Author Topic: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?  (Read 11780 times)

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Offline wolfking

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2014, 05:06:30 AM »
From March 1st forward an applicant would have to take a drug test and if any trace of nicotine was found in their system, their application would be rejected, and even if hired they would be subject to random drug testing in the future, which if nicotine was found in their system they would be terminated.

I have absolutely no problem with this at all.  In fact, I wish this sort of thing happened everywhere.

Offline Modah

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2014, 05:21:52 AM »
I don't smoke anything anymore... I don't drink anymore... I don't do any sort of drugs anymore...

...but does anyone else think we're gradually moving toward a society where every aspect of everyone's lives is being micromanaged and controlled?

If so, is anyone else generally OK with that? Maybe the government and big business know better than we do. *shrug* This is the kind of thing that would have once been considered extremely intrusive, but now everyone's just like "Please don't fire me. Please give me my paycheck."

Is that because, in general, the world seems to be getting better and better? We have smartphones, guys can marry guys, women can marry women, religion is playing less and less of a role in day-to-day life, Linux Mint exists, McDonald's probably has a veggie burger (I wouldn't know though)... so things seem pretty good. The fleeting glimpses that many of us "milennials" have had of more primitive lives over in other countries... whether we went to China, India, Iraq or wherever... make us feel like "Please don't ever put me there again." If we don't smoke, that's a bonus.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 05:29:46 AM by Modah »


Offline KevShmev

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2014, 06:37:09 AM »
BMI is already here. You take a health assessment and your BMI is over a certain threshold, then your employer can tell you you have to participate in a weight loss program of some kind. Your refusal will result in your paying much higher premiums. Its already happening more and more. Your employers renewal on healthcare is based on the companies previous years experience. The carrier is NOT gonna take a loss, so they pass on the renewal. Used to be a long time ago 3-5% on average. Now it's nearly double digits every year. Companies cant afford it. Our healthcare system is FUBAR.

Especially since BMI is total crap, since it is calculated off of just your height and weight.  You could be 5'10", 220 lbs, and totally packed with muscle, but the BMI would say you are overweight.  I get employers wanting health risks to pay higher premiums, but using the BMI is not the way to go.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2014, 08:27:10 AM »
I'd like to share a little story about my mom.  She quit smoking just a couple years ago, after having maintained the habit for about 45 years - she started when she was 12 years old.  Anyway, since quitting, the smell of cigarettes has been literally nauseating for her.  There have actually been times when she's been tempted to start smoking again, not because of any cravings, but simply in the hope that the smell wouldn't bother her as much anymore if she picked the habit back up herself. 

Now, last year, she was in the hospital with a broken leg.  There was no smoking allowed anywhere on the premises, and that rule was pretty strictly enforced.  Still, a nurse came in one morning stinking of cigarettes, and the smell literally made my mom sick.  Of course, when she threw up, the nurse came closer to help, which only made matters worse for my mom.  This incident didn't cause any lasting damage or anything, as my mom was fine once she got another nurse, but here's the kicker: the offending nurse hadn't even been smoking on the premises.  Her shift had just started, and she had smoked in her car on the way to work.

I'd say that's a pretty good example of why cigarette smoking is different than, say, being fat.  No matter how fat a nurse is, that's not going to hurt a patient.  The smell of cigarette smoke legitimately can. 

Granted, my mom was a special case, and not a very common one, I'm sure.  And I'm not necessarily saying I support this hospital's policy of refusing to hire smokers, because it is slippery ground to walk on, and the precedent is a little shady.  I'm just saying, there are reasons to treat smoking a little differently than other health issues like obesity and alcoholism. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2014, 08:36:03 AM »
@Kev: Yes and no. Yes, the correlation factor of BMI is not nearly as good as it should be. But, at the level at which those companies/healthcare providers will set the cutoff over which they require the employee to take action, you would essentially have to be a linebacker, I.e. someone who makes a living out of being fat and fast at the same time, to be treated unjustly.

That said, I'm surprised they would really use BMI. I can't remember the name of it, but there's one that additionally takes waist circumference into account and is orders of magnitude more accurate.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2014, 10:42:37 AM »
I'm concerned about that being a Native American and Tobacco is a real important plant in our way of life.

Also, if people are concerned about smell. The employee could get there early, change clothes, and wash your hands and chew gum. Or bring mints and perfume.

Basically,  how much will you take of your personal freedom being stripped for a paycheck.
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Offline Nick

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2014, 10:49:29 AM »
I hate smoking, but think this is rather ridiculous. While I see what they want to do, until they also refuse to hire heavy drinkers and overweight people they have no moral grounds to stand on. Smoking is easy to go after, and that's the only reason we're seeing this.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2014, 10:57:06 AM »
I hate smoking, but think this is rather ridiculous. While I see what they want to do, until they also refuse to hire heavy drinkers and overweight people they have no moral grounds to stand on. Smoking is easy to go after, and that's the only reason we're seeing this.

Pretty much.

Also, aren't hospital staff usually smokers?

I think its more an issue of respect from the employee to their patients.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2014, 11:27:44 AM »
Also, if people are concerned about smell. The employee could get there early, change clothes, and wash your hands and chew gum. Or bring mints and perfume.

True, but how do you enforce that?  Have someone on staff who is sensitive to the smell of cigarette smoke and pay them to sniff every employee to make sure they're good?
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Online El Barto

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2014, 11:32:23 AM »
Also, if people are concerned about smell. The employee could get there early, change clothes, and wash your hands and chew gum. Or bring mints and perfume.

True, but how do you enforce that?  Have someone on staff who is sensitive to the smell of cigarette smoke and pay them to sniff every employee to make sure they're good?
I gotta be honest. While I'm sympathetic to your mom's situation, and I mean absolutely no disrespect by this, the world doesn't revolve around her. The smell of jerry-curl makes me pretty damned nauseous, and sometimes I'm subjected to it in large doses. I also have issues with cheap perfume, and I've actually quit frequenting a restaurant because one of the waitresses drenched herself in the nasty shit. Honestly, I have a hard time rationalizing how my right to not smell anything offensive trumps somebody else's right to stink.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2014, 11:43:08 AM »
Also, if people are concerned about smell. The employee could get there early, change clothes, and wash your hands and chew gum. Or bring mints and perfume.

True, but how do you enforce that?  Have someone on staff who is sensitive to the smell of cigarette smoke and pay them to sniff every employee to make sure they're good?
I gotta be honest. While I'm sympathetic to your mom's situation, and I mean absolutely no disrespect by this, the world doesn't revolve around her. The smell of jerry-curl makes me pretty damned nauseous, and sometimes I'm subjected to it in large doses. I also have issues with cheap perfume, and I've actually quit frequenting a restaurant because one of the waitresses drenched herself in the nasty shit. Honestly, I have a hard time rationalizing how my right to not smell anything offensive trumps somebody else's right to stink.

Exactly my point.

Its up to the person who's working as a hospital employee to at least be respectful, by covering up their cigarette smell,  at least. Which I'm sure most of them switched to using E-cigs.

Perfume is another story.
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Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2014, 11:49:55 AM »
And we inch closer and closer to the Great Nicotine Riots of 2017.....
I wouldn't be worried. The riots will last only a block or two, then everyone will be out of breath.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2014, 11:51:57 AM »
I also have issues with cheap perfume, and I've actually quit frequenting a restaurant because one of the waitresses drenched herself in the nasty shit.

Perfume is actually a very good example.  I go to an allergy clinic where the staff aren't allowed to wear perfume because some patients will be extra sensitive or allergic.  Same principle as what I'm talking about. 

I know the world doesn't revolve around my mom, but I also know she's not the only one who is sensitive to the smell of cigarette smoke.  Bottom line: isn't it reasonable for a hospital or other medical facility to take measures to prevent their staff from making the patients sicker?
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2014, 11:58:48 AM »
I also have issues with cheap perfume, and I've actually quit frequenting a restaurant because one of the waitresses drenched herself in the nasty shit.

Perfume is actually a very good example.  I go to an allergy clinic where the staff aren't allowed to wear perfume because some patients will be extra sensitive or allergic.  Same principle as what I'm talking about. 

I know the world doesn't revolve around my mom, but I also know she's not the only one who is sensitive to the smell of cigarette smoke.  Bottom line: isn't it reasonable for a hospital or other medical facility to take measures to prevent their staff from making the patients sicker?

Can you ask for a different nurse, or politely tell them not to see you because they reak of cigarettes or whatever smell?
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2014, 11:59:16 AM »
I've gone out to eat at restaurants before where you can tell the server or bartender recently had smoked.  That is so freaking gross. 

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2014, 12:01:29 PM »
Don't really see why that's gross, seeing as they most certainly have to wash their hands like every other worker there frequently.

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2014, 12:05:41 PM »
It's gross because the stench is nauseating and lingers for a long time. Smokers become immune to the smell so they just assume nonsmokers are exaggerating.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2014, 12:06:10 PM »
It's gross because the stench is nauseating and lingers for a long time. Smokers become immune to the smell so they just assume nonsmokers are exaggerating.

All of this!

EDIT:  After I quit, I could not believe the night and day difference in my sense of smell.   I think I found an old jacket of mine several months later and almost vomited....and I used to WEAR IT!
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2014, 12:16:25 PM »
  Smokers become immune to the smell so they just assume nonsmokers are exaggerating.

This is so true.

I went to a bar to play darts and pool with a few friends about a month ago, it being a bar where you could still smoke, and when I walked in, it was like being punched in the face.  The friends I was with who were smokers didn't even notice.  Suffice it to say, I wimped out and only stayed for about a half hour cause the smell was too disgusting.  And when I got home, my clothes, my hair, everything, just reeked of smoke. 

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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2014, 12:24:21 PM »
I actually like the smell of smoke, but I can see why it would bother people.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2014, 12:32:07 PM »
I think it's okay for this to be legal, but personally, I wouldn't refuse to hire someone based nicotine consumption. I can understand not wanting the smell of smoke and all that, but if someone is incredible at hygiene or is on patches or something, I wouldn't hold it against them in hiring them. I wouldn't equate this to refusing to hire overweight people really. Some people are indeed just born fat. It happens. Of course it all depends on to what degree we are talking here.

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2014, 12:34:08 PM »
I actually like the smell of smoke, but I can see why it would bother people.

FRESH smoke can be very pleasant at times.   It depends.   Stale smoke is *always* nasty....and fresh smoke always becomes stale smoke in skin, clothing, walls of homes, furniture...etc...etc...
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2014, 12:35:53 PM »
I've gone out to eat at restaurants before where you can tell the server or bartender recently had smoked.  That is so freaking gross.
That's an interesting example. I know some restaurants around here don't permit smoking on breaks for that reason. That doesn't bother me. If they told their employees they couldn't smoke at all I'd be offended.
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Offline Big Hath

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2014, 12:45:56 PM »
And we inch closer and closer to the Great Nicotine Riots of 2017.....
I wouldn't be worried. The riots will last only a block or two, then everyone will be out of breath.

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Offline TempusVox

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2014, 12:59:00 PM »
I hate smoking, but think this is rather ridiculous. While I see what they want to do, until they also refuse to hire heavy drinkers and overweight people they have no moral grounds to stand on. Smoking is easy to go after, and that's the only reason we're seeing this.


It's not ridiculous at all. First of all, your argument is sort of ridiculous, no offense. Why? Define "heavy drinker". You cant test someone for that. And as for the obese or overweight analogy employers are moving towards more of a wellness component and forcing employees to address their weight issues. Even then, there are legitimate reasons why someone is overweight sometimes. But drinking in moderation isn't an issue. Smoking is. There is NO smoking in moderation. One puff or a carton is bad for you period.

But to give more of a reason for the smoking issue is this, call it Fact One; It has been proven over and over again that smokers are less productive. The empirical evidence that smokers have lower productivity over working years is fairly strong. They are less productive because they miss work more frequently (absenteeism) and because their smoking-related health conditions (shortness of breath, cardiovascular conditions, cancer, COPD, etc, etc) may affect their ability to perform certain kinds of jobs (presenteeism). Even if the company does not pay sick leave, the disruptive effects of more frequent absences in jobs that require teamwork (such as hospital nursing) will probably lead to increased costs to employers. Not to mention, you can see smokers huddled up all over the place at any given time taking their "smoke break'' outside. I once knew a company who fired a smoker for lack of productivity over this. The employee sued, and we had it tossed easily because the employee used the argument that they only went out for a smoke when they took their restroom break. So the employee didn't think it was a "big deal", and they were being denied their restroom break rights (I kid you not). Other employees went only to the restroom, thereby taking much shorter breaks on total than the smoker did. Not to mention it was an at-will state, and smokers (thank God) are NOT a protected class under federal law.  :lol

Fact Two, smokers have higher medical costs. Smokers have higher average health care costs than non-smokers, other things being equal. (They may have higher life insurance costs as well.) Almost all job-related insurance in hospitals and most other places is experience-rated or self-insured. Even if employee premiums for health and life insurance are not adjusted for smoking status, the fact that medical costs will increase for firms or occupations with larger shares of smokers means that there will be offsetting reductions in wages. Companies have less and less to spend on wages as a result.

Consumers and coworkers may prefer non-smokers. In face-to-face interaction with workers, buyers or consumers of health care may have preferences about behaviors or appearance of workers; attributes that buyers regard as negative will depress total compensation and wages, because it will adversely impact the companies sales overall. In contrast, for occupations and industries where consumers see only the final product (a manufactured good, a piloted airplane) there should be no such negative effects. In hospitals especially, this is important because healthcare overall is getting extremely competitive across the country. Insurance companies are forcing their members to become much more savvy about how they spend their healthcare dollars. Imagine the impact on a cancer patient who is being told by their doctor to absolutely refrain from smoking, and they show up and the girl/guy who pushes the poison into their arm reeks of cigarette smoke. I personally would probably feel like, "How can I trust THIS place to save my life, when they can't even get their own employees to stop smoking." People notice these things. It's not just about curing people. Hospital systems recognize they need to lead by example to capture those dollars more and more.

Personally, I think we should ban cigarette smoking. While I'm in favor of medical marijuana, I abhor tobacco use of any kind. I smoked for nearly 21 years. Worst thing I've ever done. I quit on St. Paddys day while waiting in line to see DT at the Riv in Chicago. That was in '02 I believe. I still worry about walking into my doctors office someday and needing a chest x-ray and they tell me I have cancer. I wish someone had kicked my ass when I started smoking. Like rats, or Ebola, there is NO value to smoking (except for the people in tobacco, and treatment of smoking related disease).  And yeah, I know we ex-smokers are the worst anti-smoking advocates most of the time. There is a reason for that.  :lol

EDIT: I'll also add this. I own part of a restaurant, and we don't allow smoking there. We don't allow workers to meander outside and smoke either. In fact, we even have policies about strong odors, or colognes/perfumes. We don't want any strong odor impacting or effecting our guests in any way. Our service should be excellent, but an otherwise neutral experience for our customers. It does make a difference.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 01:04:45 PM by TempusVox »
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Offline rumborak

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2014, 01:02:28 PM »
It's gross because the stench is nauseating and lingers for a long time. Smokers become immune to the smell so they just assume nonsmokers are exaggerating.

All of this!

EDIT:  After I quit, I could not believe the night and day difference in my sense of smell.   I think I found an old jacket of mine several months later and almost vomited....and I used to WEAR IT!

Same here. I used to smoke, and when I quit I didn't tell anyone because I had been trying for quite a while unsuccessfully. Well, the second day in a coworker asked me "did you stop smoking?". Go figure.
And I also remember how after 5 days my sense of smell was rebooting. And yeah, some of my clothes were gross, and I had never noticed.
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2014, 01:07:18 PM »
It's gross because the stench is nauseating and lingers for a long time. Smokers become immune to the smell so they just assume nonsmokers are exaggerating.

All of this!

EDIT:  After I quit, I could not believe the night and day difference in my sense of smell.   I think I found an old jacket of mine several months later and almost vomited....and I used to WEAR IT!

Same here. I used to smoke, and when I quit I didn't tell anyone because I had been trying for quite a while unsuccessfully. Well, the second day in a coworker asked me "did you stop smoking?". Go figure.
And I also remember how after 5 days my sense of smell was rebooting. And yeah, some of my clothes were gross, and I had never noticed.

I quit in March, so late that fall, I put on a coat I hadn't worn since the previous winter. I too almost vomited. It held that cigarette stench that entire time. I HATE the smell of smokers now. Nastiest thing ever. I almost think I'd rather walk through a fart cloud. Almost.  :lol
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2014, 01:18:48 PM »
You literally work 140 out of the 168 hours of the week every week?
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2014, 01:36:06 PM »
I hate smoking, but think this is rather ridiculous. While I see what they want to do, until they also refuse to hire heavy drinkers and overweight people they have no moral grounds to stand on. Smoking is easy to go after, and that's the only reason we're seeing this.

...Fact One; It has been proven over and over again that smokers are less productive. The empirical evidence that smokers have lower productivity over working years is fairly strong...


That's a very generalized statement.  I smoke cigarettes and weed.  My resume, and list of acomplishments, and client list (2013 Prime Time Emmy winners, 2014 Grammy Nominees, legendary comic book artists, journalists, and major record labels and cable networks) speak for themselves.  I work about 20 hours a day, seven days a week, and have been doing so for about four years.  Smoking effects my "ability to produce" exactly zero percent.  I can understand disliking smoking but to lump everyone who smokes into some under achiever catagory is vasty judgemental, and not entirely accurate.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1747570/pdf/v010p00233.pdf

http://www.tcyh.org/employers/downloads/Effect%2520of%2520Smoking%2520on%2520Productivity%2520Loss.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17033509

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2013/06/04/US-businesses-pay-about-6000-extra-for-workers-who-smoke/UPI-75141370325465/

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/r050630.htm

Dude, really?? Congrats on your resume, and more importantly how you're able to post here while cutting into your 4 hour a night sleeping time :biggrin: . But facts are facts. It's not a generalization. You want me to keep going?  There are many, many more.
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2014, 01:53:49 PM »
No need to be so aggressive, bro.
if the flow checks out and your rhymes are dope enough then the police start unholstering their guns

Offline rumborak

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2014, 01:53:59 PM »
Ministry, the problem here is that you have no comparison point of how productive you would be if you stopped smoking. Given the research above, it is likely you would be more productive if you didn't smoke. And btw, no, working hard is not the same as being productive.
Not that I'm suggesting that this is the case with you, but a coworker of mine works insane hours, not because he's productive but rather the opposite, he is unproductive and thus needs to work longer to get the same amount of work done.  Again, just as an illustration that work load is no indicator of productivity.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline rumborak

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2014, 02:16:46 PM »
I'm not sure you read my post. Otherwise I can't see how you would write that last sentence.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2014, 03:01:08 PM »
Honestly, I'm not going to attempt to contribute anything more to this conversation.  I'm really excited for being see this absurdly bizarre, and completely random piece of concert film I have created.  You sit and watch it, and you are just mesmerized by 'Electric Sheep.'  Scott Draves is a genius, and so is Jordan Rudess.  The combinations of their brains is absurd. 

I'm here because I am a Dream Theater fan, and I have a whole shit ton of one-of-a-kind unreleased footage that I would like to share with people.  I'm commenting because I was enjoying the particpation.  It's fun to meet and get to know new people.  It's awesome to find other people who share my passion for DT. 

That is all.   :metal

Offline Cable

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2014, 03:58:08 PM »


He is making very insulting generalizations about smokers.  My own life, and what I do all day every day, proves he is not stating facts, that not all smokers are underachievers.


Tempus cited research in one of his posts, which nicely makes generalizations basically all the time. I think maybe he should have put "most, majority, a lot of" and so on. I think most people know all smokers aren't underachievers, much like not all smokers will develop cancer, obese people will develop diabetes, opium users developing deadly tolerances and so on. But the research is bountiful that says you are much or more likely, or -- times likely to develop X, Y and Z. Sure, it's not a silver bullet, but to deny that people are impacted by its influence, and a lot of traditional workers not creating as much product is missing the mark.


Quote
However, I do have a comparision for when I didn't smoke vs. now.  I quit smoking, and didn't smoke for the first year of my film career, and then after Adult Swim didn't purchase the show I had developed for them I started smoking again because that shit was stressful.  It's never effected my productivity.  In fact, I work more now than I did when I wasn't smoking.


Sounds like that rejection was hard for you. I can see why you wanted to work harder. Clearly the smoking is a coping mechanism.
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