Power Metal

[TAC]

I agree with pretty much everything posted after the Motley Crue influenced Power Metal bit 

Buuut, I don't think Painkiller was necesarily a reaction to how soft JP had become because apart from the keyboards/guitar synths its essentially the same style they had been doing post Sad Wings. JP were never very heavy at all (DotF excepted). I think it was more a reaction to how metal was going and an attempt to stay current. As was Alice's raise Your fist and every album after that.

Except that in 1990/91, bands released less harder albums, like Metallica, Slayer, Maiden, Queensryche.

Maybe soft wasn't the best word, but I firmly believe Priest was out to make a statement with Painkiller.
I know Priest were never that heavy, but Turbo and ram It down were clearly steps back for the band.

[Lowdz]

I agree with pretty much everything posted after the Motley Crue influenced Power Metal bit 

Buuut, I don't think Painkiller was necesarily a reaction to how soft JP had become because apart from the keyboards/guitar synths its essentially the same style they had been doing post Sad Wings. JP were never very heavy at all (DotF excepted). I think it was more a reaction to how metal was going and an attempt to stay current. As was Alice's raise Your fist and every album after that.

Except that in 1990/91, bands released less harder albums, like Metallica, Slayer, Maiden, Queensryche.

Maybe soft wasn't the best word, but I firmly believe Priest was out to make a statement with Painkiller.
I know Priest were never that heavy, but Turbo and ram It down were clearly steps back for the band.

Maybe but Rob was getting into heavier stuff at that time, hence the split soon after. And they'd already tried that approach with little success.

And Turbo and RiD - there's one excellent 80s album in there.

[wolfking]

I like both of them.  Ram it Down is excellent.

[TAC]

I agree with pretty much everything posted after the Motley Crue influenced Power Metal bit 

Buuut, I don't think Painkiller was necesarily a reaction to how soft JP had become because apart from the keyboards/guitar synths its essentially the same style they had been doing post Sad Wings. JP were never very heavy at all (DotF excepted). I think it was more a reaction to how metal was going and an attempt to stay current. As was Alice's raise Your fist and every album after that.

Except that in 1990/91, bands released less harder albums, like Metallica, Slayer, Maiden, Queensryche.

Maybe soft wasn't the best word, but I firmly believe Priest was out to make a statement with Painkiller.
I know Priest were never that heavy, but Turbo and ram It down were clearly steps back for the band.

Maybe but Rob was getting into heavier stuff at that time, hence the split soon after. And they'd already tried that approach with little success.

And Turbo and RiD - there's one excellent 80s album in there.

Right, who could forget Fight? I actually saw them live opening for Anthrax.

Ram It Down is OK.

[gazinwales]

Gents excellent discussion going on here, really enjoying the differing opinions and thoughts on this great genre of 

JP I was massive on them the in the mid 1980's (showing my age here).
Although they were the classic metal at the time, they were never afraid to experiment and try new and different things.
Some worked and some bombed, I did like Turbo, I loved the guitar synth's.

[TAC]

Yeah Turbo was a sign of the times. I think Maiden was far more successful with their synth work on Somewhere In Time.

It is funny, but I'm not a huge Priest guy. Never really have been. Not sure why. I'll say that I  a victim of the misconception that they were a one dimensional band. They have tons of variety in their music. It really goes to
show how badly Dave Holland held them back.

[Perpetual Change]

Do Tyr count as power metal? Wikipedia says "Viking" metal.

I don't listen to much power metal anymore, but their new album Valkrja is addictive.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I think they're basically power metal. They probably have some obscure genre like folk-viking-symphoniccore, but they sound like power metal to me.

[NotePad]

(Listening to a song off Nostradamus....did Halford just say queef?)

Yes, Helloween really does not get enough credit. They get credit of course, but certainly not enough. It is definitely a very important development in metal and rock those keepers albums. Maybe it's just that here in north america no one is aware. I realize Helloween is very popular in some other countries, as with power metal in general. But if one were to say they were to power metal what Metallica was to thrash, they would not be wrong.

And Kai Hansen is often considered the godfather of power metal. I also think that's bullshit. Look at the song Michael Weikath wrote on those albums, i actually like them a lot more. Eagle Fly Free is a power metal classic. I think he should be getting just as much attention as Kai Hansen. Maybe it's cuz he's not as charismatic on stage? And although i prefer Deris, i was watching a couple bootlegs from a keepers tour and one from a pink bubbles tour, and i have to admit Kiske has more natural talent then Deris. Live he could effortlessly hit any note. He was also very charismatic like Deris on stage. I do think it's a shame cuz they seemed to be on the verge of huge success and popularity until pink bubbles. I agree with Roland Grapow, who said that Helloween could have been as big as Metallica if they continued in the direction of Keepers. But the thing is, i prefer Deris much much more. Better for so many reasons, but this ISN'T THE HELLOWEEN THREAD SO I WILL SHUT UP!

I'm actually becoming quite fond of BG's Night At The Opera Album.

[gazinwales]

I did a phone interview with Kai for the Majestic album and I asked him about being the grandfather of power metal, he kind of laughed it off, made light of it.
But I firmly believe that he probably is.
You need to remember that after the 2 classic Keeper albums, there was a huge backlash against Helloween for Cameleon and Pink Bubbles albums.
A lot of fans felt let down and even betrayed that Helloween could put out two relatively stinking turds (although there are a few gems).

Kai upped and left put out the first Gamma Ray album and restored a lot of lost credibility with that album and subsequent tour.
While Kiske also left Helloween, who found a new singer, but they had a pretty hostile time accepting Deris and his first album with them.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Yeah, Kai definitely deserves his reputation as the main progenitor of power metal.

[wolfking]

I did a phone interview with Kai for the Majestic album

Wow, cool shit.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Tiluland - Tilu Of The Kings

Pretty cool even though there's no vocals. So if you have a thing against high pitched vocals, this might be for you. I sincerly hope you don't but I don't know you and you don't know me so yea.....

Man you can't other than smile when hearing music like this, whatever the reason my be. 

[NotePad]

Well i can see why Kai Hansen very often gets that title, and Michael Weikath never does. He was the lead guitarist and one of the 2 main songwriters in the band during what is considered their best albums/years, and after he left the band did 2 albums people considered shit, then went on to create Gamma Ray (which IMO is not a very good band, but that's just me. With a different singer i think Gamma Ray would sound SOOOOOOOO much better.).

So i see why so many name Hansen godfather and not Weikath. of course Helloween as a band also has this title, but individually Weikath never gets this title, and i strongly believe that is BS. Weikath and Hansen were both lead guitarists and the main songwriters on those albums. From those albums they BOTH individually have hit/classic songs credited to them. I actually prefer Wikath's songs more too. But because of how their history played out with Helloween doing 2 CDs fans hated after Hansen left and went on to create the popular Gamma Ray, Hansen is the one who gets singled out.

But i will admit that these days Weikath is pretty lazy. For the last few albums he's only been contributing 1 or 2 songs. Helloween is a band that writes songs individually so this matters. Usually, like on Legacy, he writes one song that's more classic rock oriented and a one that's more power metal and faster, usually with a big anthem-like chorus. He''s gotten lazy and let's Andi write most of the songs. Gerstner's not a bad songwriter but not as good at writing as Grapow was. I'm happy that since Rabbit, Marcus Groskoff has been writing more songs and actually getting them on the official album. So Weikath doesn't have to try as hard, but it would be nice. On the newest record the songs he wrote were amazing, especially Burning Sun which is like a Keeper song and even better. I'v always said that if Helloween ACTUALLY wants to write an album that is musically similar to Keepers, then let Weiki do most of the songwriting.

[Lowdz]

Tiluland - Tilu Of The Kings

Pretty cool even though there's no vocals. So if you have a thing against high pitched vocals, this might be for you. I sincerly hope you don't but I don't know you and you don't know me so yea.....

Man you can't other than smile when hearing music like this, whatever the reason my be. 

Yeah I like this. Checked it out after someone posted it in the "what album are you listening to" thread. Maybe you? Thanks for recommending it.

[wolfking]

Gamma Ray (which IMO is not a very good band, but that's just me. With a different singer i think Gamma Ray would sound SOOOOOOOO much better.).

I rate Gamma Ray higher than Helloween personally.  What Kai did with Land of the Free, Space, Powerplant and No World Order is just untouchable.  You should check the first three albums with Ralf Scheepers, especially Insanity and Genius.

[TAC]

Gamma Ray is fuc#ing incredible. But while he had gotten better, I'm not a huge fan of Kai's vocals. Gamma Ray would be so much better with Kiske. But then again so would every band!

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I actually prefer Kai in Gamma Ray. He's not as polished, but I think that adds a lot to Gamma Ray.

[wolfking]

Gamma Ray is fuc#ing incredible. But while he had gotten better, I'm not a huge fan of Kai's vocals. Gamma Ray would be so much better with Kiske. But then again so would every band!

I think through the late ninties and the 2000's, Kai was the better choice for the material, but these days, I think it would be good if Kiske joined.

I watched an interview when Unisonic was getting released with Hansen and this was actually discussed between Kiske and Hansen.  They were contemplating either starting a new project or in fact Kiske joining Gamma Ray.  So it nearly happened.

[gazinwales]

NotePad:
MW was portrayed as the bad guy during the break, Kiske getting fired, Kai leaving and most of all, Ingo's leaving and subsequent suicide.
Now I don't know how old you are? Are you getting all your info from Wiki/elsewhere, or did you live through the events of those particular times?
For old Helloween fans like myself, the almost soap opera events that surrounded the band for a few years, still linger on.
Regardless, from my own memory I saw MW as the bad guy, with Helloween getting a vastly inferior singer to replace Kiske.

As for Kai singing, he has got a lot better over the years (despite being a smoker), I've seen Gamma Ray live a couple of times and he sounded even
better than the studio albums.
Deris for me has always been an average singer, with a voice more suited to his previous band Pink Cream 69 more AOR and melodic rock sounds.

[TAC]

NotePad:
MW was portrayed as the bad guy during the break, Kiske getting fired, Kai leaving and most of all, Ingo's leaving and subsequent suicide.
Now I don't know how old you are? Are you getting all your info from Wiki/elsewhere, or did you live through the events of those particular times?
For old Helloween fans like myself, the almost soap opera events that surrounded the band for a few years, still linger on.
Regardless, from my own memory I saw MW as the bad guy, with Helloween getting a vastly inferior singer to replace Kiske.

As for Kai singing, he has got a lot better over the years (despite being a smoker), I've seen Gamma Ray live a couple of times and he sounded even
better than the studio albums.
Deris for me has always been an average singer, with a voice more suited to his previous band Pink Cream 69 more AOR and melodic rock sounds.

Gaz, if you check the Helloween thread, I asked Notepad the same question. Let's just say that we are much older than him!

I'm with you on how I viewed Weiki. Even during the Keepers era, the band came off as kind of goofy. Weiki was usually the one making the silly faces. I thought it was a mistake to let Hansen go, and then of course Kiske. The turmoil around the Chameleon album was clear upon the first listen.

To me, no one was going to replace Kiske. When Deris first joined, I ordered both CD singles (Perfect Gentleman and Mr Ego) and thought they were terrible. I gave up on Helloween at that point. Too bad because I absolutely loved them at the time. I remember when Time Of The Oath came out, I thought jeez, this looks cool, but I just couldn't pull the trigger.
Oddly, when they released Rabbit Don't Come Easy, I decided to give them a chance..oops, wrong album.
In the last year and a half, I've gone back and rediscovered the Deris era, and I really have taken to it. He's a remarkably versatile singer. I'm not in love with all of it, but I have found the whole exercise very rewarding.

Gamma Ray is fuc#ing incredible. But while he had gotten better, I'm not a huge fan of Kai's vocals. Gamma Ray would be so much better with Kiske. But then again so would every band!

I think through the late ninties and the 2000's, Kai was the better choice for the material, but these days, I think it would be good if Kiske joined.

I watched an interview when Unisonic was getting released with Hansen and this was actually discussed between Kiske and Hansen.  They were contemplating either starting a new project or in fact Kiske joining Gamma Ray.  So it nearly happened.

Kiske and Hansen have been teasing us for a while now. Weren't they supposed to start a project, which ended up with Kiske releasing Past In Different Ways?
Plus, Hansen joined Unisonic after the fact. I think he gave them a shot in the arm, but weren't the Unisonic guys complaining about playing the fast Helloween tunes live?


Oh, and let's hear it for Marcus Grosskopf, one of metal's best bassisits!!

[gazinwales]

No I haven't checked the Helloween thread and TBH I am not remotely interested in them 
Yup I figured he is probably half my age (45).

Yes Kai and Kiske have been dangling the carrot for a while, let;s hope they end up in the right place together 

[wolfking]

TAC, no idea about Unisonic not wanting to play the faster Helloween songs, could be true.

Also, you're right I forgot that Hansen joined Unisonic afterwards.  I believe they wanted to work together, but Kai felt putting Kiske out the front of Gamma Ray wouldn't sound and feel right after him being the singer for so long.  The only other option at that point was for Hansen to join Unisonic.  I guess the other guys wouldn't have complained, but there has been talk about a follow up album, but I'd really be surprised if that actually happens.

[TAC]

TAC, no idea about Unisonic not wanting to play the faster Helloween songs, could be true.

https://www.bravewords.com/news/194699

https://www.bravewords.com/news/195534

[gazinwales]

How good does Kiske sound on I Want Out?
After all these years and all the shit, sounds amazing.

[wolfking]

I'll read those articles later.

But yeah, the live versions I heard of I Want Out were quite flawless.

[NotePad]

I'm not really into Gamma Ray, but from what i hear and read they seem to be the one band in the world that wouldn't disappoint fans if they replace Kai on vocals. Especially with Kiske.

And the age difference here, well, that just goes to show how a new fans view on Helloween differs from an older fans

Actually some of the early Deris songs arn't that great to my ears. I AM NOT a fan of Perfect Gentleman. If i was in your place back then TAC and heard Perfect Gentleman as a new Helloween intro, i would be unhappy too. But Master of The Rings has some really great song tho, like Sole Survivor and Secret Alibi. Secret Alibi is one of my favorites TBH.

From where I stand, as a fan of current Helloween and everything since MOTR, Kiske comes out looking like the bad guy when those times are talked about.  Weiki looks like the guy who was trying to keep it all together, and keep the spirit of Helloween present as evident by firing Kiske who was drastically trying to change their sound. Weikith from what I read is the one trying to keep the band more in the style of Keeper's power metal. Look at the ones he wrote for the new CD. And Grapow himself said this in an interview, and obviously Weikath was the one the wanted him gone the most, and fired him.

So, it depends on what you read. And i know I'm a recent fan, i see how people hated those 2 post Keepers albums and understand why a fan would. Also, Pink bubbles wasn't even available to many at first.

Deris' musical sensibilities are more for me and he's infused them into Helloween. I'm also a big St. Anger fan, as one can see on the Metallica thread ;p

[gazinwales]

There's no hope you 

[jjrock88]

I think a cool idea for Helloween's next release would be making it like a Allen/Lande release.  Have both Kiske and Deris sing on the disc; some songs together, some separate.  I' ve just been thinking this would be a nice treat for the long time fans.  It would crave the appetite for some fans who want Kiske back, but hopefully wouldn't disturb what the band has with Deris.

[TAC]

I think a cool idea for Helloween's next release would be making it like a Allen/Lande release.  Have both Kiske and Deris sing on the disc; some songs together, some separate.  I' ve just been thinking this would be a nice treat for the long time fans.  It would crave the appetite for some fans who want Kiske back, but hopefully wouldn't disturb what the band has with Deris.

I don't know. I feel like that kind of thing never works out. I'd rather Kai and Kiske just go off and make a killer album, and not be held in the contraints of what Unisonic is all about.

[NotePad]

I think a cool idea for Helloween's next release would be making it like a Allen/Lande release.  Have both Kiske and Deris sing on the disc; some songs together, some separate.  I' ve just been thinking this would be a nice treat for the long time fans.  It would crave the appetite for some fans who want Kiske back, but hopefully wouldn't disturb what the band has with Deris.

I can't see this happening for a few reasons. Weikath and Deris are obviously very good friends, and I get the impression Weiki and Kiske still have some bad feelings against each other.

If that happened, i see it as being like a reverse Heaven&Hell situation. Deris has been in the band waay to long and does have a big fanbase, lots of them much bigger fans of Deris. I could see Weiki, Hansen, Kiske, Marcus playing some shows and maybe doing a record under a new name like, let's say, Keepers or something. This would be done out of respect for the current Helloween line-up. Like what Dio and Sabbath did.

But i don't think this will ever happen. I think Unisonic is the closest people will get. I suggest people hoping for a Helloween/Keeper reunion give Unisonic a listen as that's the closest to it. And Unisonic ain't bad actually. It's very melodic and quite good. They need to advertise themselves to people other then metal fans, as lots of metal fans will wine about the lack of metal.

[Lowdz]

TAC, no idea about Unisonic not wanting to play the faster Helloween songs, could be true.

https://www.bravewords.com/news/194699

https://www.bravewords.com/news/195534

Kiske went a very soft melodic rock route in recent years and seemed to be trying to stay well away from metal. I guess he's now realising what pays the bills as he's been back in that direction with Avantasia and Unisonic to some degree. Maybe the voice just can't stand up to the rigors of the heavier stuff now. I could understand that.

[NotePad]

I don't really believe he dislikes metal. First of all: Unisonic. I think he probably went through a period where he felt some disdain for the metal community for only wanting him to do metal. All those fans who loved him in Helloween only wanted him to play metal, and anything else he did they made fun of and didn't support. I have not heard most of his non-helloween stuff, but he's done a bunch of records, one of them being in collaboration with Adrian Smith. And SupaRed had a couple songs I liked.

I'd like to add that he wrote Kids of The Century, which is a song I love. It's kind of a pop-metal or pop-rock song, and it's really great. Based on this song i think that if the guys worked better together and collaborated more, Pink Bubbles could have been a lot better. I don't mean better as in like Keepers, but better as in a more consistent. I can imagine Kind of The Century being a big commercial hit, and could have been if management and the record company supported it more.

But yea i don't think Kiske hates metal. He often mentions how he loves Maiden. With Unisonic i think Kiske has found the band he's probably been wishing for. Hard rock, melodic, can mix in acoustic songs and ballads, and make song that are more pop-rock and not have annoying fans complain about the lack of heaviness. I just wonder how Kai is gonna balance Gamma Ray and Unisonic. writing and recording an album takes a while, then most likely going on tour to support it- this would take up a lot of time. And he'd probably also want to take at least a short break after touring. They're confident when they say Unisonic is a real band and not a side project. Hopefully this means they'll being making a lot of music and releasing a lot of albums. I'd hate to see another Kiske project disappear.

jjrock88, i also think it would be cool if Helloween did something like Allen/Lande. Deris and Kiske both singing on Keeper of The 7 Keys Pt. 3. Sounds good ;p But i don't think Kiske would do more then 1 song, and it could be Deris and Kiske doing singing a long epic song about the keeper story, the final chapter Deris and Kai is more likely tho, and i hate Kai's voice.

Kiske/Hansen/Weiki/Marcus will never reunite. Helloween's current line-up is too strong and they guys are clearly great friends. Especially Deris and Weiki.

[gazinwales]

People are complex characters, with strange and often reactionary behaviour.
Kiske was fired from Helloween, after a wirlwind rise to the top of the metal tree.
He was young not singing for Helloween anymore, screwed over by the record label (Noise) and probably disillusioned with the whole music industry.
I remember being pretty upset when I read he wasn't interested in singing metal anymore.

Fast forward a few years on, I remember playing the first Avantasia album, hearing Kiske back singing fast heavy songs again.
I was listening on my Discman in a shopping centre, I remember hearing his voice, being frozen with joy and excitement by that voice on that song, 'Reach Out For The Light'.

These days it's pretty obvious that Kiske is into singing his old style again, just listen to how good his live performances are, he still has the range and power.
He is working again with Kai in Unisonic and also appears on the recent Gamma Ray live DVD/BR on three songs.

So all is not lost Kiske is relatively young, in good shape, and hopefully doing a lot with Kai in the future.
BUT, I really can't see him ever working with his other former Helloween members or Deris.

[TAC]

Kiske is 45, turning 46 this month. When I met him, I was surprised to find out we were the same age.

His first solo album, Instant Clarity is amazing. Features both Kai Hansen and Adrian Smith.