Author Topic: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.  (Read 9648 times)

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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #105 on: March 06, 2014, 09:14:16 AM »

Offline AngelBack

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #106 on: March 06, 2014, 10:25:32 AM »
Interesting development... 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26465962

Yeah, saw that. Possibilities 1) Coercion 2) CYA and punt it to the citizens or 3) legit ?

Doesn't DTF have any Ukrainian members?  Would love to hear from them and any Russian members.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #107 on: March 06, 2014, 10:52:07 AM »
Interesting development... 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26465962

Yeah, saw that. Possibilities 1) Coercion 2) CYA and punt it to the citizens or 3) legit ?

Doesn't DTF have any Ukrainian members?  Would love to hear from them and any Russian members.

I'm thinking Crimea wants to become more autonomous and secede from Ukraine.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 11:36:35 AM by Prog Snob »

Offline XJDenton

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #108 on: March 06, 2014, 11:12:22 AM »
Well its government certainly does. Establishment of a popular consensus would require a referendum which given the current political situation is not exactly likely to be reliable at this time.

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #109 on: March 06, 2014, 11:46:52 AM »
Well its government certainly does. Establishment of a popular consensus would require a referendum which given the current political situation is not exactly likely to be reliable at this time.
Right, but my question is does the current parliament have legitimacy? If they were duly elected by the citizenry, then that represents enough of a popular consensus to downgrade this thing from crisis status in the interim, IMO. If they're appointed puppets or shills, then that makes this a real problem for now. Perhaps a cooling off period would be in order followed by a referendum.

If the former is the case, that poses a completely different question of who to side with. A potentially marginalized minority, or the majority for the sake of all?
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Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #110 on: March 06, 2014, 12:20:57 PM »
I believe Crimea will go to the Russians, one way or another. If it doesn't then the Russian protesters will rebel again.

Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #111 on: March 06, 2014, 02:08:18 PM »
I met a girl from Moldova last night when I was out on the beach.  We have a lot of international travelers here where I live.  I have been a bit shocked over the last couple of days some of my 3rd party friends have been blindly supporting Putin, and the occupation of Ukraine, for no other reason than they just want to see Obama burn. Yet, when you meet someone who is actually from Eastern Europe they seem to be thankful for the US for stepping in to allow them to keep their own way of life that they very much value.  The external perspective she provided helped me understand how I am going to think about about all of this from here on out.

Historically, in terms of The US being "spreaders of democracy," supporting Putin, or rationalizing his actions in Ukraine, and what seems to be an attempt at a slow rebuild of communism and the former Soviet Union, would be like going back in time to fight against Joseph McCarthy's witch hunt against communism.  If we were, in fact, back in those days, and you were to support the Russian leader, you would be branded a communist and then excommunicated from your life and career. 

Moldova is a border country to Ukraine.  Her and I started talking about the relations between Russia and Ukraine.  She was supposed to go home last week but cancelled her flight and then rented an apartment here because she doesn't want to go home with Russian troops all over place.  She seemed to be fearful of going back to such a destabilized region.  She expressed that Moldova doesn't want Russia in Ukraine because whatever happens in Ukraine will spill into Moldova, and directly affect the politics and culture in her own country.  She went on to say that having Russia there is a big cultural change that none of them want i.e. getting new money, Russian troops all over the place, and being subject to Putin and his control over the media, and end to their own freedom.

I think, for The US, strategically, our best interest is not allowing Russia to slowly, and methodically rebuild The USSR.  In this case I do support President Obama, not because of any party affiliation, but because the events that happen in Ukraine could potentially ripple through Eastern Europe and create further destabilization thus allowing Putin to broaden his power base. 

Aside from the rhetoric that we are "fighting for democracy" the real truth is if you want to keep having the ability issue venomous opinions on any given subject, you would like to continue to think freely, without fear of being imprisoned for your ideologies and then being branded an enemy of the state, it's probably best that we, as Americans, not facilitate the growth of communism in Eastern Europe simply because we may or may not like the current president. 


« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 02:40:29 PM by MinistryOfLostSouls »

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #112 on: March 06, 2014, 02:20:51 PM »
A lot of interesting points there. One thing I will quickly throw out is that I don't think America has the deep seeded fear of Communism that we did in the 50's. I think we'd be a long way from McCarthyism if we were to head back to an expanding Soviet Bloc.

Furthermore, and sorry that this will be a tangent, as far as I'm concerned our Government has already found a replacement for the Red Menace in terrorism. Sure seems to me that we're already moving towards that paranoia of McCarthyism without needing any help from the Rooskies. Terrorism is much more frightening that what Russia's up to.
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Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #113 on: March 06, 2014, 02:52:47 PM »
A lot of interesting points there. One thing I will quickly throw out is that I don't think America has the deep seeded fear of Communism that we did in the 50's. I think we'd be a long way from McCarthyism if we were to head back to an expanding Soviet Bloc.

Furthermore, and sorry that this will be a tangent, as far as I'm concerned our Government has already found a replacement for the Red Menace in terrorism. Sure seems to me that we're already moving towards that paranoia of McCarthyism without needing any help from the Rooskies. Terrorism is much more frightening that what Russia's up to.

I agree.  I think, rather than the fear being communism, there have been people who have replaced "the looming menace that will destroy us all if we don't act like good party members" with the fear of terrorism and to a lesser extent socialism. 

While I have a certain distaste for Americans in general, because I have been doing social reform work for a couple of years, I do love my country, and the right afforded to me to express myself.  I would very much not like to lose it. 

All of that being said, regardless of the countries perception of what the biggest "evil" is, Ukraine could possibly have more strategic value than we are aware of. 

Or, this could be a giant wag the dog on Putins part because of some of the hits Russia has taken in the western media over it's stance on the LGBT community, it's shoddy construction and delivery of Olympic village and the opening ceremony, or the public admissions by their media representatives that they were monitoring Olymipics attendees and competitors in their showers, and even the Pussy Riot debacle.  What do you do when everyone is laughing at you?  Start a war. 

Geo-politics is massively complex.  With the media we have in The US you never know if what you are reading or watching is true. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 03:18:41 PM by MinistryOfLostSouls »

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #114 on: March 06, 2014, 05:21:59 PM »
Aside from the rhetoric that we are "fighting for democracy" the real truth is if you want to keep having the ability issue venomous opinions on any given subject, you would like to continue to think freely, without fear of being imprisoned for your ideologies and then being branded an enemy of the state, it's probably best that we, as Americans, not facilitate the growth of communism in Eastern Europe simply because we may or may not like the current president.
I guess this is the part that I'm curious about. That's why my reply was about McCarthyism. How exactly is it that you see a rebirth of the Soviet Union potentially degrading our freedoms here? As I alluded to earlier, I could see it being used as an excuse by scumbag politicians to curtail liberty, but they're already doing just fine with a much better cover than Godless Commie stooges. I'll also point out that Putin is pretty far removed from the socialist set. He seems about as ravenous a capitalist as you're likely to come across. I could certainly see Russian expansion creating other problems for us, but they're more economic in nature.

And yeah, those far'ners can be pretty damned enlightening to people willing to hear them, can't they.
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Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2014, 06:39:42 PM »
Aside from the rhetoric that we are "fighting for democracy" the real truth is if you want to keep having the ability issue venomous opinions on any given subject, you would like to continue to think freely, without fear of being imprisoned for your ideologies and then being branded an enemy of the state, it's probably best that we, as Americans, not facilitate the growth of communism in Eastern Europe simply because we may or may not like the current president.
I guess this is the part that I'm curious about. That's why my reply was about McCarthyism. How exactly is it that you see a rebirth of the Soviet Union potentially degrading our freedoms here? As I alluded to earlier, I could see it being used as an excuse by scumbag politicians to curtail liberty, but they're already doing just fine with a much better cover than Godless Commie stooges. I'll also point out that Putin is pretty far removed from the socialist set. He seems about as ravenous a capitalist as you're likely to come across. I could certainly see Russian expansion creating other problems for us, but they're more economic in nature.

And yeah, those far'ners can be pretty damned enlightening to people willing to hear them, can't they.

I guess it depends on your age.  If you are under but close to forty you remember the cold war.  If you are older than forty you lived in the cold war.  Some of our older US citizen base still remember the nuclear bombing rehearsals they had in school, and the fall out shelters built in people's back yards.  I know my high school was build with a special fourth floor with environmental cleaning equipment, and was designed as a large scale fall out shelter which could support life for several years inside the building, no windows.  Speaking in those terms the effects of the cold war on some of our psychology are very alive and well, today.

All of that being said, if we sit back and allow Russia to have small victories without being vigilant about one day you look up and Russia has rebuilt and is now a big giant muscle dude.  The US, arrogantly says, "Yo, Russia, do you even lift?"  Russia is just like BOOM, goes the nukes.  Do you think Putin is not out for global domination?  It takes time, sometimes generations. 

And yes, speaking with people from other countries will often reveal the sad truth that a lot of countries view The US as the big giant giant dude at the party who thinks he is funny and cool but no one will tell him he isn't because he will pummel them.  I really don't like being considered the world's uneducated muscle douche but that, sadly, is how we are really viewed. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2014, 07:25:30 PM »
I do remember the cold war, and I know that it was unfounded paranoia based on misconceptions and propaganda then and would be now, although with less impact. While Putin is certainly interested in world domination, the truth is that we all are; hell, I'd put half the posters in this sub-forum up against the wall given the authority I feel I deserve. US presidents and Soviet premiers have all been similarly motivated, but alas it's not about the desire for power in as much as it is the condition of being completely batshit insane that creates the risk, and those types don't usually ascent to positions of national leadership. The extent of Putin's violent tendencies would be about the same as our own; content to knock off small countries as needed to prop up national interests.

As it relates to the current "crisis" (to appease Bosk and The Catfishman), it might well be the case that Vlad aspires to regain the past glory of Soviet Russia, but quite honestly that doesn't trouble me much. More important to me is the will of the people(s) effected. If the current parliament calling for rejoining Russia lawfully represents the people, then I've got no problem with it.
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Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #117 on: March 06, 2014, 07:58:18 PM »
I do remember the cold war, and I know that it was unfounded paranoia based on misconceptions and propaganda then and would be now, although with less impact. While Putin is certainly interested in world domination, the truth is that we all are; hell, I'd put half the posters in this sub-forum up against the wall given the authority I feel I deserve. US presidents and Soviet premiers have all been similarly motivated, but alas it's not about the desire for power in as much as it is the condition of being completely batshit insane that creates the risk, and those types don't usually ascent to positions of national leadership. The extent of Putin's violent tendencies would be about the same as our own; content to knock off small countries as needed to prop up national interests.

As it relates to the current "crisis" (to appease Bosk and The Catfishman), it might well be the case that Vlad aspires to regain the past glory of Soviet Russia, but quite honestly that doesn't trouble me much. More important to me is the will of the people(s) effected. If the current parliament calling for rejoining Russia lawfully represents the people, then I've got no problem with it.

Apparently it troubles our government, who has access to far more information than you or I, enough to order sanctions.  That fact alone shows me there is some form of culpable risk.  As far as what trouble you, unless you are like the girl I met last night, who can't return to her home country for fear of getting involved in conflict, why should you be concerned?

I'm concerned only because I saw the pain that girls eyes.  She really wants to see her family.  Her story is more revealing than any concern anyone outside of the situation could ever have. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #118 on: March 06, 2014, 08:29:46 PM »
More important to me is the will of the people(s) effected.
If your new friend is genuinely effected then I'm sympathetic to her situation. That doesn't mean that I think she's necessarily right, though. Sadly, not everybody gets to have what they want happen all the time. What I don't care about is Soviet expansion because it's automatically perceived as bad news for us. Nor must it automatically be bad news for it's members as seen by the fact that plenty of Ukrainians seem to prefer Russian rule to European marginalization. 

And the fact that our government thinks it's a big deal means so little to me that it's actually a negative function. If our government is acting as if this is a bad thing, then I'm probably more inclined to think that Putin's actions are valid. Keep in mind that our government is manned entirely by self-serving ass-hats. For every situation that may occur there will be half who see it as an impending disaster and half who can't wait for it to come to pass so as to deliver us to the promised land. The truth is usually neither, and I suspect that's the case here, as well.
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Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #119 on: March 07, 2014, 01:43:12 AM »
More important to me is the will of the people(s) effected.
... the fact that plenty of Ukrainians seem to prefer Russian rule to European marginalization.

Could you please provide me the source for this fact that is not from a politically biased media source? i.e. raw survey data


Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #120 on: March 07, 2014, 08:10:18 AM »
More important to me is the will of the people(s) effected.
... the fact that plenty of Ukrainians seem to prefer Russian rule to European marginalization.

Could you please provide me the source for this fact that is not from a politically biased media source? i.e. raw survey data
Sorry, I meant Crimeans. And I was basing that on the fact that they tend to largely be ethnic Russians and seem to have elected a parliament that favors joining Russia. And I'm certainly not positive what the popular opinion is, which is a question I raised a while back. Just theorizing based on what we see from here.
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Offline Dr. DTVT

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #121 on: March 07, 2014, 12:06:24 PM »
Just the Eastern part of Ukraine is mostly Russian, and that is also the only part that is being occupied.  The Crimean parliament passed a bill that will recommend  joining Russia if it passes a public referendum.  The will of the people IS going to be voiced.  One of the things that a lot of people are forgetting is that long before any of this went down, the Russian heavy states had their own parliament in Ukraine to pass their own laws.  If anything, the events are unfolding very much the way one would like them to.  No war, no sacrificed lives, and the people are being given the opportunity to let their voice be heard in a mandate.  This isn't politicians deciding for the people, it's politicians letting the people decide.  All of this probably would have happened even if Russia didn't send troops, but Putin felt that without protection, a public referendum might have been interfered with by the EU favoring new government.
     

Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #122 on: March 07, 2014, 06:14:17 PM »
Just the Eastern part of Ukraine is mostly Russian, and that is also the only part that is being occupied.  The Crimean parliament passed a bill that will recommend  joining Russia if it passes a public referendum.  The will of the people IS going to be voiced.  One of the things that a lot of people are forgetting is that long before any of this went down, the Russian heavy states had their own parliament in Ukraine to pass their own laws.  If anything, the events are unfolding very much the way one would like them to.  No war, no sacrificed lives, and the people are being given the opportunity to let their voice be heard in a mandate.  This isn't politicians deciding for the people, it's politicians letting the people decide.  All of this probably would have happened even if Russia didn't send troops, but Putin felt that without protection, a public referendum might have been interfered with by the EU favoring new government.

But it's not the new government, correct?  It's the old leader back in power after the person who overthrew them and jailed her and now has been ousted himself and the original leader is now in charge again.  That's how I understood the situation to be.

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #123 on: March 07, 2014, 10:56:38 PM »
The pro-Russian president fled, and a pro-EU Eastern Ukrainian is now in power.
     

Offline the Catfishman

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #124 on: March 07, 2014, 11:04:07 PM »
I'm guessing you mean Tymoshenko, but no, she is not in power at the moment. She was indeed prisoned and is now released but not part of any government at the moment.

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #125 on: March 08, 2014, 07:33:04 AM »
Regarding the leveling a Muslim country post:

Imagine you were going to find out that you were gonna die soon because there were a few terrorists in your country. Would you feel that is justified?

Just thinking out loud here, interesting...

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #126 on: March 17, 2014, 06:51:05 AM »
Well, the Crimea Parliament have now formally asked to join Russia...

Not really sure what to think of this.

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #127 on: March 17, 2014, 08:26:45 AM »
Well, it remains to be seen what happens with Ukraine but all in all I don't have much of a problem with this. I definitely don't see this as anything that should trouble us.
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #128 on: March 17, 2014, 09:43:33 AM »
Yeah, if Crimea votes to join Russia, and Russia wants Crimea, what's the problem?  Why is it any of our business?
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #129 on: March 17, 2014, 11:22:15 AM »
Yeah, if Crimea votes to join Russia, and Russia wants Crimea, what's the problem?  Why is it any of our business?
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #130 on: March 17, 2014, 11:27:01 AM »
Yeah, if Crimea votes to join Russia, and Russia wants Crimea, what's the problem?  Why is it any of our business?

Let's change the words a bit:

"Yeah, if Virginia wants to join the Confederacy, and the Confederacy wants Virginia, what's the problem?  Why is it any of our business."

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Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #131 on: March 17, 2014, 11:45:45 AM »
Yeah, if Crimea votes to join Russia, and Russia wants Crimea, what's the problem?  Why is it any of our business?

Let's change the words a bit:

"Yeah, if Virginia wants to join the Confederacy, and the Confederacy wants Virginia, what's the problem?  Why is it any of our business."

Nation states don't want their individual provinces getting the idea that they can self-determine their own status.
But it's still none of our business. If you want to make the point that it's none of Russia's business either, okayfine.  As for the civil war analogy (which is quite apt, IMO), it's a matter of debate as to whether or not that was the right thing to do. We had a thread here a while back about what the inevitable outcome would have been if the South had been allowed to secede, and the consensus is that the confederacy wouldn't have stood and we'd be 50 states by now anyway; just without the deaths of a half million soldiers. Ukrainians have already demonstrated their willingness to kill each other over this, so if both sides can get what they want isn't that really better than a forced sovereignty?
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #132 on: March 17, 2014, 12:22:29 PM »
But it's still none of our business.

I totally agree.

Quote
If you want to make the point that it's none of Russia's business either, okayfine.

It's also not their business.

Quote
Ukrainians have already demonstrated their willingness to kill each other over this, so if both sides can get what they want isn't that really better than a forced sovereignty?

The problem is that there's both ego and oil on the line, which is a bad combination.  Russia wants a win over the west.  The west wants a win over Russia and to preserve their ability to buy sweet, sweet Russian oil.

It's all ultimately a pissing contest.  None of this will actually matter in 6-12 months unless either side is stupid enough to start a war.  Fortunately, the American people seem highly opposed to it, and Putin doesn't want to get into a conflict he'd lose.
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #133 on: March 18, 2014, 10:45:46 PM »
It's all ultimately a pissing contest.  None of this will actually matter in 6-12 months unless either side is stupid enough to start a war.  Fortunately, the American people seem highly opposed to it, and Putin doesn't want to get into a conflict he'd lose.

I dunno...the Red Scare may be over, but I've met and heard plenty of people who'd love to give "those dern Commies" a can of W.A. because Murika.
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #134 on: March 18, 2014, 11:29:17 PM »
It's all ultimately a pissing contest.  None of this will actually matter in 6-12 months unless either side is stupid enough to start a war.  Fortunately, the American people seem highly opposed to it, and Putin doesn't want to get into a conflict he'd lose.

I dunno...the Red Scare may be over, but I've met and heard plenty of people who'd love to give "those dern Commies" a can of W.A. because Murika.

Well, that's just because America has a hero complex, believing that the world would collapse into a totalitarian, anti-Christian Dark Age if the Pax Americana were not in place to make the planet safe and secure for God-fearing folk.  In order to be a hero, you need to have villain, and whether it's the Russians, the Chinese, the Muslims or whoever, America will paint them up as Hitler reincarnated if it helps make the US look like the defender of liberty and justice by comparison.

Offline soundgarden

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2014, 11:07:43 AM »
It's all ultimately a pissing contest.  None of this will actually matter in 6-12 months unless either side is stupid enough to start a war.  Fortunately, the American people seem highly opposed to it, and Putin doesn't want to get into a conflict he'd lose.

I dunno...the Red Scare may be over, but I've met and heard plenty of people who'd love to give "those dern Commies" a can of W.A. because Murika.

Well, that's just because America has a hero complex, believing that the world would collapse into a totalitarian, anti-Christian Dark Age if the Pax Americana were not in place to make the planet safe and secure for God-fearing folk.  In order to be a hero, you need to have villain, and whether it's the Russians, the Chinese, the Muslims or whoever, America will paint them up as Hitler reincarnated if it helps make the US look like the defender of liberty and justice by comparison.


I was talking with a friend the other day on qualities of empires throughout history.  Aside from a very strong, respected, funded, military tradition we noted that empires always has to have an enemy; real or imagined. Now America isn't an empire technically; but it exhibits much of their superpower qualities... 

I wonder if any superpower can exist without these qualities; among others.  Its been the same before America with every nation/people with dominant power...


Offline Super Dude

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #136 on: March 19, 2014, 04:45:11 PM »
It's a thing of human nature, unfortunately. It's much easier to support your side when there's another "side." Recall how NATO was created, and the League of Nations. Heck, even political parties work that way. If someday there's some United World Order or some shit like that, we'll probably have united because we've found aliens and we've decided to kill them.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #137 on: March 19, 2014, 05:01:53 PM »
If someday there's some United World Order or some shit like that, we'll probably have united because we've found aliens and we've decided to kill them.

I... have to agree.

Whatever.  We just have to hope humanity keeps evolving.  Imagine if this had happened during the cold war.  Either Russia would have simply taken over the Ukraine or there'd be a nuclear war.  What's happening right now is dramatic, but basically a small scale land grab.  The world is less violent than it's ever been, not more.
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Offline jsem

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #138 on: March 20, 2014, 09:35:01 AM »
Yeah, if Crimea votes to join Russia, and Russia wants Crimea, what's the problem?  Why is it any of our business?
It creates a precedent where a lot of other provinces in many countries may want to break apart and join Russia too. Many areas in the eastern parts of the Baltic states, in Belarus, in Moldova and even in Central Asia may want to join Russia too.

Crimea has a special place in Russian history though, compared to many of the other places where the Russians started mass populating the place only after World War II and the annexation of many of the states into the Soviet Union. So Russia may not push as hard for annexing those regions, because they don't have the same history of having been Russian.

One of the concerns in Crimea though is the treatment of Tatars. They were forcefully put on Crimea in the first place during Soviet rule, and could be severely mistreated, but you're right in that Crimea largely wants Russia.


Russia set a new precedent with this referendum. Previously, the precedent had pretty much been what had been set in the Åland crisis.

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« Reply #139 on: March 21, 2014, 04:03:45 PM »
Question - Does anyone believe the succession referendum is legitimate?  Anyone?  The results look like they're from an Iraqi election when Saddam Hussein was in power.

That's part of the problem right there.  We can't actually know what the Crimeans want.  Polls taken before the referendum consistently showed that less than 50% of Crimeans wanted to join Russia.  That number didn't magically swing to 97%.

Also, I know I'm godwinning here, but right now Putin's using Hitler's pre-Poland WWII playbook.  Make little land grabs based on ethnic pretenses to see what you can get away with.  I'd prefer the U.S. just let this be, but if it's too easy for Putin then all the sudden he might try taking a NATO country, and then we're almost obligated to go to war.
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