Author Topic: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?  (Read 10705 times)

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Offline Jaffa

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #140 on: March 11, 2014, 01:03:25 PM »
I think I made it pretty damn clear I'm not talking about clothing. I said multiple times uniforms are A-fucking-okay.

Fair enough, but in my opinion, saying that actually hurts your case.  You seem to concede that employers do have some rights to dictate the appearance of their employees.  So why draw the line at facial hair?  What's the difference between dressing a certain way and grooming yourself a certain way? 
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Jaffa

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #141 on: March 11, 2014, 01:15:25 PM »
I am not drawing the line at facial hair, facial hair was just my personal example. I am drawing the line at physical appearance, not just for men, for every gender, for every single person. People should have the right to appear as they want, and when I say that as long as it it doesn't interfere with the job.(such as you wouldn't want a guy who spiked up their mohawk 2ft at a construction site because they couldn't wear a helmet, but if somebody wants to shave the sides of their head and keep the top long, they should have every right to do so and so forth.). Clothing is what helps identify someone who works at whatever job, which is why I find that okay. But the moment you're telling people how they have to appear, I don't find that okay.

Offline Chino

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #142 on: March 11, 2014, 01:21:57 PM »
On a somewhat related note, I have several facebook friends (more acquaintances/former co-workers than anything really) who love posting those pictures about how tattoos in the workplace are not a bad thing and how employers should not hold having tattoos against people applying for jobs.  While I generally agree, it goes back to physical appearance, and if a company doesn't want someone who has their entire arm or neck covered with some ridiculous tat, then that is their right.

All I know is, I work in a place that is very professional. There are 3000 people in my location. The only tattoos I see are on the women, and they are on their ankles. In my four months here, I haven't seen a single male with a tattoo. I'm sure guys here have them hidden, and I have nothing against people with sleeves tattoos. The only male employees with visible tattoos are the guys who work in the cafeteria, and they technically aren't employees of where I work. The cafeteria is its own company with its own employees.  I would love to have a sleeve, but I understand that I'd never have a job doing this kind of work if I had one (unless I wanted to wear long sleeves in the middle of summer).

We have execs walking around all the time, and clients in and out that are worth 8 figures, they don't want to see that kind of stuff. And not for nothing, for every person with sleeves that could handle the work in this environment, I bet there are a hundred (that's probably being nice) that can't.

Also, knowing that, why would you ever get a sleeve if your intention is to be a professional? I'm not necessarily saying I agree with the corporate attitude on tattoos, but that's the world we live in. I know very smart people who have been turned down because they have more tattoos than they can count, and some have huge holes in their face. Why would you sacrifice the ability to make serious money just to have some colors on your arm? Tattoos are really cool, I love them, but so are 3000+ square foot houses, vehicles that are still covered under warranty, kids that can have good Christmases and birthdays, the ability to indulge in high-end electronics, a nice retirement plan, and having a crapload of vacation time at work (I started with four weeks).  I understand it makes a statement, but not having to live paycheck to paycheck is pretty cool too. 

I'm not trying to put down anyone here. I'm just telling it how I see it.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 01:34:42 PM by Chino »

Offline Chino

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #143 on: March 11, 2014, 01:24:56 PM »
People should have the right to appear as they want, and when I say that as long as it it doesn't interfere with the job.

It's not about whether or not they can do the job. It's whether or not it will effect the customer base. If a doctor has tattoos everywhere and gauge ear rings, odds are people won't want to go to that one. He/she may be perfectly capable, but it's the general public's perception dictates who gets hired, not the employer. The employer is looking to make money. If tattoos effect the bottom line, even if it's not performance related, the business can't have that.

Offline jammindude

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #144 on: March 11, 2014, 01:25:19 PM »
On a somewhat related note, I have several facebook friends (more acquaintances/former co-workers than anything really) who love posting those pictures about how tattoos in the workplace are not a bad thing and how employers should not hold having tattoos against people applying for jobs.  While I generally agree, it goes back to physical appearance, and if a company doesn't want someone who has their entire arm or neck covered with some ridiculous tat, then that is their right.

All I know is, I work in a place that is very professional. There are 3000 people in my location. The only tattoos I see are on the women, and they are on their ankles. In my four months here, I haven't seen a single male with a tattoo. I'm sure guys here have them hidden, and I have nothing against people with sleeves tattoos. The only male employees with visible tattoos are the guys who work in the cafeteria, and they technically aren't employees of where I work. The cafeteria is its own company with its own employees.  I would love to have a sleeve, but I understand that I'd never have a job doing this kind of work if I had one (unless I wanted to wear long sleeves in the middle of summer).

We have execs walking around all the time, and clients in and out that are worth 8 figures, they don't want to see that kind of stuff. And not for nothing, for every person with sleeves that could handle the work in this environment, I bet there are a hundred (that's probably being nice) that can't.

Also, knowing that, why would you ever get a sleeve if your intention is to be a professional? I'm not necessarily saying I agree with the corporate attitude on tattoos, but that's the world we live in. I know very smart people who have been turned down because they have more tattoos than they can count, and some have huge holes in their face. Why would you sacrifice the ability to make serious money just to have some colors on your arm? Tattoos are really cool, I love them, but are 3000+ square foot houses, vehicles that are still covered under warranty, kids that can have good Christmases and birthdays, the ability to indulge in high-end electronics, a nice retirement plan, and having a crapload of vacation time at work (I started with four weeks).  I understand it makes a statement, but not having to live paycheck to paycheck is pretty cool too. 

I'm not trying to put down anyone here. I'm just telling it how I see it.

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Offline Jaffa

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #145 on: March 11, 2014, 01:52:27 PM »
I am not drawing the line at facial hair, facial hair was just my personal example. I am drawing the line at physical appearance, not just for men, for every gender, for every single person. People should have the right to appear as they want, and when I say that as long as it it doesn't interfere with the job.(such as you wouldn't want a guy who spiked up their mohawk 2ft at a construction site because they couldn't wear a helmet, but if somebody wants to shave the sides of their head and keep the top long, they should have every right to do so and so forth.). Clothing is what helps identify someone who works at whatever job, which is why I find that okay. But the moment you're telling people how they have to appear, I don't find that okay.

Some people consider their clothing part of their appearance and identity.  I'd say it's definitely part of their appearance, at least.  Bottom line, if employers are allowed to have some guidelines about appearances, I think any line you draw is going to be arbitrary.   
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 02:06:28 PM by Jaffa »
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Offline Implode

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #146 on: March 11, 2014, 01:59:33 PM »
Unfortunately that's the world we live in. On a personal level, I couldn't care less about how someone wears their hair or if they have tattoos are any of that. As long as it isn't a health hazard, it doesn't matter to me. If ran a company, I'd love to be able to make a statement where prospective employees weren't judged on appearance.

However, I do understand why some companies want to restrict that kind of stuff. I don't think it's right, but the world does make superficial judgments based on appearance. Businesses want to make their establishments as comfortable for their customers as possible. Some older customers might not feel comfortable being served by guys with tons of tattoos. It's not right, but it is a valid concern.

I think it'd be better overall if companies would stop perpetuating these conventions. Using the tattoo example again, more people would see people with tattoos in their everyday life, and therefore the conditioned fears and stereotypes surrounding them would go through extinction. I'm just not sure if implementing that through laws is the best way to go about it. I'd like to eventually live in a society where we  don't need that law. If people don't like how a company runs, simply don't support them. Of course that opens a whole pandora's box of problems in itself, but I'm just talking in hippie idealism here.  :lol That's where I'm coming from.

This all goes for tattoos, piercings, dyed hair, hair style, etc. As others have pointed out, uniforms are a bit different. They can also serve a practical purpose. For example, in a large department store, uniforms can help customers easily pick out employees to help them.

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #147 on: March 11, 2014, 02:03:13 PM »
To Jaffa:
That's fine too, I wear band shirts all the time, it's sort of become a part of my daily wardrobe, but the difference with that is that uniforms are what define someone working at said job. Customers would have a hard time finding somebody to assist them at Target if employees didn't have to wear a plain red top and khaki pants, but could instead dress up in whatever outfit.

Whereas, I could still have my blue mohawk and beard at Target, and Jim could be clean shaven and short haired, but we were both identifiable as employees because of our common uniform.

Offline jammindude

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #148 on: March 11, 2014, 02:16:15 PM »
While that may be true, who do you think will get a promotion to manager when the time comes?
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #149 on: March 11, 2014, 02:18:46 PM »
To Jaffa:
That's fine too, I wear band shirts all the time, it's sort of become a part of my daily wardrobe, but the difference with that is that uniforms are what define someone working at said job. Customers would have a hard time finding somebody to assist them at Target if employees didn't have to wear a plain red top and khaki pants, but could instead dress up in whatever outfit.

Whereas, I could still have my blue mohawk and beard at Target, and Jim could be clean shaven and short haired, but we were both identifiable as employees because of our common uniform.

Fair enough.  I have two questions, then.

1.  What about dress codes?  Some places don't have specific uniforms, but they do have standards about what their employees can wear.  I'm actually applying to work at a bookstore where the employees have a lot of freedom about what they wear.  The store has certain rules - no shorts, no hats, no obscene or obviously offensive designs - but it's not strict.  A lot of the employees just wear jeans and a t-shirt every day.  Now, you can't exactly identify an employee just by the fact that they're wearing jeans and a t-shirt, because lots of customers will be, too.  So this dress code doesn't necessarily serve the practical function you're talking about.  They aren't doing it to be able to identify their employees, they're doing it to set a basic standard.  Is that cool with you?

2. What if a store decides that all of its employees have to have blue mohawks?  Kind of an absurd hypothetical, granted, but how would you feel about it?  It's a regulation of physical appearance, but it does serve the practical purpose of employee identification.  Is it acceptable according to your principles?
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #150 on: March 11, 2014, 02:23:58 PM »
While that may be true, who do you think will get a promotion to manager when the time comes?
Probably him seeing I quit working there once I got back into school. But if you want the answer you're looking for, probably him, because yeah, people today do judge on appearance alone, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it and let things stay the way they are.

As for Jaffa:

1. Yeah it's cool with me, because while it's not a conventional and uncommon, it's still a uniform of sorts. You're asked to wear plain clothing, with nothing offensive, no hats, like most retail oriented jobs, and most likely you'll have a name tag identifying you as an employee.

2. No that's not acceptable, because whoever the employer is is dictating other's appearances, which isn't okay. Clothing is uniform enough. They could easily have employees wear Blue polos with dress pants or whatever, to identify the employees.

EDIT: Let's entertain the thought for number two that the blue mohawks were hats or wigs. That would be okay by me, as it'd be like wearing a costume, and it's not something the employee has to change about their own personal physical appearance.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #151 on: March 11, 2014, 02:28:22 PM »
1. Yeah it's cool with me, because while it's not a conventional and uncommon, it's still a uniform of sorts. You're asked to wear plain clothing, with nothing offensive, no hats, like most retail oriented jobs, and most likely you'll have a name tag identifying you as an employee.

2. No that's not acceptable, because whoever the employer is is dictating other's appearances, which isn't okay. Clothing is uniform enough. They could easily have employees wear Blue polos with dress pants or whatever, to identify the employees.

EDIT: Let's entertain the thought for number two that the blue mohawks were hats or wigs. That would be okay by me, as it'd be like wearing a costume, and it's not something the employee has to change about their own personal physical appearance.

But we've already established that some people think of their clothing as part of their own personal physical appearance.  So you have no reason to treat it differently. 

If you are principally opposed to companies regulating the physical appearances of their employees, uniforms shouldn't be acceptable.  If, on the other hand, your primary concern is employee identification, then mandatory mohawks should be acceptable. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Chino

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #152 on: March 11, 2014, 02:29:34 PM »
To Jaffa:
That's fine too, I wear band shirts all the time, it's sort of become a part of my daily wardrobe, but the difference with that is that uniforms are what define someone working at said job. Customers would have a hard time finding somebody to assist them at Target if employees didn't have to wear a plain red top and khaki pants, but could instead dress up in whatever outfit.

Whereas, I could still have my blue mohawk and beard at Target, and Jim could be clean shaven and short haired, but we were both identifiable as employees because of our common uniform.

2. What if a store decides that all of its employees have to have blue mohawks?  Kind of an absurd hypothetical, granted, but how would you feel about it?  It's a regulation of physical appearance, but it does serve the practical purpose of employee identification.  Is it acceptable according to your principles?

It's the company's choice and totally acceptable. Hooters requires a certain look, not just a particular uniform. I knew a guy who worked at  a laser tag place who was required to work with his haired died a neon color and spiked in a crazy fashion. The kids loved it, the business knew it, and it was made it a requirement. I see no problem with it.

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #153 on: March 11, 2014, 02:30:42 PM »
Personally, I feel like a company has the right to tell me to tap dance in a tutu at the beginning of work each day if they want to, just as I have the right to tell them to suck it and hire some other sap.
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #154 on: March 11, 2014, 02:34:52 PM »
1. Yeah it's cool with me, because while it's not a conventional and uncommon, it's still a uniform of sorts. You're asked to wear plain clothing, with nothing offensive, no hats, like most retail oriented jobs, and most likely you'll have a name tag identifying you as an employee.

2. No that's not acceptable, because whoever the employer is is dictating other's appearances, which isn't okay. Clothing is uniform enough. They could easily have employees wear Blue polos with dress pants or whatever, to identify the employees.

EDIT: Let's entertain the thought for number two that the blue mohawks were hats or wigs. That would be okay by me, as it'd be like wearing a costume, and it's not something the employee has to change about their own personal physical appearance.

But we've already established that some people think of their clothing as part of their own personal physical appearance.  So you have no reason to treat it differently. 

If you are principally opposed to companies regulating the physical appearances of their employees, uniforms shouldn't be acceptable.  If, on the other hand, your primary concern is employee identification, then mandatory mohawks should be acceptable.
Clothing is what helps define the employee, and something the employee can take off when done, they can put on an outfit that they consider part of their identity. Telling somebody "You MUST shave your head, and dye your hair blue is dictating how an employee should look." If an employee wants to do that, that's there choice, but it shouldn't be the choice of the employer.
As for Chino's thing, they could easily just buy wigs, shape those to be crazy with neon colors, and just have employees wear that. And I'm also getting the feeling that the dye is wash out, so even then, that's something the employee can take "off" when done. If not, then the wig thing I mentioned about would work just as well.

Offline El Barto

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #155 on: March 11, 2014, 03:46:54 PM »
DC: After about 3 posts I thought to myself, uh 22? Turns out you're 21.  :lol  I felt the exact same as you at that age, and within a couple of years I learned exactly what Bosk and others haven't pointed out. Employment isn't about fairness. You'll be subjected to all sorts of asinine or arbitrary decisions, and there's nothing you can do but quit or roll with it, and truth be told, your employers couldn't care less which you choose. Being right doesn't matter. Doing what they want you to does.

Kev: Do what I did. Go on vacation (or transplant recovery leave) and show back up with a full beard. In my case my employer doesn't care what I look like, but it's still a decent way to forsake shaving.
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Offline Dr. DTVT

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #156 on: March 11, 2014, 04:53:41 PM »
As someone said, it's more about how a companies customers see the company.  If you are working big box retail, they tend to be more lax because they know in most cases they are hiring someone who is just waiting for a better opportunity / school to be over.  You don't go to Target or Wal-Mart looking for prim and proper.  Is the cereal in the cereal aisle and the baby vomit on aisle 5 cleaned up promptly is all I really care about other than are there enough people at the registers.  Most able bodied people can do that job, and if someone sucks at their job it is going to have no down the road effect on the service.  Sucky employer replaced, rinse and repeat.

But when your job depends on long term commitment and interaction, you need to show your customer that you have your act together.  Like it or not, people who get lots of tats and piercings tend to have impulsive or thrill seeking personalities, and it shows that they live in the moment and do not take the future into account when making decisions.  If I'm going to make a long term commitment to a company, I don't want them being prone to rash decisions.

It's funny that this thread came up because we are currently on Spring Break, so rather than the normal khakis and polo I've been dressing down and wore an Iron Maiden shirt and jeans today and happened to cross paths with the Dean, who said, "I always figured you as Mozart type of person" and gave a good chuckle. 
     

Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #157 on: March 11, 2014, 05:10:42 PM »
DC: After about 3 posts I thought to myself, uh 22? Turns out you're 21.  :lol  I felt the exact same as you at that age, and within a couple of years I learned exactly what Bosk and others haven't pointed out. Employment isn't about fairness. You'll be subjected to all sorts of asinine or arbitrary decisions, and there's nothing you can do but quit or roll with it, and truth be told, your employers couldn't care less which you choose. Being right doesn't matter. Doing what they want you to does.

Kev: Do what I did. Go on vacation (or transplant recovery leave) and show back up with a full beard. In my case my employer doesn't care what I look like, but it's still a decent way to forsake shaving.

I'm self employed and let me add that my position is not any easier.  I'm subject to my own arbitrary and sometimes asinine decisions.  I don't have anyone to get mad at but myself when I fuck up.  When things do fuck up it costs me three to six months worth of income.  I work my ass of to keep myself employed.  I do this because it allows me the freedom of not having to participate in some Orwellian nightmare of a corporate job that requires me to be something I am not. 

The lesson here is that if you like the relative comfort of having a permanent paid position as long as you do your job in a moderately effective manner for as long as you want with a continued paycheck then you are going to have to deal with the bullshit.  If bending to the rules isn't your thing then go out and actually do you own thing. You'll get all the personal freedom you want and you'll probably starve for a couple of years if you do it correctly and then have success after you've already given up on your dreams and don't give a shit anymore. 

Those are your only two choices. 


Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #158 on: March 11, 2014, 08:04:20 PM »
Employment isn't about fairness. You'll be subjected to all sorts of asinine or arbitrary decisions, and there's nothing you can do but quit or roll with it, and truth be told, your employers couldn't care less which you choose. Being right doesn't matter. Doing what they want you to does.
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #159 on: March 11, 2014, 10:59:46 PM »
What I don't get is why as a society we let that happen.

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #160 on: March 11, 2014, 11:07:23 PM »
What I don't get is why as a society we let that happen.

Because it is not possible to control *everybody* without a dictatorship.    So there are two choices.   The free market, which must cater to a contingent of society that will always demand a certain standard of what they consider to be "professionalism"...or have a central figure to *dictate* to everyone what his standards are.   And if he agrees with you, he will dictate your standards to the masses.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #161 on: March 11, 2014, 11:10:56 PM »
What I don't get is why as a society we let that happen.

Because people need jobs more than they need to exercise the need to appear the way they want to.
     

Offline TempusVox

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #162 on: March 12, 2014, 12:14:42 AM »
I dont know why this is so hard to comprehend here. We form first impressions and overall judgments about people by the way they dress, and look. If the way someone dresses, or wears their hair, etc affects the perception of your company's customers or business partners, it is important to maintain a standard of dress that creates a positive impression. No standard or casual dress standards may make employees comfortable, but the point of professionalism and etiquette is to make others comfortable. Your company makes it's money (Including the money it pays you to do your job), by pleasing and retaining and attracting its customers. Without those customers, there is NO job. Now depending on what industry you work in, it might not matter. And if it comes down to making "you'' the individual happy with blue hair, or a facial tattoo; or attracting and retaining customers for the good of the company overall, guess which one is going to win out? I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count. I'll wait for your answer....

Using the, "Why can't I wear blue hair?" analogy is short-sighted in many instances. You might as well ask, "Why can't I walk around with my schlong hanging out of my fly?" (Extreme example? Of course it is) Being illegal not-withstanding, because the majority of the customers in certain industries would not feel it appropriate. So it ain't gonna happen. That is NOT the companies fault. The company has stated, in order to work here, these are our rules. If you can't abide by these rules, then don't bother to apply. Keep on truckin' on down the road with you facial tat, or your pierced lip and best of luck to you.

U.S. law strongly supports the rights of an employer to establish a dress code that aligns with their business activities. It's part of the free market system and competition. It's just the nature of the beast. If you don't understand that the majority of people (young and old) might have preconceived notions about outrageous dress or looks, then you're being naive.

Try applying for a job at Disney. They are very upfront about appearance as a "cast" member in any of their business units. If you can't adhere to their policies, then you don't work there.

Is all of this stuff about appearance "fair" to the individual?  Not to some obviously. But to most people it is. Life is about choices. There are other ways to express yourself while also not limiting your opportunites to succeed or get ahead in this world.

Some people might think with all these rules, "The MAN, is keeping them down". I like to think, with these rules, "the man" is trying to lift you up. You want to make more money, or work in this industry, or have this career? Wear this suit, have natural hair color, don't tattoo 666 across your forehead, don't use nicotine, etc, etc.

I'll add that this is coming from someone who when he was an undergrad playing football, had a Mohawk that was dyed purple and gold (blonde).  :metal
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 12:29:05 AM by TempusVox »
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Offline jammindude

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #163 on: March 12, 2014, 12:28:30 AM »
 :hefdaddy
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Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #164 on: March 12, 2014, 01:07:00 AM »
I dont know why this is so hard to comprehend here. We form first impressions and overall judgments about people by the way they dress, and look. If the way someone dresses, or wears their hair, etc affects the perception of your company's customers or business partners, it is important to maintain a standard of dress that creates a positive impression. No standard or casual dress standards may make employees comfortable, but the point of professionalism and etiquette is to make others comfortable. Your company makes it's money (Including the money it pays you to do your job), by pleasing and retaining and attracting its customers. Without those customers, there is NO job. Now depending on what industry you work in, it might not matter. And if it comes down to making "you'' the individual happy with blue hair, or a facial tattoo; or attracting and retaining customers for the good of the company overall, guess which one is going to win out? I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count. I'll wait for your answer....

Using the, "Why can't I wear blue hair?" analogy is short-sighted in many instances. You might as well ask, "Why can't I walk around with my schlong hanging out of my fly?" (Extreme example? Of course it is) Being illegal not-withstanding, because the majority of the customers in certain industries would not feel it appropriate. So it ain't gonna happen. That is NOT the companies fault. The company has stated, in order to work here, these are our rules. If you can't abide by these rules, then don't bother to apply. Keep on truckin' on down the road with you facial tat, or your pierced lip and best of luck to you.

U.S. law strongly supports the rights of an employer to establish a dress code that aligns with their business activities. It's part of the free market system and competition. It's just the nature of the beast. If you don't understand that the majority of people (young and old) might have preconceived notions about outrageous dress or looks, then you're being naive.

Try applying for a job at Disney. They are very upfront about appearance as a "cast" member in any of their business units. If you can't adhere to their policies, then you don't work there.

Is all of this stuff about appearance "fair" to the individual?  Not to some obviously. But to most people it is. Life is about choices. There are other ways to express yourself while also not limiting your opportunites to succeed or get ahead in this world.

Some people might think with all these rules, "The MAN, is keeping them down". I like to think, with these rules, "the man" is trying to lift you up. You want to make more money, or work in this industry, or have this career? Wear this suit, have natural hair color, don't tattoo 666 across your forehead, don't use nicotine, etc, etc.

I'll add that this is coming from someone who when he was an undergrad playing football, had a Mohawk that was dyed purple and gold (blonde).  :metal

Unless you work at Google.  From April 2012 until about six weeks ago I shared an apartment in Mountain View, California with my friend Alex who is a Google programmer.  I've been on that campus many times and the pride of Google is expressions of individuality.  There are people who work there who skate across the campus with blue Mohawks, and have sleeve tattoos, and smoke cigarettes, and make around 200k a year doing so. 


Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #165 on: March 12, 2014, 06:37:12 AM »
I smoke, I work.

I smoke in my designated lunch hour and wander round for a bit so the smell wears off a bit, no-one knew in my office until someone saw me.

So how can you say that all smokers stink and it affects their work?

Edit: and on the visual note, people have a right to be independant and look the way they want, but obviously there's a boundary, like you can't work with customers with a big dick tattoo on their forehead.

Offline Chino

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #166 on: March 12, 2014, 06:47:00 AM »
Unless you work at Google.  From April 2012 until about six weeks ago I shared an apartment in Mountain View, California with my friend Alex who is a Google programmer.  I've been on that campus many times and the pride of Google is expressions of individuality.  There are people who work there who skate across the campus with blue Mohawks, and have sleeve tattoos, and smoke cigarettes, and make around 200k a year doing so.

Google is a rare exception. Google is one of a kind. Google also has massage parlors, spas, and arcades that the employees are free to go use whenever they'd like. In some instances, when a skill set is worth $200k per year, the employee does have a slight upper hand. But Google also has a business model like no other company out there.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 07:04:13 AM by Chino »

Offline Chino

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #167 on: March 12, 2014, 06:51:10 AM »
What I don't get is why as a society we let that happen.

Because there are a lot of bad apples in our society. There are plenty of people with tattoos that are completely decent. However, go to a prison, and you see something in common. The vast majority of people are tatted up, kind of the opposite of a well functioning society. Bikers, wife beaters, gang members, meat heads at bars, the hot heads at the gym, people that are likely to inflict serious bodily harm on others,  etc... all sport tattoos. You can't blame society for having the initial reaction of being hesitant when someone comes in all tatted up.

See.



« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 08:29:23 AM by Chino »

Offline jammindude

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #168 on: March 12, 2014, 08:35:42 AM »
I smoke, I work.

I smoke in my designated lunch hour and wander round for a bit so the smell wears off a bit, no-one knew in my office until someone saw me.

So how can you say that all smokers stink and it affects their work?


Actually, no one said that.   What they did say is that studies have shown that AS A GROUP "smokers" very commonly have those issues.   If you are a smoker, you have chosen to include yourself in a certain subset of society that TENDS to have those issues....therefore society in general will label you as such.
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #169 on: March 12, 2014, 08:41:36 AM »
Well, when it comes to the issue of smell, I'm not sure how an individual smoker would really avoid that.  I'm sorry to generalize, but to me, it kinda makes sense that a person who uses a product with a distinct smell will carry that smell with them.  We've seen people in this thread talk about how the smell of stale smoke lingered in their clothing for months or years.  It's not something that totally disappears if you just wander around a bit during a lunch break. 
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #170 on: March 12, 2014, 08:42:42 AM »
Well, when it comes to the issue of smell, I'm not sure how an individual smoker would really avoid that.  I'm sorry to generalize, but to me, it kinda makes sense that a person who uses a product with a distinct smell will carry that smell with them.  We've seen people in this thread talk about how the smell of stale smoke lingered in their clothing for months or years.  It's not something that totally disappears if you just wander around a bit during a lunch break.

Agreed.   And when I smoked, I absolutely DID NOT think I or anyone else could smell it on me.
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Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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Offline Chino

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #171 on: March 12, 2014, 08:45:38 AM »
Well, when it comes to the issue of smell, I'm not sure how an individual smoker would really avoid that.  I'm sorry to generalize, but to me, it kinda makes sense that a person who uses a product with a distinct smell will carry that smell with them.  We've seen people in this thread talk about how the smell of stale smoke lingered in their clothing for months or years.  It's not something that totally disappears if you just wander around a bit during a lunch break.

Agreed.   And when I smoked, I absolutely DID NOT think I or anyone else could smell it on me.

I didn't notice until after I stopped smoking, just how long the smell hangs around.

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #172 on: March 12, 2014, 08:55:13 AM »
My dad is the worst with that. He complains about cigar smokers all while never realize how much he reeks of smoke. Of course he also believes that because he's able to hunt and do a physically demanding job that decades of smoking research is of course wrong and it hasn't had any effect on him at all. When people are addicted and happy, there is always a way to justify what they're doing.

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #173 on: March 12, 2014, 10:53:04 AM »
I dont know why this is so hard to comprehend here. We form first impressions and overall judgments about people by the way they dress, and look. If the way someone dresses, or wears their hair, etc affects the perception of your company's customers or business partners, it is important to maintain a standard of dress that creates a positive impression. No standard or casual dress standards may make employees comfortable, but the point of professionalism and etiquette is to make others comfortable. Your company makes it's money (Including the money it pays you to do your job), by pleasing and retaining and attracting its customers. Without those customers, there is NO job. Now depending on what industry you work in, it might not matter. And if it comes down to making "you'' the individual happy with blue hair, or a facial tattoo; or attracting and retaining customers for the good of the company overall, guess which one is going to win out? I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count. I'll wait for your answer....

Using the, "Why can't I wear blue hair?" analogy is short-sighted in many instances. You might as well ask, "Why can't I walk around with my schlong hanging out of my fly?" (Extreme example? Of course it is) Being illegal not-withstanding, because the majority of the customers in certain industries would not feel it appropriate. So it ain't gonna happen. That is NOT the companies fault. The company has stated, in order to work here, these are our rules. If you can't abide by these rules, then don't bother to apply. Keep on truckin' on down the road with you facial tat, or your pierced lip and best of luck to you.

U.S. law strongly supports the rights of an employer to establish a dress code that aligns with their business activities. It's part of the free market system and competition. It's just the nature of the beast. If you don't understand that the majority of people (young and old) might have preconceived notions about outrageous dress or looks, then you're being naive.

Try applying for a job at Disney. They are very upfront about appearance as a "cast" member in any of their business units. If you can't adhere to their policies, then you don't work there.

Is all of this stuff about appearance "fair" to the individual?  Not to some obviously. But to most people it is. Life is about choices. There are other ways to express yourself while also not limiting your opportunites to succeed or get ahead in this world.

Some people might think with all these rules, "The MAN, is keeping them down". I like to think, with these rules, "the man" is trying to lift you up. You want to make more money, or work in this industry, or have this career? Wear this suit, have natural hair color, don't tattoo 666 across your forehead, don't use nicotine, etc, etc.

I'll add that this is coming from someone who when he was an undergrad playing football, had a Mohawk that was dyed purple and gold (blonde).  :metal

Unless you work at Google.  From April 2012 until about six weeks ago I shared an apartment in Mountain View, California with my friend Alex who is a Google programmer.  I've been on that campus many times and the pride of Google is expressions of individuality.  There are people who work there who skate across the campus with blue Mohawks, and have sleeve tattoos, and smoke cigarettes, and make around 200k a year doing so.

Since you quoted my post, did you read it? Seventh sentence, first paragraph.

"Now depending on what industry you work in, it might not matter."

I promise you, if Google worked in an industry where ALL of their employees came into constant physical contact with their customers, that wouldn't be the case. I'll give you an example, when I was an attorney, one of my clients was an agency in DC that put on events and shows. They were the company that did things like develop the Super Bowl half-time show, the Oscars, Grammys, NYC marathon. They did massive event planning and coordination around the world, with offices in DC, LA, Chicago, ATL, NYC, Toronto, London, Paris, Munich, etc...you get the picture. As you might imagine, they had a number of very talented and creative people there. Artists, programmers, conceptual designers. I'm talking VERY talented people. Nearly all of these people rarely interacted with the customer one on one though. Why? They were typically more free spirited thinkers. Their creativity was inspired by letting them do their own thing so to speak. I recall one whole section of their building was where most of these people worked; and usually most of the lights were out. It was like being in a damn cave, but they liked it that way, so the area was kept very dark visually, and also very quiet. It was almost surreal. Walking into that section of the building was like falling into the ''rabbit hole''.

 Now they had project managers who worked with them and the clients, and who did most interactions with the client. They also had sales staff, who had VERY strict standards for dress and appearance. If one of their top designers came in with a mohawk, so be it. They were there for their creative ability. But if you wanted to work in sales, then that was not allowed.
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Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #174 on: March 12, 2014, 11:04:06 AM »
I dont know why this is so hard to comprehend here. We form first impressions and overall judgments about people by the way they dress, and look. If the way someone dresses, or wears their hair, etc affects the perception of your company's customers or business partners, it is important to maintain a standard of dress that creates a positive impression. No standard or casual dress standards may make employees comfortable, but the point of professionalism and etiquette is to make others comfortable. Your company makes it's money (Including the money it pays you to do your job), by pleasing and retaining and attracting its customers. Without those customers, there is NO job. Now depending on what industry you work in, it might not matter. And if it comes down to making "you'' the individual happy with blue hair, or a facial tattoo; or attracting and retaining customers for the good of the company overall, guess which one is going to win out? I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count. I'll wait for your answer....

Using the, "Why can't I wear blue hair?" analogy is short-sighted in many instances. You might as well ask, "Why can't I walk around with my schlong hanging out of my fly?" (Extreme example? Of course it is) Being illegal not-withstanding, because the majority of the customers in certain industries would not feel it appropriate. So it ain't gonna happen. That is NOT the companies fault. The company has stated, in order to work here, these are our rules. If you can't abide by these rules, then don't bother to apply. Keep on truckin' on down the road with you facial tat, or your pierced lip and best of luck to you.

U.S. law strongly supports the rights of an employer to establish a dress code that aligns with their business activities. It's part of the free market system and competition. It's just the nature of the beast. If you don't understand that the majority of people (young and old) might have preconceived notions about outrageous dress or looks, then you're being naive.

Try applying for a job at Disney. They are very upfront about appearance as a "cast" member in any of their business units. If you can't adhere to their policies, then you don't work there.

Is all of this stuff about appearance "fair" to the individual?  Not to some obviously. But to most people it is. Life is about choices. There are other ways to express yourself while also not limiting your opportunites to succeed or get ahead in this world.

Some people might think with all these rules, "The MAN, is keeping them down". I like to think, with these rules, "the man" is trying to lift you up. You want to make more money, or work in this industry, or have this career? Wear this suit, have natural hair color, don't tattoo 666 across your forehead, don't use nicotine, etc, etc.

I'll add that this is coming from someone who when he was an undergrad playing football, had a Mohawk that was dyed purple and gold (blonde).  :metal

Unless you work at Google.  From April 2012 until about six weeks ago I shared an apartment in Mountain View, California with my friend Alex who is a Google programmer.  I've been on that campus many times and the pride of Google is expressions of individuality.  There are people who work there who skate across the campus with blue Mohawks, and have sleeve tattoos, and smoke cigarettes, and make around 200k a year doing so.

Since you quoted my post, did you read it? Seventh sentence, first paragraph.

"Now depending on what industry you work in, it might not matter."

I promise you, if Google worked in an industry where ALL of their employees came into constant physical contact with their customers, that wouldn't be the case. I'll give you an example, when I was an attorney, one of my clients was an agency in DC that put on events and shows. They were the company that did things like develop the Super Bowl half-time show, the Oscars, Grammys, NYC marathon. They did massive event planning and coordination around the world, with offices in DC, LA, Chicago, ATL, NYC, Toronto, London, Paris, Munich, etc...you get the picture. As you might imagine, they had a number of very talented and creative people there. Artists, programmers, conceptual designers. I'm talking VERY talented people. Nearly all of these people rarely interacted with the customer one on one though. Why? They were typically more free spirited thinkers. Their creativity was inspired by letting them do their own thing so to speak. I recall one whole section of their building was where most of these people worked; and usually most of the lights were out. It was like being in a damn cave, but they liked it that way, so the area was kept very dark visually, and also very quiet. It was almost surreal. Walking into that section of the building was like falling into the ''rabbit hole''.

 Now they had project managers who worked with them and the clients, and who did most interactions with the client. They also had sales staff, who had VERY strict standards for dress and appearance. If one of their top designers came in with a mohawk, so be it. They were there for their creative ability. But if you wanted to work in sales, then that was not allowed.

Ha. He buries one sentence in his statement which negates the rest of his statement, which is stated as if it were fact, and then uses that one statement to negate anyone who disagrees with him.   :lol