Author Topic: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.  (Read 9891 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2014, 10:48:20 AM »
Nice that a thread about the Ukraine is filled with discussion about internal US politics.. which have nothing to do with the problems in the Ukraine.

I agree. I tried to take the discussion that direction, and all we got was one joke reply - but at least it was a good joke.
I actually agree with your point. I'm not well enough versed in the geopolitical aspect of Crimea/Ukraine to really delve into it, but it does seem to me that Russia has more of right to be there than we would.
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Offline Dr. DTVT

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2014, 11:51:16 AM »
I guess what my post implied was that we shouldn't be getting involved, despite the fact that people seem to think we need to respond.
     

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2014, 02:32:55 PM »
The USA does NOT need to respond, as i said before, it's more of west Europe's deal, mainly because this all happened because Ukraine both wanted to be in Europe and tied with Russia at the same time.

Though I can see why the USA are involved, being part of the UN and allies with UK, But that doesn't at all make the situation all about USA vs Russia.

Offline bosk1

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2014, 03:08:16 PM »
If Bosk wants to chime in on whether or not I get a pass that's his purview. I couldn't tell you. I just assume I'm pretty good at walking a fine line. Though I will point out though that in the same post you say I implied you were stupid (and I don't think you are--just misguided) you made identical implications that I was vapid and childish which you didn't get warned over.  :lol

I'm not intending to give anyone a "pass" or whatnot--I just don't read every single word of every single post, so if you did that, I just missed it, and I hearby issue you the same slap-on-the-wrist I issued AngelBack.  Now play nice before I get out the big stick.
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Offline Dr. DTVT

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2014, 03:52:49 PM »
Now play nice before I get out the big stick.

Keep it in your pants, Bosk.

But I really came here - as an unabashed democrat (albeit a moderate) - to complain about Hillary Clinton comparing Putin's invasion to Hitler's invasion.  Why does everything bad have to be equated to Hitler if it can be?  Until there is evidence that there is a humanitarian crisis and Putin starts executing non-Russians, let them sort it out and stay out of their business.  And stop comparing everything to Hitler.

     

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2014, 05:21:29 PM »
But I really came here - as an unabashed democrat (albeit a moderate) - to complain about Hillary Clinton comparing Putin's invasion to Hitler's invasion.  Why does everything bad have to be equated to Hitler if it can be?  Until there is evidence that there is a humanitarian crisis and Putin starts executing non-Russians, let them sort it out and stay out of their business.  And stop comparing everything to Hitler.
I get her point. Interestingly, it's exactly what we've seen in this thread today. A thin line between criticizing an opponent's acts or beliefs and actually criticizing the person. To be honest, at this point I have no idea if that would have gotten Hillary banned from DTF or not.  :lol

To further elaborate while I get her point, it's not an invasion per se. It's the same rationale Hitler used to annex the Sudetenland. He's using the belief that ethnic Russians aren't being protected or treated fairly to justify his placement of troops there. This is honestly a valid comparison. I agree with you that people are far too quick to invoke Hitler analogies. It might also be the case that people are too quick to assume that it's happening. I'm not sure what other examples there are that she could have cited. I think Saddam might have used a similar approach to start the gulf war; attempting to unite the Shia Muslims in both countries. Would comparing him to Hussein have been any better?
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Offline Dr. DTVT

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2014, 06:33:30 PM »
Hitler was also the first person who tried to ban smoking.  I also get that Hillary was correct, but just because the analogy works, doesn't mean it is valid.  I don't think Putin is looking to wipe out an entire race of people.  The Ukraine's government was collapsing (thus Yanukovych fleeing), and Putin went to protect - with the intent of annexing no doubt - the Russian heavy eastern Ukraine and Crimea; an invasion that was welcomed by a significant part of the population in the invaded area.  If British Columbia wanted to break away from Canada and join the US if Canada was in political turmoil, and we sent troops there, does that make us Hitler?  I don't think so.  Broad strokes are big and hard to fix, which is why I didn't like the "jump to Hitler" stance.
     

Offline soundgarden

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2014, 06:37:33 PM »
I have no issue with American imperialism.  If every Muslim nation needed to be leveled to be assured that terrorists were wiped out, then that is what is needed.  Muslim extremists don't deserve any mercy, nor do any religious extremists.  However, we don't see Christians or Jews blowing themselves up in record numbers for their cause. However, I digress....

Statements like this make me immensely sad and immensely angry.  It shows an unfathomable misunderstanding of the peoples of the world, the histories of those peoples, and the complexities of human interactions.  Have you never met one single Muslim that that you have not seen on television?

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2014, 06:51:03 PM »
I also get that Hillary was correct, but just because the analogy works, doesn't mean it is valid.
Well, hell. There does need to be a purpose behind an analogy, and to that end you are correct; not a fair analogy to make despite it's current accuracy.
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Offline Lucien

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2014, 06:59:12 PM »
I have no issue with American imperialism.  If every Muslim nation needed to be leveled to be assured that terrorists were wiped out, then that is what is needed.  Muslim extremists don't deserve any mercy, nor do any religious extremists.  However, we don't see Christians or Jews blowing themselves up in record numbers for their cause. However, I digress....

Statements like this make me immensely sad and immensely angry.  It shows an unfathomable misunderstanding of the peoples of the world, the histories of those peoples, and the complexities of human interactions.  Have you never met one single Muslim that that you have not seen on television?

I'm going to have to agree with this, as I have quite a number of close friends that are Muslim.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2014, 08:13:14 PM »
I know plenty of Muslims. I have worked with quite a few of them as well.  However, it's apparent that people are missing the point here. I am not saying to just go there and level the whole continent just for fun.  However (and this is the part people need to pay attention to), if it came down to it and it was our best option of wiping out terrorism, I would have no issues with the military using extreme measures such as wiping out a city/cities.  We're not over there to break bread and eat goat with them.

Soundgarden, you seem to get angry at my post but you're quite alright with the situation in the Middle East? Should we just pick up and leave, let them kill each other, children, women, etc? Just because you, as I do, know good, kind-hearted Muslims doesn't mean we have to turn the other cheek when it comes to the extremists.

Offline Implode

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2014, 08:40:13 PM »
I guess the difference is that they and I think that leveling a continent simply would never be the best option.

At least I hope not. I can't imagine a situation where we literally could have no other alternative.

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2014, 08:59:10 PM »
I know plenty of Muslims. I have worked with quite a few of them as well.  However, it's apparent that people are missing the point here. I am not saying to just go there and level the whole continent just for fun.  However (and this is the part people need to pay attention to), if it came down to it and it was our best option of wiping out terrorism, I would have no issues with the military using extreme measures such as wiping out a city/cities.  We're not over there to break bread and eat goat with them.

Soundgarden, you seem to get angry at my post but you're quite alright with the situation in the Middle East? Should we just pick up and leave, let them kill each other, children, women, etc? Just because you, as I do, know good, kind-hearted Muslims doesn't mean we have to turn the other cheek when it comes to the extremists.

It also doesn't mean we have to wipe out entire populations of fucking people over small groups of radical extremists.

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #83 on: March 05, 2014, 09:01:22 PM »
We're not over there to break bread and eat goat with them.
The thing is that Chuck Colson was wrong, as we're seeing right now. Getting somebody by the balls might make them acquiesce but only long enough to regroup a helluva lot more pissed off than they were. It damn sure won't win them over. I'm not the Kumbaya type, but seeking to kill everybody that wants to do you in is a fool's errand. The only way to deal with a situation like this involving a large segment of the global population is to be cool with the ones that aren't out to get you and kill the ones that are. That means a shit-ton of bread and goat, and a handful of bombs. Finding that balance is a bitch and quite frankly we're pretty bad at it. Reinforcing the mentality that we're just not killing enough of them only makes it harder to zero in, though.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #84 on: March 05, 2014, 10:34:14 PM »
So I got reminded today about some very important geopolitical information. Remember how we're in this war in Afghanistan? I know, that's like sooo 2002. Anyways, the country is landlocked, and we're not exactly on the best of terms with the countries around it. Iran isn't gonna let us pass troops and supplies through there. Pakistan, well, Obama's been sending so many missiles there (because he's so damn weak?), and not as military aid, that they cut us off. So, for a while now, we've relied upon an agreement with Russia to supply our troops in Afghanistan. Shitty situation huh?

To every single one of the people out there who think Obama should do more, that he's being weak, and all that other nonsense - what do you honestly suggest he does? If you were the commander of 34,000 US, and very much involved in 16,000 other, troops, whose lives and safety depended upon that supply line, would you risk that supply line, and all of those troops lives, because of this incident?

Also keep in mind that Crimea, the place in question, is heavily loyal to the Russians. It's not as if Russia is invading a country that doesn't want to belong to it, and it's not doing anything this country hasn't done a thousand times over, under even worse pretenses. So given that, do you risk the lives of 50,000 troops because of this incident?




Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #85 on: March 05, 2014, 10:49:25 PM »
Has anybody actually suggested that we intervene? The inane argument that keeps getting bandied about is that Obama's vague and weak foreign policy emboldened Putin, who otherwise never would have acted.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2014, 12:58:39 AM »
I'm not sure if that's directed at me, but you don't have to intervene in Crimea to lose a supply route.

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #87 on: March 06, 2014, 02:05:06 AM »
I read an interesting article that suggests Putin is being surrounded by yes-men who dare not tell him things as they are - it's easier to say that fascists have taken over Kiev than tell him that a large number of people in Ukraine are rebelling. It's also said that even Putin himself may believe everything the national TV feeds and can't make a distinction between reality and propaganda. He has said he doesn't follow the Internet, because he thinks it doesn't represent the actual opinions of Russian people, but Medvedev recently made a Facebook post about his views on the situation in Ukraine and received over 9000 comments by people appearing with their real names and pictures, basically telling him and Putin to go to hell.

Offline kári

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #88 on: March 06, 2014, 03:11:49 AM »
I know plenty of Muslims. I have worked with quite a few of them as well.  However, it's apparent that people are missing the point here. I am not saying to just go there and level the whole continent just for fun.  However (and this is the part people need to pay attention to), if it came down to it and it was our best option of wiping out terrorism, I would have no issues with the military using extreme measures such as wiping out a city/cities.  We're not over there to break bread and eat goat with them.

Soundgarden, you seem to get angry at my post but you're quite alright with the situation in the Middle East? Should we just pick up and leave, let them kill each other, children, women, etc? Just because you, as I do, know good, kind-hearted Muslims doesn't mean we have to turn the other cheek when it comes to the extremists.
Wait what? How can you even be defending this view? You are OK with wiping out millions of people just because there are some who might harm your home country? So basically if there are terrorists living in Los Angeles you'd be OK with wiping it out? Or does it just apply to cities in the middle east for you?

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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2014, 05:55:16 AM »
Look, if it were up to me we would go back to fighting wars with swords and catapults.  I'd rather see man-to-man combat. This way it doesn't effect innocent people. To me bombing from afar is cowardly and coarse.   However, we're in a different time now.  If it came down to it, and this was our only option, I would not be against it.  I've said it a couple of times already that it would not be my preferred way of handling things, but if it needed to be that way then I wouldn't have an issue with it.  I don't see it happening and I'm sure we all agree on that.  I guess we should be more diplomatic with them because that has worked so well in the past.    ::)    We're not fighting the British or the Germans.  We're fighting an enemy that WANTS to die because they feel it is their religious need to do so.  Fighting an enemy with a paradigm that extreme needs to be dealt with atypically.

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2014, 06:06:24 AM »
Casting aside the moral and ethics you seem to lack in this instance, what do you even think wiping out the middle east will accomplish? The rest of the world won't be grateful for what you did, but they'll condemn you for it and then you'll have a whole lot more to worry about than the possibility of a terrorist attack. But I guess you could just wipe everyone else out too. USA!!!!

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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #91 on: March 06, 2014, 06:21:12 AM »
Casting aside the moral and ethics you seem to lack in this instance, what do you even think wiping out the middle east will accomplish? The rest of the world won't be grateful for what you did, but they'll condemn you for it and then you'll have a whole lot more to worry about than the possibility of a terrorist attack. But I guess you could just wipe everyone else out too. USA!!!!

 :lol   

I love how you just pay attention to part of what I said and base your opinion on that.

Shall we pray for them - the terrorists that is.  Should we do what Jesus would have done?  Should we open our hearts and homes to them to help better understand their cause? 

Offline kári

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #92 on: March 06, 2014, 06:34:39 AM »

 :lol   

I love how you just pay attention to part of what I said and base your opinion on that.

Shall we pray for them - the terrorists that is.  Should we do what Jesus would have done?  Should we open our hearts and homes to them to help better understand their cause? 
I love how you just pay no attention to anything I said and keep repeating yourself.

No we should not pray for the terrorists. Yes the world is better of without them. But wiping out cities/countries is never the solution. I really don't see how you can say that it is. Should we just wipe out Australia because there is a mass murderer hiding there somewhere?

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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #93 on: March 06, 2014, 06:47:34 AM »

 :lol   

I love how you just pay attention to part of what I said and base your opinion on that.

Shall we pray for them - the terrorists that is.  Should we do what Jesus would have done?  Should we open our hearts and homes to them to help better understand their cause? 
I love how you just pay no attention to anything I said and keep repeating yourself.

No we should not pray for the terrorists. Yes the world is better of without them. But wiping out cities/countries is never the solution. I really don't see how you can say that it is. Should we just wipe out Australia because there is a mass murderer hiding there somewhere?

When you stop making assumptions based off a few words I said, ignoring my complete thought, maybe I'll take your opinion more seriously. 

You're comparing a mass murderer to terrorism?  That's a piss poor analogy. Your priorities are all screwed up, my friend.   :P

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #94 on: March 06, 2014, 07:06:31 AM »
I'd say yours are, if small pocket groups of terrorists make it okay to level an entire country, which will only spawn more hatred and resentment.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #95 on: March 06, 2014, 07:27:35 AM »
I'd say yours are, if small pocket groups of terrorists make it okay to level an entire country, which will only spawn more hatred and resentment.

 :lol

Another one who just reads a few words.

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #96 on: March 06, 2014, 07:30:55 AM »
Well actually, I read through some of your posts before, and that's honestly what I'm gathering. If multiple people are gathering that from your posts, maybe it's just your post, and not that we're just picking out a few words.

Of course you're saying if it's the best and/or only option, but you're still saying you'd be okay with it.

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #97 on: March 06, 2014, 07:33:44 AM »
When you stop making assumptions based off a few words I said, ignoring my complete thought, maybe I'll take your opinion more seriously. 
I didn't ignore your complete thought. It is to fight terrorism, whatever it takes. Including killing all muslims as a last resort. Or you know, at least all muslims living in islamic countries.

You don't just throw that somewhere in between some sentences. Don't mock me because I focus on it.

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Offline AngelBack

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #98 on: March 06, 2014, 07:37:42 AM »
Way off topic but, I understand where ProgSnob is coming from, although I think he is not fleshing out the entire scenario enough for some to get his point.  And one aspect I hear very little of is holding host states of terrorists responsible to clean up their garbage.

If my house is over run with rats and weeds growing every where, the city doesn't come in and clean it up for me, they force me to do it.  If there were a functioning world body like the U.N. was supposed to be, I would like to see them give host states of terrorism the ultimatums to clean up the mess (terrorists) that operate within their borders.  The populace of those states is also somewhat culpable for allowing and aiding terror groups.  And yes I know, the terror groups bully the citizens but the host state government and to a lesser extent their citizens should be accountable for what happens within their borders.  And if all else fails, yes, they have to pay the price.
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2014, 07:55:31 AM »
That is a valid point, but I don't see how that is related to what ProgSnob posted.

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #100 on: March 06, 2014, 08:04:25 AM »
That is a valid point, but I don't see how that is related to what ProgSnob posted.

I may be wrong but I think he is saying if all else fails, there will be collateral damage and we have to be ok with that. 
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #101 on: March 06, 2014, 08:05:51 AM »
So should we also decimate cities in the US because of some domestic terrorist groups that reside within our own nation?

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #102 on: March 06, 2014, 08:09:15 AM »
Way off topic but, I understand where ProgSnob is coming from, although I think he is not fleshing out the entire scenario enough for some to get his point.  And one aspect I hear very little of is holding host states of terrorists responsible to clean up their garbage.

If my house is over run with rats and weeds growing every where, the city doesn't come in and clean it up for me, they force me to do it.  If there were a functioning world body like the U.N. was supposed to be, I would like to see them give host states of terrorism the ultimatums to clean up the mess (terrorists) that operate within their borders.  The populace of those states is also somewhat culpable for allowing and aiding terror groups.  And yes I know, the terror groups bully the citizens but the host state government and to a lesser extent their citizens should be accountable for what happens within their borders.  And if all else fails, yes, they have to pay the price.
I also get what PS was suggesting, and I posted an explanation for why he was mistaken. The same explanation applies here. You're not going to be successful intimidating a government into corralling it's bad citizens if you make the good ones miserable in the process. You'll create more bad guys than you can deal with. 
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #103 on: March 06, 2014, 08:44:55 AM »
For the last time, this thread is not about terrorism in the middle east.  Further off topic discussion will result in official warnings/bans being handed out.  Kari, consider this your final warning for personal attacks.
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #104 on: March 06, 2014, 08:47:02 AM »
???

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