Author Topic: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.  (Read 9629 times)

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2014, 02:03:44 PM »
Are you saying that a president's views on foreign policy have never changed during the course of their tenure as president?  It's the same from their inauguration day until the next president's inauguration day?  So if some international crisis occurred and American soldiers were being butchered in some random country, just because Romney didn't have a foreign policy about that country, he would ignore it?  Is that what you are trying tell me?
Adapting =/= Changing. That's why it's called "policy". You'd be hard pressed to find an example of a president who radically changed their foreign policy midcourse, or even many examples of foreign policy radically changing from president to president, though I'd say Clinton to Bush wound up being somewhat of a shift in aggression. (I'll give you one guess why).

As far as Obama's actions, how about something as opposed to nothing.
That's pure hyperbole.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2014, 02:11:35 PM »
Are you saying that a president's views on foreign policy have never changed during the course of their tenure as president?  It's the same from their inauguration day until the next president's inauguration day?  So if some international crisis occurred and American soldiers were being butchered in some random country, just because Romney didn't have a foreign policy about that country, he would ignore it?  Is that what you are trying tell me?
Adapting =/= Changing. That's why it's called "policy". You'd be hard pressed to find an example of a president who radically changed their foreign policy midcourse, or even many examples of foreign policy radically changing from president to president, though I'd say Clinton to Bush wound up being somewhat of a shift in aggression. (I'll give you one guess why).

As far as Obama's actions, how about something as opposed to nothing.
That's pure hyperbole.

You're playing semantics games.  To address the crisis I described above, something would need to be done and whether that was an "adaptation" or "change" is irrelevant.

Secondly, I don't think my sentence was that exaggeratory at all.  Showing some kind of backbone would have been fine by me. 

Third, Clinton to Bush?  I  guess you are referring to Bush finishing what both his father and Clinton didn't get done. 

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2014, 02:25:04 PM »
If anyone thinks MSNBC has an ounce more credibility than Fox, I canít take anything they say seriously. That is my last thought that is off topic. Sorry.

MSNBC actually fact checks their sources, they give factual scientific data, and they apologize and correct themselves. Not only that, but they constantly disagree with the status quo, Obama in particular, and are not party-line propaganda. They have a bias, yes, and in some ways thye are similiar, yes, but they are not nearly the cesspool of intelligence as Fox.

That's neither here nor there.
You can say that but you can't know for sure.  You're protecting your saviors credibility and  just distracting from the fact that Obama has done nothing regarding Russia.  This is what pisses me off about Obamanaics.  They can't just say he messed something up so they'll use some kind of smoke and mirrors to make people look elsewhere for answers. He's been the President for six years and Blame Bush, Blame Reagan, Blame Yo Mama is still an acceptable response to please the herd.
For fuck's sake, dude. Before you play those games how 'bout you learn who the players are. Neither PC nor myself have any real fondness for Obama, and I'm on record repeatedly as saying that he's probably every bit as bad a president as the dimwitted oaf that preceded him. You won't find anybody here who views Obama as a savior.


If I actually felt like wasting my time I could find 30 other instances of me making similar comments about him being weak. Look, everybody that posts regularly in P/R has seen me criticize him fairly mercilessly. It's the only thing Scheavo and I really argue over. If you want to make weak arguments about what other posters think then that's your lookout, but trying to lump me in with the fanboy crowd is only going to make you look foolish.

And I would just point out that I disagree with Obama's foreign policy in numerous area's, and that the area we disagree on is the level to which we judge his character. I think it's a little too complicated to start calling anybody evil (Bush for that matter too.... Cheney, on the other hand...), while you seem to have no trouble making it a clear cut argument.

Prog: how do you know things aren't being done? What would you like to see done that would be effective? And how do you know nothing isn't in the works? One thing my Reagan comment was about is how we're too in the moment in the media. We lose track of the fact that things take time to unfold, and that nothing is instantaneous.




Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2014, 02:26:39 PM »
You're playing semantics games.  To address the crisis I described above, something would need to be done and whether that was an "adaptation" or "change" is irrelevant.
That's not true at all. The whole point of having a "policy" is so you have some idea of how you're going to "adapt" to things - like Ukraine, or an attack. There was obviously no big policy difference between the current President and most of the credible GOP challengers. Obviously fringe guys like Paul had different ideas, but they were never close to being real challengers.

Third, Clinton to Bush?  I  guess you are referring to Bush finishing what both his father and Clinton didn't get done.
Bush introduced the "War on Terror", which was a major change in focus for US foreign policy. That's what I mean.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 02:31:58 PM by Perpetual Change »

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2014, 02:30:43 PM »
If anyone thinks MSNBC has an ounce more credibility than Fox, I canít take anything they say seriously. That is my last thought that is off topic. Sorry.

MSNBC actually fact checks their sources, they give factual scientific data, and they apologize and correct themselves. Not only that, but they constantly disagree with the status quo, Obama in particular, and are not party-line propaganda. They have a bias, yes, and in some ways thye are similiar, yes, but they are not nearly the cesspool of intelligence as Fox.

Says who? MSNBC is a joke. Believe whatever you want....
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2014, 02:37:38 PM »
This doesn't strike me as the typical "hey, someone is trying to annex my backyard" situation we had with Kuwait and countless other incursions in history.  This almost seems like an invited public mandate by the Crimean people.  I'm not saying Russia is in the right to occupy, but I don't think comparisons to other historical events are completely applicable in this case.  the Ukrainian / Crimean / Russians have their own right to forge their own destiny.  While the invasion certainly seems illegal, as long people aren't being attacked and services are still being provided, is it necessarily a bad thing?  No matter what way you want to paint it, Ukraine had some serious issues before Russia invaded, serious enough that the (former?) president felt he had to flee.  What do people EXPECT us to do?  Immediately arm up and head over there?  We sat on our hands during real humanitarian crises in Africa, so why should we take action when a peaceful (for now) occupation occurs?  Even if shit gets real and bullets start flying, why is it our job to do something?  Borders have been changing since we invented them.  We as a global community have bigger problems than what is happening in Crimea right now.
     

Offline bosk1

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2014, 02:39:01 PM »
Says who? MSNBC is a joke. Believe whatever you want....

Okay, but this thread is not in any way, shape, or form about MSNBC vs. Fox, so please drop the subject.  It is off topic.


One thing my Reagan comment was about is how we're too in the moment in the media. We lose track of the fact that things take time to unfold, and that nothing is instantaneous.

As much as I generally disagree with you over most topics in this subforum, this is an excellent point.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2014, 02:40:43 PM »
This doesn't strike me as the typical "hey, someone is trying to annex my backyard" situation we had with Kuwait and countless other incursions in history.  This almost seems like an invited public mandate by the Crimean people.  I'm not saying Russia is in the right to occupy, but I don't think comparisons to other historical events are completely applicable in this case.  the Ukrainian / Crimean / Russians have their own right to forge their own destiny.  While the invasion certainly seems illegal, as long people aren't being attacked and services are still being provided, is it necessarily a bad thing?  No matter what way you want to paint it, Ukraine had some serious issues before Russia invaded, serious enough that the (former?) president felt he had to flee.  What do people EXPECT us to do?  Immediately arm up and head over there?  We sat on our hands during real humanitarian crises in Africa, so why should we take action when a peaceful (for now) occupation occurs?  Even if shit gets real and bullets start flying, why is it our job to do something?  Borders have been changing since we invented them.  We as a global community have bigger problems than what is happening in Crimea right now.

Yeah, well, you take my life, but I'll take yours too.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2014, 03:58:16 PM »
You said his foreign policy was weak.  I said he's a weak leader.  Two different things.  While one might contribute to the other, they are not identical.
Like I said, you should get to know people's opinions before you go making generalizations about them. My opinion of Obama's presidency is well know around here, and it's light years away from what you seem to think it is.


Yeah, well, you take my life, but I'll take yours too.
Of all of the drive-by attempts at humor you and Cozmo throw out in P/R, this might be the first time I chuckled at one.

Scheavo: did I call Obama evil? Seems like I might have said that a motivation towards something was evil, but that's a different thing altogether. As for Dumbass, I doubt I called him evil either. Certainly sociopathic, but not evil per se.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2014, 04:04:56 PM »
Of all of the drive-by attempts at humor you and Cozmo throw out in P/R, this might be the first time I chuckled at one.

"Attempts?"   :yeahright

In any case, deal with the fact that you've got it stuck in your head now.  :lol
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2014, 04:12:13 PM »
Yeah, well, you take my life, but I'll take yours too.

We all know you only started listening to Maiden like, last week, Bosky.  You're not fooling anyone.

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2014, 06:34:26 PM »
You said his foreign policy was weak.  I said he's a weak leader.  Two different things.  While one might contribute to the other, they are not identical.

Agreed,  Obama is an empty suit with a completely different agenda for his presidency.  We all know his resume' is paper thin and what little we know about him is that his goals are to  level the playing field at home and abroad.  And to his credit he has been successful at both of those, abroad by default as his famous phrase "lead from behind" indicates.  Putin is a much smarter man and I'm sure he loses no sleep knowing the "leader" of the free world is a paper tiger.  Pretty much gives him carte blanche.  The Euroweenies are terrified of losing the gas and oil they depend on from Russia, so there won't be any fight there. 

And any comparisons of our military actions in the internal affairs of other nations and Russian (and soon to be Chinese) expansionism are bogus.  While we have make miscalculations, our intent was never domination.  Nation building yes.  And I am against that.  But the motivations are not comparable.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2014, 07:27:21 PM »
You said his foreign policy was weak.  I said he's a weak leader.  Two different things.  While one might contribute to the other, they are not identical.

Agreed,  Obama is an empty suit with a completely different agenda for his presidency.  We all know his resume' is paper thin and what little we know about him is that his goals are to  level the playing field at home and abroad. 
If by "level the playing field... abroad" you mean "bomb the shit out of it with drones", sure.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 07:54:18 PM by Perpetual Change »

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2014, 07:53:13 PM »
You said his foreign policy was weak.  I said he's a weak leader.  Two different things.  While one might contribute to the other, they are not identical.

Agreed,  Obama is an empty suit with a completely different agenda for his presidency.  We all know his resume' is paper thin and what little we know about him is that his goals are to  level the playing field at home and abroad. 
If by "level the playing field... abroad" you mean by "bomb the shit out of it with drones", sure.
Well, the landscape and buildings should be pretty level after a scattering of hellfire missiles.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2014, 07:54:00 PM »
You said his foreign policy was weak.  I said he's a weak leader.  Two different things.  While one might contribute to the other, they are not identical.
Like I said, you should get to know people's opinions before you go making generalizations about them. My opinion of Obama's presidency is well know around here, and it's light years away from what you seem to think it is.


Yeah, well, you take my life, but I'll take yours too.
Of all of the drive-by attempts at humor you and Cozmo throw out in P/R, this might be the first time I chuckled at one.

Scheavo: did I call Obama evil? Seems like I might have said that a motivation towards something was evil, but that's a different thing altogether. As for Dumbass, I doubt I called him evil either. Certainly sociopathic, but not evil per se.

I'm not attacking your ideology as a whole, just what I think of what you said in this conversation.

And Obama is evil by the way. 

Scheavo, to your statement regarding us not knowing if something was going on behind the scenes. I am not going to base my opinion on something that hasn't been brought to light yet.

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2014, 07:55:47 PM »
And Obama is evil by the way. 
Are Dubya and Reagan at least evil then too?

Offline orcus116

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2014, 07:57:48 PM »
What has Obama done that is really evil? He may be ineffective, sure, but evil?

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2014, 08:08:27 PM »
What has Obama done that is really evil? He may be ineffective, sure, but evil?
Personally 'evil' is not a word I'd use to describe any of the presidents, even the ones I don't really like. Some have committed evil acts, but I don't think I'd call any of them out and out evil. But if Obama is 'evil,' then I daresay most of the rest are evil as well.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2014, 08:59:10 PM »
Eh...I was being partly facetious. I just don't like the guy but the only credit I'll give him is that he's a good speaker.  Otherwise, I'd rather take four more years of Clinton than deal with this dope anymore.

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2014, 09:37:22 PM »
You said his foreign policy was weak.  I said he's a weak leader.  Two different things.  While one might contribute to the other, they are not identical.

Agreed,  Obama is an empty suit with a completely different agenda for his presidency.  We all know his resume' is paper thin and what little we know about him is that his goals are to  level the playing field at home and abroad.  And to his credit he has been successful at both of those, abroad by default as his famous phrase "lead from behind" indicates.  Putin is a much smarter man and I'm sure he loses no sleep knowing the "leader" of the free world is a paper tiger.  Pretty much gives him carte blanche.  The Euroweenies are terrified of losing the gas and oil they depend on from Russia, so there won't be any fight there. 

And any comparisons of our military actions in the internal affairs of other nations and Russian (and soon to be Chinese) expansionism are bogus.  While we have make miscalculations, our intent was never domination.  Nation building yes.  And I am against that.  But the motivations are not comparable.
Putin's position as leader of one of the most powerful nations on Earth gives him carte blanche. It has nothing to do with who's leading America. You think any other president in the last 50 years would go to war with Russia over Ukraine? Never happen. I haven't seen what Obama's actions regarding this are so I'll reserve judgement. My only defense of him, which isn't really a defense at all, is that blaming him for the current situation is pretty fucking stupid.

And for the record, of course we're motivated by domination. Everything we (and Russia, and China) do is about domination. That needn't mean going all Napoleon on everybody. It only means being the most powerful nation on Earth, which is an aspiration that pretty much every world leader shares. Furthermore, when it comes to the last 15 years, the conservative playbook pretty much spells it out. The world will benefit from American values and leadership. Whether it's active or passive, that's domination.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 09:43:36 PM by El Barto »
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2014, 06:05:11 AM »
I have no issue with American imperialism.  If every Muslim nation needed to be leveled to be assured that terrorists were wiped out, then that is what is needed.  Muslim extremists don't deserve any mercy, nor do any religious extremists.  However, we don't see Christians or Jews blowing themselves up in record numbers for their cause. However, I digress....

Back to the topic at hand. 

Yep, this about sums it up:



Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2014, 06:10:58 AM »
You have to remember that this isn't just about the USA and Russia, the UK, Germany, France and other EU countries are probably the bigger discussion point here with them having more ties with Ukraine.

How this plays out over the next few days will be interesting with apparently 16,000 Russian troops in Crimea and Putin not ruling out the rest of Ukraine.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2014, 06:33:41 AM »
I have no issue with American imperialism.  If every Muslim nation needed to be leveled to be assured that terrorists were wiped out, then that is what is needed. 
Well damn, dude. Considering you were tossing the "evil" world around earlier, I think what you've shared here certainly qualifies.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2014, 06:39:20 AM »
I have no issue with American imperialism.  If every Muslim nation needed to be leveled to be assured that terrorists were wiped out, then that is what is needed. 
Well damn, dude. Considering you were tossing the "evil" world around earlier, I think what you've shared here certainly qualifies.

 :lol   

So because I want to see terrorism eradicated, that makes me evil?  I would say that an enemy made up of delusional extremists who are not afraid to die for their cause, who welcome death as a gateway to some higher state of being, who will blow themselves up for their cause no matter how many innocents they take out, are the very definition of evil.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2014, 06:42:47 AM »
So because I want to see terrorism eradicated, that makes me evil?
No, but the idea that the end justifies the means of such an extreme measure is certainly an idea I wouldn't object to calling evil.

I can't believe, after all this time, I still encounter people who essentially support the "turn the region into a parking lot" idea.

Offline bosk1

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2014, 06:52:06 AM »
And *I* can't believe someone who has been a member for so long and should know the rules better is resorting to personal attacks on another forum member.  Considering you were already banned from the site once and let back in on a "be on your best behavior" basis, I can only conclude you really don't care about following the rules here.  Goodbye.
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2014, 06:56:34 AM »
So because I want to see terrorism eradicated, that makes me evil?
No, but the idea that the end justifies the means of such an extreme measure is certainly an idea I wouldn't object to calling evil.

I can't believe, after all this time, I still encounter people who essentially support the "turn the region into a parking lot" idea.

If that's what it comes down to, then you would just say "fuck it, let them win?"  I'm saying that if that is what it comes to, the choice is pretty clear.  I don't think we should just go in there and wipe everything out just for fun, but eventually we are either going to give up and realize that only extreme measures will ultimately end terrorism or just keep fighting these endless wars.

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2014, 07:24:17 AM »
Okay, but we're way off topic now.  If you want to start a thread on U.S. foreign policy viz terrorism, go right ahead.  But that's not what this thread is about.  I get why you initially brought it up, but going any further down that road is a wild tangent.  Please stay on topic.
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2014, 07:40:21 AM »
No problem.

Does this count? 



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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2014, 07:58:04 AM »
You said his foreign policy was weak.  I said he's a weak leader.  Two different things.  While one might contribute to the other, they are not identical.

Agreed,  Obama is an empty suit with a completely different agenda for his presidency.  We all know his resume' is paper thin and what little we know about him is that his goals are to  level the playing field at home and abroad.  And to his credit he has been successful at both of those, abroad by default as his famous phrase "lead from behind" indicates.  Putin is a much smarter man and I'm sure he loses no sleep knowing the "leader" of the free world is a paper tiger.  Pretty much gives him carte blanche.  The Euroweenies are terrified of losing the gas and oil they depend on from Russia, so there won't be any fight there. 

And any comparisons of our military actions in the internal affairs of other nations and Russian (and soon to be Chinese) expansionism are bogus.  While we have make miscalculations, our intent was never domination.  Nation building yes.  And I am against that.  But the motivations are not comparable.
Putin's position as leader of one of the most powerful nations on Earth gives him carte blanche. It has nothing to do with who's leading America. You think any other president in the last 50 years would go to war with Russia over Ukraine? Never happen. I haven't seen what Obama's actions regarding this are so I'll reserve judgement. My only defense of him, which isn't really a defense at all, is that blaming him for the current situation is pretty fucking stupid.

And for the record, of course we're motivated by domination. Everything we (and Russia, and China) do is about domination. That needn't mean going all Napoleon on everybody. It only means being the most powerful nation on Earth, which is an aspiration that pretty much every world leader shares. Furthermore, when it comes to the last 15 years, the conservative playbook pretty much spells it out. The world will benefit from American values and leadership. Whether it's active or passive, that's domination.

Your post is indicative of the short-sightedness of most knee-jerk liberals.  Don't know if you fit in that category, but this is really not about this one incident.  It is about the standing and regard the rest of the world has for the US.  The reaction of the US to political/militaristic misdeeds by other countries is no longer much concern for the bad guys.  We (as a country) have managed our economy like a bunch of children with "birthday money" and even last week announced our intentions to down size our military.  The bad guys watch this stuff.

And I NEVER said go to war.  I refer to our perceived strength within the world community.  And Obama has done nothing but further weaken our standing.  It was one of his stated goals when elected.  You really think that was not a signal to the rest of the world that the US will be more likely to turn a blind eye to the activities of the thugs? What I would do:  Immediately reinstate our missile defense agreements with the Czech Repub and Poland.  I would publicly announce our intent to cancel our downsizing of the military and open the Keystone pipeline to show our intent to relieve our and our allies dependence of Arab/Russian oil and gas.  And the Russian economy is not that robust, there should be some united effort to pressure them economically.

Why do so many people not get the fact that human beings will NEVER sit down together and sing Kumbaya?  There will always be bad guys looking to increase power by aggressive acquisition.  And someone has to be there looking over their shoulder.  If you know your mom is watching, you just might decide not to sneak into the cookie jar.

And again, I am not into nation building and I think the general populace of the US including conservatives (which I am not) are starting to realize this.  But our intent in nation building was never to dominate and exploit, tax and rape human and natural resources.  If you think it is the same, tell that to the old member nations of the Soviet Union.  It might be the same to you but you never lived under the conditions imposed by malevolent expansionism.

Also, you have called me a bitter old bastard and now implied that I am fucking stupid.  I know you get a pass from the mods sometimes because of your post count and eloquence.  I take that as a sign you don't have much in the way of substance to rebut and have to resort to name calling. 

It is not about what O is going to do, but what he has done.  And in foreign policy he has done little and that vacuum of leadership is an open invitation to those who sit at bay waiting on the right opportunity to make their move. 

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Offline bosk1

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2014, 08:17:39 AM »
Your post is indicative of the short-sightedness of most knee-jerk liberals. 

Okay, stop right there.  This is nothing short of baiting.  Do NOT make sweeping judgments about entire groups of people in a derogatory way and attack someone's argument by lumping them in with the group.  We don't do that here.  Not only is it against forum rules, but it demonstrates VERY poor argument skills.  Knock that off.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2014, 08:31:20 AM »
And I NEVER said go to war.  I refer to our perceived strength within the world community.  And Obama has done nothing but further weaken our standing.  It was one of his stated goals when elected.  You really think that was not a signal to the rest of the world that the US will be more likely to turn a blind eye to the activities of the thugs? What I would do:  Immediately reinstate our missile defense agreements with the Czech Repub and Poland.  I would publicly announce our intent to cancel our downsizing of the military and open the Keystone pipeline to show our intent to relieve our and our allies dependence of Arab/Russian oil and gas.  And the Russian economy is not that robust, there should be some united effort to pressure them economically.

Why do so many people not get the fact that human beings will NEVER sit down together and sing Kumbaya?  There will always be bad guys looking to increase power by aggressive acquisition.  And someone has to be there looking over their shoulder.  If you know your mom is watching, you just might decide not to sneak into the cookie jar.

And again, I am not into nation building and I think the general populace of the US including conservatives (which I am not) are starting to realize this.  But our intent in nation building was never to dominate and exploit, tax and rape human and natural resources.  If you think it is the same, tell that to the old member nations of the Soviet Union.  It might be the same to you but you never lived under the conditions imposed by malevolent expansionism.
I note the word further in your post, yet you're making a concerted effort to dump this situation on Obama. Also, why is it that not meddling in the affairs of others seems to be a frequent talking point among the people on the right, until meddling suits their cause in which case we're pussies for not doing it. Quite frankly, pretty much this entire statement reeks of American exceptionalism. Another pillar of the conservative Republican movement you claim to not be a part of. Has it occurred to you that maybe it's America that represents thugs and bad guys? Much like creating degrees of harm done in our comparative attempts towards expansionism. "Well, we're not the same since we don't cause as much damage as the Soviets did when we do it." Really?

Quote
Also, you have called me a bitter old bastard and now implied that I am fucking stupid.  I know you get a pass from the mods sometimes because of your post count and eloquence.  I take that as a sign you don't have much in the way of substance to rebut and have to resort to name calling. 
If Bosk wants to chime in on whether or not I get a pass that's his purview. I couldn't tell you. I just assume I'm pretty good at walking a fine line. Though I will point out though that in the same post you say I implied you were stupid (and I don't think you are--just misguided) you made identical implications that I was vapid and childish which you didn't get warned over.  :lol
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2014, 08:45:16 AM »
Your post is indicative of the short-sightedness of most knee-jerk liberals. 

Okay, stop right there.  This is nothing short of baiting.  Do NOT make sweeping judgments about entire groups of people in a derogatory way and attack someone's argument by lumping them in with the group.  We don't do that here.  Not only is it against forum rules, but it demonstrates VERY poor argument skills.  Knock that off.

C'mon....this is too much fun!  When you get to go up against EB it is like fighting the "boss" on the last round of Mortal Kombat !
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Offline the Catfishman

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2014, 08:49:10 AM »
Nice that a thread about the Ukraine is filled with discussion about internal US politics.. which have nothing to do with the problems in the Ukraine.

Offline Dr. DTVT

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2014, 10:27:22 AM »
Nice that a thread about the Ukraine is filled with discussion about internal US politics.. which have nothing to do with the problems in the Ukraine.

I agree. I tried to take the discussion that direction, and all we got was one joke reply - but at least it was a good joke.