Author Topic: 6 new constitutional amendments...  (Read 6924 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2014, 11:52:33 AM »
When I was able to do a study-abroad program in law school, when in Shanghai, I was told that the typical timeline from completion of initial trial through appeal and execution in capital cases is 9 days.  Not sure if that is accurate or not, but for what it is worth, it was a Chinese law professor that said it.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2014, 12:10:49 PM »
thanks EB and Bosk.
And do the numbers indicate that the short time-frame plays any role in its effectiveness/lack of?

Offline El Barto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2014, 12:25:13 PM »
As Bosk pointed out earlier, it's impossible to really figure that out since there could be other factors in play. Still, I find it somewhat hard not to make some inferences. The Chinese are masters at trying, convicting and executing people efficiently, yet they have to do it in staggering numbers. Not proof of anything, but certainly something that you have to notice.

Personally, I look at it in relation to a variety of countries and how they deal with criminal justice. It just seems quite difficult to not notice that the countries which take a more progressive approach are currently getting better results. Again, as Bosk might rightly point out, it's possible that their lack of violent crime is what allows the softer approach, but that's just looking less and less likely to me.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2014, 12:40:53 PM »
As Bosk pointed out earlier, it's impossible to really figure that out since there could be other factors in play. Still, I find it somewhat hard not to make some inferences. The Chinese are masters at trying, convicting and executing people efficiently, yet they have to do it in staggering numbers. Not proof of anything, but certainly something that you have to notice.

Actually, I was told that the number are comparatively very low, especially when viewed in light of the fact that a much larger number of crimes are potential capital offenses than, for example, over here.  Of course, that may have been purely propaganda or wrong for any number of other reaons, and I have no way of testing the veracity of it.  Personally, I am not sure whether I believe it or not.  I personally have no reason to doubt it.  But I can also come up with any number of conceivable rationales for why it could be incorrect.  Just not enough info one way or the other for me to form a conclusion.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2014, 01:16:55 PM »
From what I hear the only thing that's low when talking about Chinese executions is the estimates of how many get whacked. We only know about the ones that get reported, whereas a whole bunch of them are nobodies out in the Styx that we never hear about. I could see how given their population and the number of capital offenses over there their numbers could be proportionately lower than they appear, but it would seem that the overall number is quite a bit higher than what people usually cite.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2014, 01:39:37 PM »
In all fairness, pretty much anything done in China is done in staggering numbers.  That's the only kind of numbers they have.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2014, 01:48:02 PM »
In all fairness, pretty much anything done in China is done in staggering numbers.  That's the only kind of numbers they have.

I can refute that statement with one statistic:  "And the number of prog metal fans in China is...[not a staggering number]"
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2014, 02:10:32 PM »
Yeah, it probably is.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2014, 02:16:35 PM »
I would say that that depends on how easily staggered you are.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2014, 02:27:37 PM »
Well, in terms of per capita executions, China is about double the US just over a third of Texas. This is according to Amnesty International. Since I'm pretty sure I know how Bosk feels about the source, I'll throw out there right now that the numbers for China are actually going to be higher. Surprisingly, Amnesty International went the conservative route with their numbers and used only confirmed executions, which are almost certainly short of the actual numbers.

Interestingly, it appears that the reason China won't release actual numbers is to add to the deterrent factor. That actually makes some sense.

And though they're not listed on this 2007 chart, Singapore is now battling Iran and SA for the crown.

Quote
Country/Region    Executions    Population (mil)    Executions/Million Persons
Texas*     0.95
China    0.35
Iran        4.81
Saudi Arabia 5.08
Pakistan    0.80
USA    42    0.14

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Offline XJDenton

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #115 on: March 12, 2014, 02:30:26 PM »
The problem with trying to establish a causal relationship with deterrence is that it is extremely difficult to get good numbers on the number of people who were deterred. I mean, would you answer honestly if polled whether you had considered killing someone (assuming you had)?

Offline bosk1

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #116 on: March 12, 2014, 02:37:58 PM »
Since I'm pretty sure I know how Bosk feels about the source...

No strong feelings either way.


The problem with trying to establish a causal relationship with deterrence is that it is extremely difficult to get good numbers on the number of people who were deterred. I mean, would you answer honestly if polled whether you had considered killing someone (assuming you had)?

Sure.  I freely admit I have entertained thoughts of killing each and every member of this forum.  The frequency probably doubles or triples for most members who have access to P/R.  Next question...
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #117 on: March 12, 2014, 02:38:51 PM »
:backupslowly:
if the flow checks out and your rhymes are dope enough then the police start unholstering their guns

Offline El Barto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #118 on: March 12, 2014, 03:24:18 PM »
Sure.  I freely admit I have entertained thoughts of killing each and every member of this forum.  The frequency probably doubles or triples for most members who have access to P/R.  Next question...
Wow, I think I went with only half the members when I made this claim a few days ago, maybe even a third, and I actually put some real consideration into the number.   :lol I think I'll remember this the next time a thread on objective morality pops up. 
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #119 on: March 12, 2014, 03:28:49 PM »
Sure.  I freely admit I have entertained thoughts of killing each and every member of this forum.  The frequency probably doubles or triples for most members who have access to P/R.  Next question...

Well, I was planning on posting some hardcore porn in GD later today but consider me deterred.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2014, 03:39:02 PM »
Anybody who says they've never even considered killing anybody is probably not being honest, in my opinion. 
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Offline bosk1

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2014, 03:40:36 PM »
Sure.  I freely admit I have entertained thoughts of killing each and every member of this forum.  The frequency probably doubles or triples for most members who have access to P/R.  Next question...

Well, I was planning on posting some hardcore porn in GD later today but consider me deterred.

:lol 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2014, 04:38:46 PM »
Once again, the world only needs to look to DTF for the solution and answer to all of its problems

Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2014, 05:31:01 PM »
Not to take the thread too far off the rails, but I think every human is capable of murder depending on the circumstances and if they're pushed hard enough. Of course, most of the time those circumstances are probably going to be a bit extreme and I don't see how having a death penalty is going to have any effect on it.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2014, 05:57:38 PM »
Do we atleast agree that a greater punishment is more of a deterent than a lesser?   If we all have the potential to commit horrific crimes, which I generally agree with, does the difference between a $50 fine and life in prison play any role in how tempted I am to go thru with it?

Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #125 on: March 12, 2014, 06:04:03 PM »
Do we atleast agree that a greater punishment is more of a deterent than a lesser?   If we all have the potential to commit horrific crimes, which I generally agree with, does the difference between a $50 fine and life in prison play any role in how tempted I am to go thru with it?

I could go along with that if we're only talking about pre-meditaded murder.
All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again

Offline El Barto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #126 on: March 12, 2014, 06:04:21 PM »
Do we atleast agree that a greater punishment is more of a deterent than a lesser?   If we all have the potential to commit horrific crimes, which I generally agree with, does the difference between a $50 fine and life in prison play any role in how tempted I am to go thru with it?
How many times in your past did you risk an actual, honest to God prison sentence? Was it a deterrent to not commit the crime, or a motivation to be smarter about not getting caught?

I'll add to that I suspect you had the same mindset as me, which was that eventually everybody will get caught doing the sorts of no good that we were up to. Some of us were just lucky enough to quit before our luck ran out, and luck was really what it was.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 06:41:56 PM by El Barto »
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #127 on: March 13, 2014, 10:29:31 AM »
Since we're still talking about capital punishment and deterrence, the SXSW thing is an interesting aspect to it. In short, some moron gets shitfaced and drives down the wrong side of a street. When Johnny tries to stop him he takes of and during the course of fleeing police plows into a giant crowd of people killing a couple of them. He's facing capital murder charges, and they will very definitely seek the death penalty for him. I want to say right now that I'm not defending the guy, or criticizing the decision to string him up. I do want to ask if this prospect was a deterrent to him. Do deterrents matter when you've been drinking at a lively street festival, which is legal if not even tacitly encouraged?
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #128 on: March 13, 2014, 10:41:30 AM »
I'd personally rather see him sit in a cell the rest of his life knowing that his idiotic actions took the lives of others. I want that to haunt him for the rest of his life.
Death just lets him escape that burden.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #129 on: March 13, 2014, 11:27:40 AM »
I'd personally rather see him sit in a cell the rest of his life knowing that his idiotic actions took the lives of others. I want that to haunt him for the rest of his life.
Death just lets him escape that burden.
Out of curiosity are you a drinker, or one of the many young DTF'ers that "have never touched alcohol, drugs or cigarettes"?
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #130 on: March 13, 2014, 11:36:48 AM »
Obviously it wasn't a deterrent after he was intoxicated, but it potentially could have been a deterrent when he was making arrangements for rides before he started drinking.
It makes me wonder what the statistics are for drunk driving in relation to the increasing consequences over the last few decades.

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #131 on: March 13, 2014, 11:45:42 AM »
I'd personally rather see him sit in a cell the rest of his life knowing that his idiotic actions took the lives of others. I want that to haunt him for the rest of his life.
Death just lets him escape that burden.
Out of curiosity are you a drinker, or one of the many young DTF'ers that "have never touched alcohol, drugs or cigarettes"?

I am a drinker  :P

Offline El Barto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #132 on: March 13, 2014, 11:50:45 AM »
Obviously it wasn't a deterrent after he was intoxicated, but it potentially could have been a deterrent when he was making arrangements for rides before he started drinking.
It makes me wonder what the statistics are for drunk driving in relation to the increasing consequences over the last few decades.
I already know you were a drinker. How many times did you set out to have a drink or two, and find yourself absolutely hammered 4 hours later? Nobody ever sets out to get completely out of control drunk.

As for the stats, that's impossible to say. I know that DWI is way down over the last few years, and I know those asshats at MADD would like to take all of the credit for it. The problem is that I think most of that has to do with education changing attitudes. DTF is a fine example. You and I are from a time when everybody drove around drinking. It was just pretty normal and acceptable. Most of the kids posting here would call you a monster for driving after one sip of beer, and condemn you to hell for it.  :lol


I am a drinker  :P
Fair enough. Since you understand the details of what you're saying I certainly won't question you on your stance.  :tup
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #133 on: March 13, 2014, 12:05:15 PM »
actually, I never really was a drinker.  the one time I remember driving drunk it scared the living daylights out of me.
I was more of a cannabis and LSD driver.  The former didn't seem to have much affect on my driving (at least compared to drinking) and the other continually makes me wonder how I didn't kill anyone.

I can honestly say that I do not know if the threat of death would have curbed my LSD driving, but I do know that if I had've taken someones life I would not oppose a death sentence.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #134 on: March 13, 2014, 12:10:18 PM »
How many times did you set out to have a drink or two, and find yourself absolutely hammered 4 hours later? Nobody ever sets out to get completely out of control drunk.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, this is exactly why I support a fairly black-and-white view on drinking and driving.  I don't think you're evil if you take one drink and then drive, but I do think you're taking a big risk, and I think it makes sense for the law to reflect that.  True, if you just had one beer, chances are good that you're probably fine to drive.  But as you said, it's easy to set out to have one or two drinks and end up getting totally out of control.  That one beer could have led to a second beer, and that second beer could have led to a third, and that third beer could have led to you being completely hammered four hours later.  So if you were planning on driving yourself home all along, what's going to stop you from choosing to drive once you're out of control drunk?  That's why I think it's best to just plan on walking or getting a ride if you're going to be drinking at all. 
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #135 on: March 13, 2014, 12:13:16 PM »
  You and I are from a time when everybody drove around drinking. It was just pretty normal and acceptable.

And that is not a good thing.  Granted, during my early years of drinking, I will admit that we did it, too, but that doesn't make it right.  I feel lucky that neither me nor any of my friends at the time ever got in an accident as a result (although we didn't drive around getting plastered; I am talking driving around while drinking a few beers each). I get that it's a rite of passage that many go through when first discovering drinking, which is why it is often an accepted thing, but it's still pretty dangerous.

Nowadays, I rarely drink alcohol anymore, which of course often leads to me being the designated driver when I am going somewhere with friends. :facepalm: :lol

Offline El Barto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #136 on: March 13, 2014, 12:21:49 PM »
How many times did you set out to have a drink or two, and find yourself absolutely hammered 4 hours later? Nobody ever sets out to get completely out of control drunk.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, this is exactly why I support a fairly black-and-white view on drinking and driving.  I don't think you're evil if you take one drink and then drive, but I do think you're taking a big risk, and I think it makes sense for the law to reflect that.  True, if you just had one beer, chances are good that you're probably fine to drive.  But as you said, it's easy to set out to have one or two drinks and end up getting totally out of control.  That one beer could have led to a second beer, and that second beer could have led to a third, and that third beer could have led to you being completely hammered four hours later.  So if you were planning on driving yourself home all along, what's going to stop you from choosing to drive once you're out of control drunk?  That's why I think it's best to just plan on walking or getting a ride if you're going to be drinking at all.
Well I'll be damned. This is actually a really reasonable argument. I still can't get behind it since I think impairment should be the criterion, but it's a very interesting approach.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #137 on: March 13, 2014, 12:27:49 PM »
For sure.  And to expand on me rarely drinking anymore, because I rarely drink now, I have zero tolerance left, so I have no idea how much I can handle - although I know it's not much :lol - so it's not worth it for me to take that chance. 

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #138 on: March 13, 2014, 12:28:34 PM »
That is why I have a cardinal rule that I never *EVER* go beyond.   I've ingrained it deeply into my psyche, and since I came up with it, I have never broken it.

When I am out, I can have one drink.   Two if I am having a full meal.   That's it.   Period.   Two does not lead to three, because three is simply not done.  I don't care how long I'm going to be there.     I'll switch to water. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 6 new constitutional amendments...
« Reply #139 on: March 13, 2014, 12:48:16 PM »
For sure.  And to expand on me rarely drinking anymore, because I rarely drink now, I have zero tolerance left, so I have no idea how much I can handle - although I know it's not much :lol - so it's not worth it for me to take that chance.
Yeah, same boat here. I'd cut way back on my drinking a few months before the transplant, and have only drank infrequently since then. Three beers is a very nice buzz for me now. As I quite enjoy a nice buzz, it's actually pretty bad ass AFAIC.
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