Author Topic: The Minimum Wage debate  (Read 7632 times)

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Offline Lucien

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #175 on: December 01, 2016, 11:27:35 PM »
don't worry, the free market will save everything, our wondrous leader donald trump will get rid of all the crooked regulations on the housing market so that companies can compete and make house prices lower

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #176 on: December 02, 2016, 09:55:13 AM »
don't worry, the free market will save everything, our wondrous leader donald trump will get rid of all the crooked regulations on the housing market so that companies can compete and make house prices lower

 ::)


Exactly!  Finally!  You're coming around, Lucien!  Glad to see it. 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #177 on: December 02, 2016, 09:58:13 AM »
lol

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #178 on: December 02, 2016, 11:07:35 AM »
I know I have no evidence to support this and am bringing this down to a micro viewpoint, but would not a minimum wage hike drive all wages up or leave many current employees disgruntled?

Suppose you are an employee in a semi-skilled/skilled position, currently making $15/hour. The minimum wage gets hiked to $15/hour. Are you going to be happy with your pay now? You have a degree, you have skills, and now everyone is making the same as you are, effectively lowering your value. So these people go to their bosses and demand more. They get bumped. Now the second grade pay people want a pay raise too, and so on... In effect, the between in comes is still the same, the number just got larger.

The reason I ask this is because those are the same thoughts that ran through my head not so long ago. I was right out of college and this debate had just started. Right from school, I got a job at a CAD firm for $15/hour. While it wasn't what I called a high-skill job, plenty of skill was still required in order to complete the tasks at hand. A wage hike to that amount would have sent me to my bosses office, asking for more. And if he said no? I could quit and work at a Fast Food place and make the same amount.

Offline orcus116

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #179 on: December 02, 2016, 05:24:31 PM »
I'm in an engineering field and while I do feel the same about the value of my job from a purely emotional standpoint I realize that these are completely different markets so they're not really relatable. Working with CAD drafters myself I definitely respect the skill involved but unfortunately you and I can't just go into our bosses office without getting a blank stare because what happens in the fast food industry or similar unskilled industry has no bearing on the wages we get. Rationally speaking we'd have a good point with regards to the value of skill just as a raw thing but it's an uphill battle against the groups of people that refuse to understand the basic idea that fast food and similar industries are not supposed to be a career. I hate to sound intolerant towards people who seem to struggle and can only perform at the unskilled jobs but in my mind the idea they're suddenly owed more money for services that don't demand that level of income is absurd, living expenses and bills be damned.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #180 on: December 06, 2016, 10:29:52 AM »
I know I have no evidence to support this and am bringing this down to a micro viewpoint, but would not a minimum wage hike drive all wages up or leave many current employees disgruntled?

Suppose you are an employee in a semi-skilled/skilled position, currently making $15/hour. The minimum wage gets hiked to $15/hour. Are you going to be happy with your pay now? You have a degree, you have skills, and now everyone is making the same as you are, effectively lowering your value. So these people go to their bosses and demand more. They get bumped. Now the second grade pay people want a pay raise too, and so on... In effect, the between in comes is still the same, the number just got larger.

The reason I ask this is because those are the same thoughts that ran through my head not so long ago. I was right out of college and this debate had just started. Right from school, I got a job at a CAD firm for $15/hour. While it wasn't what I called a high-skill job, plenty of skill was still required in order to complete the tasks at hand. A wage hike to that amount would have sent me to my bosses office, asking for more. And if he said no? I could quit and work at a Fast Food place and make the same amount.

You're essentially right, that the artificial raising of wages for let's call them "lesser" skills will serve to dumb down the marketplace. 

But there is a dynamic element to your analysis; there would be chaos for a time as the system moves to a sort of equilibrium, and people would move to the "lesser" job for the same pay, but I guarantee you that that equilibrium would have some form of managers running the cash registers, or automated dispensers for the food.  So those people will be doubly fucked; they will be out of a job, they will have lost their "skilled" job, and we hope their skills wouldn't have atrophied in the process.

Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #181 on: December 07, 2016, 02:12:06 PM »
I'm in an engineering field and while I do feel the same about the value of my job from a purely emotional standpoint I realize that these are completely different markets so they're not really relatable. Working with CAD drafters myself I definitely respect the skill involved but unfortunately you and I can't just go into our bosses office without getting a blank stare because what happens in the fast food industry or similar unskilled industry has no bearing on the wages we get. Rationally speaking we'd have a good point with regards to the value of skill just as a raw thing but it's an uphill battle against the groups of people that refuse to understand the basic idea that fast food and similar industries are not supposed to be a career. I hate to sound intolerant towards people who seem to struggle and can only perform at the unskilled jobs but in my mind the idea they're suddenly owed more money for services that don't demand that level of income is absurd, living expenses and bills be damned.

This, I believe is very true, and it is likely a truth that many people do not want to hear. With such a raise of the wage, we have effectively said that every job is a career/life. But is it really in terms of service provided? Are we saying that the output of every job is equal food, clothing, living space, healthcare and transportation? Or only some of them? If so, which ones? In my mind, the answer is no.

You're essentially right, that the artificial raising of wages for let's call them "lesser" skills will serve to dumb down the marketplace. 

But there is a dynamic element to your analysis; there would be chaos for a time as the system moves to a sort of equilibrium, and people would move to the "lesser" job for the same pay, but I guarantee you that that equilibrium would have some form of managers running the cash registers, or automated dispensers for the food.  So those people will be doubly fucked; they will be out of a job, they will have lost their "skilled" job, and we hope their skills wouldn't have atrophied in the process.

Yes, and of course, once all that hits, I would expect to hear a lot of, "We have to fix this problem! Inequality! Unfair!" The very problem that was created by the solution to begin with.

Want to speed up automation? Raise the minimum wage to absurd amounts. Just beware and don't cry out when it happens.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #182 on: December 07, 2016, 02:51:59 PM »
That's the American way, though, isn't it?   Beg for something, and then when you get it, complain about it.  :)  That's why they invented the "Comments" section for websites.

Offline 7th

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #183 on: December 09, 2016, 02:23:38 PM »
The elasticity between wages and inflation is the problem.  Minimum wage goes up, everything else goes up making the new minimum wage as inadequate as the old minimum wage, but then the people who made more their wage value is effectively less (as I believe someone already mentioned).  So, the way to make it so someone who flips burgers or cleans hotel rooms can actually survive on their wages is to bring inflation down to reasonable levels.  $5 cups of coffee, $65k pickup trucks, and $1M urban apartments in shitty neighborhoods do not indicate a healthy economy, they are signs of a failing economy (the currency has little value).  In order for a person to have a baseline existence on the lowest of wages the value of the dollar must go way up from where it is today.  Cup of coffee $0.50, pickup truck $6500, apartment $35k to own/$325 to rent.  That's about how the economy was when I started my first job at just above minimum wage for the time and I lived quite well.  Bought a bass and amp, a beat up car, had some roommates but lived in a proper house, never worried much about money.  I think our electric bill came in at around $15 a month for three people in a three bedroom house.  Funny, looking back I never had money worries until I started making lots of money.  That is the other wisdom>knowledge aspect to this.  Raising minimum wage may contribute to overspending and debt accrual leading to depression and ultimately a less enjoyable life.         
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #184 on: December 11, 2016, 09:21:38 AM »
I'm pretty sure basically every economist thinks that a small amount of inflation is good for the economy. And inflation has been pretty low for quite a while. The problem comes in when wages don't match inflation, which they haven't, at least for those on the low end, in a long, long time.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: The Minimum Wage debate
« Reply #185 on: December 11, 2016, 12:36:00 PM »
I'm pretty sure basically every economist thinks that a small amount of inflation is good for the economy. And inflation has been pretty low for quite a while. The problem comes in when wages don't match inflation, which they haven't, at least for those on the low end, in a long, long time.

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