this. That said, I think they're acting like pompous, self-righteous assholes with their decision in this matter.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #84 on: March 09, 2014, 08:59:33 PM »
At least we can disagree in this topic in a respectful manner.   :lol    I definitely agree with your last sentence. 

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #85 on: March 09, 2014, 09:02:06 PM »
Everybody needs to chill the fuck out. Jesus.  :lol  I never singled anybody out, nor did I personally call anyone lazy. What I did say was "smokers", meaning by and large the group known as "smokers", are less productive for a number of factors overall. I didn't do the research. But there are countless studies that have been done to support this. I'm sure Ministry is the hardest working guy in town. But I wasn't talking about Ministry. I was talking about "smokers" in the general sense. Now if Ministry, or anyone else doesn't like being labeled with the majority of "smokers' who have proven to be less productive...then don't smoke. There are exceptions all the time. Wow!
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #86 on: March 09, 2014, 09:06:11 PM »
I think the problem is everyone wants the law to cater to their own personal needs.

For example, smokers thinking that it shouldn't be legal to refuse to hire them based on their smoking. 
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #87 on: March 09, 2014, 09:23:00 PM »
I think the problem is everyone wants the law to cater to their own personal needs.

For example, smokers thinking that it shouldn't be legal to refuse to hire them based on their smoking.

 :lol  You have everything all bass ackwards.  You think it should be alright to segregate based on something that is completely legal to do?  Refusing to hire someone because they have a criminal past is something I could easily more understand - of course that is depending on the crime.  However, extending that to a legal activity is ludicrous. 

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #88 on: March 09, 2014, 09:24:38 PM »
Bart, just let me know when and where you open your 7-11.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #89 on: March 09, 2014, 09:40:28 PM »
You think it should be alright to segregate based on something that is completely legal to do? 

To me, this is not a matter of segregation at all.  This is a matter of picking people who will fit the job.  In the case of a hospital, people whose habits might make patients sick do not fit the job.  There's a reason hospitals are supposed to be sterile and sanitary. 
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2014, 09:48:11 PM »
You think it should be alright to segregate based on something that is completely legal to do? 

To me, this is not a matter of segregation at all.  This is a matter of picking people who will fit the job.  In the case of a hospital, people whose habits might make patients sick do not fit the job.  There's a reason hospitals are supposed to be sterile and sanitary.
OK, this is fine and dandy. Here's the problem though, and this is also a response to Tempus. If you're going to use that as a basis for hiring/firing, I can't consider it fair to do so based on averages or trends. You have to approach this on case by case basis or else you're just jerking off. How do you know that Smoker A is more of a risk to patients than Ms. Subway Rider B or Mr. Moonlighting As A Sewer Worker C? It's not that I'm opposed to them not hiring smokers for any number of reasons, but I think those reasons should exist, rather than being more likely because they smoke. Like I said before, "you fucking stink!" is a perfectly valid reason to fire somebody in my book. "You smoke so you might stink someday" is not.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #91 on: March 09, 2014, 09:50:01 PM »
You think it should be alright to segregate based on something that is completely legal to do? 

To me, this is not a matter of segregation at all.  This is a matter of picking people who will fit the job.  In the case of a hospital, people whose habits might make patients sick do not fit the job.  There's a reason hospitals are supposed to be sterile and sanitary.

That is such a short-sighted excuse.    Someone smelling smoke on a person's clothes is not going to make them sick.   :lol

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #92 on: March 09, 2014, 09:54:42 PM »
You think it should be alright to segregate based on something that is completely legal to do? 

To me, this is not a matter of segregation at all.  This is a matter of picking people who will fit the job.  In the case of a hospital, people whose habits might make patients sick do not fit the job.  There's a reason hospitals are supposed to be sterile and sanitary.

That is such a short-sighted excuse.    Someone smelling smoke on a person's clothes is not going to make them sick.   :lol
To be fair there's already been one example cited here, and since I nearly hurled all over a Krogers because of some twat's Jerry-curl, I certainly wouldn't be one to argue with him. I also pointed out (and will save you from having to make your next post) that the world doesn't revolve around her or me and our aversions to sickening smells.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #93 on: March 09, 2014, 10:01:33 PM »
You think it should be alright to segregate based on something that is completely legal to do? 

To me, this is not a matter of segregation at all.  This is a matter of picking people who will fit the job.  In the case of a hospital, people whose habits might make patients sick do not fit the job.  There's a reason hospitals are supposed to be sterile and sanitary.

That is such a short-sighted excuse.    Someone smelling smoke on a person's clothes is not going to make them sick.   :lol
To be fair there's already been one example cited here, and since I nearly hurled all over a Krogers because of some twat's Jerry-curl, I certainly wouldn't be one to argue with him. I also pointed out (and will save you from having to make your next post) that the world doesn't revolve around her or me and our aversions to sickening smells.

Exactly.  I think this country has turned into more about "me, me, me" than what better serves the country as a whole.  No one looks at the bigger picture anymore. 

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #94 on: March 09, 2014, 10:17:24 PM »
OK, this is fine and dandy. Here's the problem though, and this is also a response to Tempus. If you're going to use that as a basis for hiring/firing, I can't consider it fair to do so based on averages or trends. You have to approach this on case by case basis or else you're just jerking off. How do you know that Smoker A is more of a risk to patients than Ms. Subway Rider B or Mr. Moonlighting As A Sewer Worker C? It's not that I'm opposed to them not hiring smokers for any number of reasons, but I think those reasons should exist, rather than being more likely because they smoke. Like I said before, "you fucking stink!" is a perfectly valid reason to fire somebody in my book. "You smoke so you might stink someday" is not.

Fair point.  I would argue that with something like this, though, preventative measures are worth considering.  True, you could just make it a hospital policy that nobody is allowed to smell like cigarette smoke, but again, I'm not sure how you enforce something like that.  Not everyone is equally sensitive to the smell, so an employee could come in stinking of it and people might not even notice until there was an incident. 

Though, again, for the record, I'm not necessarily sure about this policy.  My main goal here was to express that smoking can affect other people in a way that something like obesity really can't, so it makes sense to me to treat smoking differently than obesity. 

Someone smelling smoke on a person's clothes is not going to make them sick.   :lol

This simply isn't true.  It may be rare, but it does happen.  If you want to dismiss those rare cases as irrelevant aberrations, fair enough, but I take exception to the notion that they just don't happen at all.  In addition to the example of my mom, multiple people in this thread have talked about feeling nauseous when smelling smoke on their old clothes after quitting. 
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #95 on: March 09, 2014, 10:38:10 PM »
Someone smelling smoke on a person's clothes is not going to make them sick.   :lol

This simply isn't true.  It may be rare, but it does happen.  If you want to dismiss those rare cases as irrelevant aberrations, fair enough, but I take exception to the notion that they just don't happen at all.  In addition to the example of my mom, multiple people in this thread have talked about feeling nauseous when smelling smoke on their old clothes after quitting.

I get extremely nauseous when I smell eggs cooking.  Should I stop the people in my household from eating them?  It also bothers me when my wife and step-daughter overdo it with perfume.   There are some things people just have to learn to deal with instead of making everyone else around them change. 

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #96 on: March 09, 2014, 10:47:07 PM »
I get extremely nauseous when I smell eggs cooking.  Should I stop the people in my household from eating them? 

That depends.  Do they constantly smell like eggs being cooked?  If so, I'd say you'd have every right to not let them in your house. 
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #97 on: March 09, 2014, 10:50:17 PM »
Well, I'd say that this has certainly moved into P/R territory, and things are getting rather heated. So this is going to get moved, people will take some time, and then we can continue the discussion. And I ask everyone please watch their language and keep things respectful.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #98 on: March 11, 2014, 07:24:55 AM »
The way I see it is;

A: So should they not hire athletes because they may smell of BO?
B: Someone smelling of smoke doesn't mean they smoke so should they say anyone who knows anyone who smokes shouldn't be hired.
C: People don't like tuna so anyone who likes it can't work here.

This shouldn't be legal, all this talk of equality and diversity everywhere we look, but some only see what they want to see.

Offline Chino

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #99 on: March 11, 2014, 07:59:02 AM »
I figured this was more about the future healthcare costs of the employer.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #100 on: March 11, 2014, 08:15:44 AM »
The way I see it is;

A: So should they not hire athletes because they may smell of BO?
B: Someone smelling of smoke doesn't mean they smoke so should they say anyone who knows anyone who smokes shouldn't be hired.
C: People don't like tuna so anyone who likes it can't work here.
 

With all due respect, those are three really poor examples.

Online El Barto

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #101 on: March 11, 2014, 08:21:27 AM »
I figured this was more about the future healthcare costs of the employer.
And to that end I don't see why they don't just attach a smoker surcharge to smoking employees. That could cover healthcare costs and give smokers yet another encouragement to quit on their own.

Furthermore, I'm still troubled by the e-cig aspect of this. A whole lot of people are using those as a stepping stone to quite smoking, and I think we should all see this as a good thing.
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #102 on: March 11, 2014, 08:24:10 AM »
Buuuuuuut water vapor with a possible after hint of fruit or something sweet is just unbeeeeeeeearable.

I agree with everything in your post Barto. I find it incredibly ridiculous that people who are using e-digs are treated just as bad, when they're comparably light years better(barring possible negative health effects since enough studies haven't really been done yet)

Offline Chino

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #103 on: March 11, 2014, 08:39:26 AM »
An e-cig helped me stop smoking. I originally started using it to save money/be able to smoke anywhere I wanted. Sort of a funny story about that. I used the e-cig for about 6 months. It got to the point where I believed I had gotten addicted to it. There were days where I'd bet I took 500+ drags. I'd sit in my cubicle with the thing in my hand all day. I smoked it in the car, while watching tv, when I was outside, on the shitter, literally everywhere. One day I accidentally put it through the wash, and it was no more. I chose not to buy a new one and was surprisingly not bothered by it at all. There was the awkwardness of not having the thing in my hand for a day or two, but I never felt the urge to go out and buy another. That's something I can't say about cigarettes. I've been without my e-cig now for about four months. So far in 2014, I've only bought one pack of smokes, and it was for a heavy night of drinking at the casino. Part of me thinks the e-cig should be being encouraged rather than frowned upon.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 09:04:30 AM by Chino »

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #104 on: March 11, 2014, 09:02:50 AM »
The way I see it is;

A: So should they not hire athletes because they may smell of BO?
B: Someone smelling of smoke doesn't mean they smoke so should they say anyone who knows anyone who smokes shouldn't be hired.
C: People don't like tuna so anyone who likes it can't work here.
 

A + C maybe, but how is B a poor example? people who live with smokers will sometimes smell of smoke, and that seems to be a big issue here...
With all due respect, those are three really poor examples.