DT12 available on HD Tracks!

[Zydar]

Get it. You won't regret it. If you can afford to, that is.

[dongringo]

True, hopefully soon the loudness war will be over as its a proven fact that over compressed, loud music doesn't sell more albums. I think the people responsible will look back at it and be ashamed at what they have done. That being said, the DT CD version isn't near as bad as many rock/metal albums these days, the new Queensryche being a particular low point.

[rumborak]

The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.

Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.

[BlobVanDam]

The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.

Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.

I think portable music players have certainly perpetuated the issue in recent years, although I think it was in swing before portable music was as big a market as it is today. So let's blame it on portable music players AND idiot executives.

I think ideally, the more dynamic master should have been the one on the special edition DVD. Audiophiles could pay a couple of extra bucks to have the album on CD, 5.1, plus the more dynamic master. It seems that would have been more appealing than the 5.1 mix has been.

[The Stray Seed]

The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.

Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.

Another great post, man. Also, the bold part reminded me soooo much of Perdition City. Sorry for the OT xD

[cool34231a]

The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.

Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.

Wouldn't it be much practical to integrate dynamic range compression settings/levels to all audio devices, instead of doing it on the actual sound tracks? That way we could have the best of both worlds. Basically let the player's DSP do it, if somebody wants to, and leave the original music with proper dynamics...

[Dtman2112]

Wouldn't it be much practical to integrate dynamic range compression settings/levels to all audio devices, instead of doing it on the actual sound tracks? That way we could have the best of both worlds. Basically let the player's DSP do it, if somebody wants to, and leave the original music with proper dynamics...

BINGO!

[soulburner]

Wouldn't it be much practical to integrate dynamic range compression settings/levels to all audio devices, instead of doing it on the actual sound tracks? That way we could have the best of both worlds. Basically let the player's DSP do it, if somebody wants to, and leave the original music with proper dynamics...

100% agreed. I've heard it proposed by other people before, mastering engineers included.

[rumborak]

I have wondered exactly the same thing myself. Sad reality is I think that the number of people caring about this is so small that nobody gives a shit. For those people they just release
"HD tracks" and have another way of cashing in.

[Perpetual Change]

The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.

Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.

This is so true. Growing up, before I knew a thing about dynamic range, loudness was definitely desirable for me on the school bus.

I distinctly remember how much of a pain it was to try and listen to Deadwing on the way to high school, because it was so quiet, and you could hear so much talking and motor noise over everything. Stuff like "Awake" was also difficult, because it just didn't get through all the road noise. Same goes for ALL classic rock and prog, really. As a result I tended to leave those albums home.

But something like a later DT or Deftones album 

Of course now, ten years later, it seems like everyone has studio quality headphones with lots of padding. So hopefully there's still some hope for dynamic range. 

[hefdaddy42]

Except everyone is getting ripped off because the retail version is inferior. 

No one is getting ripped off, they are getting exactly what they paid for.  The CD/mp3 version is the actual release, and it is mastered in such a way to sound good the way that most people will listen to it, just like in rumby's fantastic post.

The HD version is not for wide release, it is for audiophiles.  It is something different, extra.

A comparison that comes to mind (although the analogy admittedly isn't perfect) is with the different versions of the LOTR films.  The theatrical releases are the actual films.  The extended versions are extra, and are not the actual release, even though many fans prefer them.

[cool34231a]

I just dug in the settings of my good old Sandisk Sansa with Rockbox firmware, and what do you know. There's compressor with bunch of options. So it looks like somebody thought of this already. I wonder if Dream Theater would consider giving us HDtracks version to those that purchased the Deluxe edition.

I'm pretty sure that HDtracks are selling DVD-A rips/masters of some artists. I just can't comprehend in my mind the reason for not using the mix from HDtracks  on stereo tracks of DVD-A??

[soulburner]

It would be better if the HDTracks master was released for general audience and a special, overcompressed version for people listening to music in cars and while walking/commuting ;p
Or even better: include the overcompressed mp3s on the CD itself or (if the CD is full already) as a free extra download.

[IslandInTheMaking]

Great posts Rumborak & Blob  Allthough I disagree with rumborak about blindtesting 24/96 vs 16/44.1. We did this at lenght back when I was studying audio engineering. Most of us got it right for more than 80% of the time...  But yes, I've said this over and over.. the differences are very very small. For example if you move your head left right even a few degrees, it has a LOT bigger effect.

Wouldn't it be much practical to integrate dynamic range compression settings/levels to all audio devices, instead of doing it on the actual sound tracks? That way we could have the best of both worlds. Basically let the player's DSP do it, if somebody wants to, and leave the original music with proper dynamics...

To have something like that and to have it even be of reasonable quality would be pricey i think.. Besides master compression isn't as simple as turning one knob At the very least a multiband compressor + limitter with good dithering. It would be really difficult to sell that for the general public.

[cool34231a]

No one is getting ripped off, they are getting exactly what they paid for.  The CD/mp3 version is the actual release, and it is mastered in such a way to sound good the way that most people will listen to it, just like in rumby's fantastic post.

The HD version is not for wide release, it is for audiophiles.  It is something different, extra.

A comparison that comes to mind (although the analogy admittedly isn't perfect) is with the different versions of the LOTR films.  The theatrical releases are the actual films.  The extended versions are extra, and are not the actual release, even though many fans prefer them.

Sorry but I disagree. We paid extra for the Deluxe Edition which includes the DVD-A. DVD-A is supposed to have the perfect audiophile/clean/original master, which is the main reason for the format in the first place. It is a wide release, since I've seen it in the store, besides the regular release.

The extended BD release of LOTR 1st movie had a green tint. A good analogy, I think, would be if John Petrucci would had used extra flanger effects on the Deluxe version...

I'm not sure if we're on the same page, but the reason I'm pissed is because the stereo HD version on the DVD-A has a huge dynamic range compression. I don't care about the CD, I was hoping for a great sounding 24-bit 96KHz 5.1 and stereo mixes on DVD-A.

[Nihil-Morari]

No one is getting ripped off, they are getting exactly what they paid for.  The CD/mp3 version is the actual release, and it is mastered in such a way to sound good the way that most people will listen to it, just like in rumby's fantastic post.

The HD version is not for wide release, it is for audiophiles.  It is something different, extra.

A comparison that comes to mind (although the analogy admittedly isn't perfect) is with the different versions of the LOTR films.  The theatrical releases are the actual films.  The extended versions are extra, and are not the actual release, even though many fans prefer them.

Sorry but I disagree. We paid extra for the Deluxe Edition which includes the DVD-A. DVD-A is supposed to have the perfect audiophile/clean/original master, which is the main reason for the format in the first place. It is a wide release, since I've seen it in the store, besides the regular release.

The extended BD release of LOTR 1st movie had a green tint. A good analogy, I think, would be if John Petrucci would had used extra flanger effects on the Deluxe version...

I guess I agree too with the fact that a download code could've been incorporated in the deluxe edition. The problem of course is the difference in company that's releasing these two things. So ideally it could've been done, but it would've been difficult for now. Perhaps a good point for the next deluxe edition.

[bankshot]

Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.

I agree with you in general.  However, I just listened to the HD Tracks version of DT12 in the car on the way to work today.  It was still much better than the CD version, mainly because there's no crackle from clipping of guitar and other parts in various songs.  The "HD" version was worthwhile for that reason alone.  Yeah, I had to turn up the volume a bit more, but it still sounded great in that environment.

Also totally agree with those who say that the improvement has nothing to do with bit depth or sampling rate (what makes these technically "HD"), but everything to do with the improved master.  'Tis a shame this master wasn't used for the CD.

If I'd known about this version ahead of time, I might have bought it in lieu of the physical CD - I'd never buy a CD again if download versions had at least lossless CD quality instead of lossy compression (don't care about "HD" but I'll take it if available).  I'm no audiophile, and probably couldn't tell the difference between 256kbps MP3 and CD (let alone HD), but that extra peace of mind with "lossless" is nice.    Every CD I buy goes into the computer once to rip, and then into the closet, never to be seen again.

The one nice thing about the physical version, though, was the 5.1 mix on the deluxe version - which also sounded PHENOMENAL.  Now if HD Tracks would offer multichannel downloads, too, that'd be perfect... 

[slycordinator]

I downloaded this but I got the FLAC version which is incompatible with iPod. What's the best way to retain the audio quality for use on my iPod? It would defeat the purpose to convert to an MP3, no? Nor do I want to spend 40 bucks on software that will let me convert to another lossless format.

You can convert the downloaded FLAC files to ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec), if you're unable to get hdtracks to let you redownload the ALAC version.

[dparrott]

Except everyone is getting ripped off because the retail version is inferior. 

No one is getting ripped off, they are getting exactly what they paid for.  The CD/mp3 version is the actual release, and it is mastered in such a way to sound good the way that most people will listen to it, just like in rumby's fantastic post.

Some people feel they were ripped off because they pre-ordered/bought the "actual" release only to find out a better and preferred version was released the same day, which was not announced.  Had they announced that HD versions would be released on 9/24, people would have waited.  I am not in this group because I only listen in my car, but I understand how they feel.

[Implode]

I thought it was assumed from the beginning that they'd release in HDtracks since the did it with the last album. But I guess you're right that it would've been a little better had they formally announced it sooner.

[majo]

also BC&SL and SC are available now 

[slycordinator]

I think portable music players have certainly perpetuated the issue in recent years, although I think it was in swing before portable music was as big a market as it is today. So let's blame it on portable music players AND idiot executives.

I think ideally, the more dynamic master should have been the one on the special edition DVD. Audiophiles could pay a couple of extra bucks to have the album on CD, 5.1, plus the more dynamic master. It seems that would have been more appealing than the 5.1 mix has been.

Portable players have been around longer than you might be giving credit. It was extremely common for people to have portable CD and cassette players before these new gadgets.

Also, on the 5.1 mix, it is a more dynamic master. If you go to https://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=&search_album=dream+theater you'll see that it gives the same maximum, minimum, and average as the HDTracks version for a downmix and downsample to stereo of the DVD-A. On the other hand, it's hard to tell that they're identical mix but they offer practically identical dynamics.

[thunderdog10]

I think portable music players have certainly perpetuated the issue in recent years, although I think it was in swing before portable music was as big a market as it is today. So let's blame it on portable music players AND idiot executives.

I think ideally, the more dynamic master should have been the one on the special edition DVD. Audiophiles could pay a couple of extra bucks to have the album on CD, 5.1, plus the more dynamic master. It seems that would have been more appealing than the 5.1 mix has been.

Portable players have been around longer than you might be giving credit. It was extremely common for people to have portable CD and cassette players before these new gadgets.

Also, on the 5.1 mix, it is a more dynamic master. If you go to https://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=&search_album=dream+theater you'll see that it gives the same maximum, minimum, and average as the HDTracks version for a downmix and downsample to stereo of the DVD-A. On the other hand, it's hard to tell that they're identical mix but they offer practically identical dynamics.

so the stereo version on the DVD-A is the same as the HD Tracks. that is the way i am reading it, am i correct?

[7StringedBeast]

The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.

Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.

Ok this makes no sense.  It's called a volume knob.  And I have NEVER heard anyone saying they have trouble listening to Images and Words or Metallica's black album.  Just saying.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Yeah, I'm old and slow, I knew nothing about this HD download.  I found out yesterday, 2 hours after I downloaded the normal version...

So I feel a lil ripped off, had I known, I would have got the HD only... now I'll pay for both.

[cool34231a]

so the stereo version on the DVD-A is the same as the HD Tracks. that is the way i am reading it, am i correct?

No, the stereo version on DVD-A is overcompressed, and on HDtracks it's the good one.

also BC&SL and SC are available now 

Just bought them, thanks to you!!!

[slycordinator]

I think portable music players have certainly perpetuated the issue in recent years, although I think it was in swing before portable music was as big a market as it is today. So let's blame it on portable music players AND idiot executives.

I think ideally, the more dynamic master should have been the one on the special edition DVD. Audiophiles could pay a couple of extra bucks to have the album on CD, 5.1, plus the more dynamic master. It seems that would have been more appealing than the 5.1 mix has been.

Portable players have been around longer than you might be giving credit. It was extremely common for people to have portable CD and cassette players before these new gadgets.

Also, on the 5.1 mix, it is a more dynamic master. If you go to https://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=&search_album=dream+theater you'll see that it gives the same maximum, minimum, and average as the HDTracks version for a downmix and downsample to stereo of the DVD-A. On the other hand, it's hard to tell that they're identical mix but they offer practically identical dynamics.

so the stereo version on the DVD-A is the same as the HD Tracks. that is the way i am reading it, am i correct?

No.
I said that the *5.1 mix* is a more dynamic master. The entry in that database was where someone took the 5.1 mix that is on the DVD-A and then downmixed that to stereo. And I didn't say it's the same. If you check both listings, they have different orders of the ratings and while the site claims they might not be in original order, the HDTracks one lists which is which. I think there'll be very slight differences.

[Daso]

I think the sad part of all this situation is that if you get this HD version, which apparently sounds better than the normal CD version, you wouldn't have a physical version of it. I really like having a physical version of albums, and it's rather a dilemma for me at this point whether I should buy the CD version because of it being physical, regardless of it not sounding as good as the HD version, or if I should get the HD version because it sounds better and not have a physical copy of it.

[Zydar]

also BC&SL and SC are available now 

Just bought them, thanks to you!!!

Let me know how they sound! I'm interested in getting them.

[slycordinator]

I think the sad part of all this situation is that if you get this HD version, which apparently sounds better than the normal CD version, you wouldn't have a physical version of it. I really like having a physical version of albums, and it's rather a dilemma for me at this point whether I should buy the CD version because of it being physical, regardless of it not sounding as good as the HD version, or if I should get the HD version because it sounds better and not have a physical copy of it.

You could burn a downsample the HDTracks to be compatible with a CD and burn a CDR if you only want something physical.

[drew512]

I think the sad part of all this situation is that if you get this HD version, which apparently sounds better than the normal CD version, you wouldn't have a physical version of it. I really like having a physical version of albums, and it's rather a dilemma for me at this point whether I should buy the CD version because of it being physical, regardless of it not sounding as good as the HD version, or if I should get the HD version because it sounds better and not have a physical copy of it.

While it's not the same as having a "proper" physical version of it, you can easily burn the high res files from HD tracks onto a DVD-Audio format disc.

[Daso]

I think the sad part of all this situation is that if you get this HD version, which apparently sounds better than the normal CD version, you wouldn't have a physical version of it. I really like having a physical version of albums, and it's rather a dilemma for me at this point whether I should buy the CD version because of it being physical, regardless of it not sounding as good as the HD version, or if I should get the HD version because it sounds better and not have a physical copy of it.

While it's not the same as having a "proper" physical version of it, you can easily burn the high res files from HD tracks onto a DVD-Audio format disc.

I know, but I like having the album's case with all the artwork and lyrics and so on 

[CrimsonSunrise]

Question.... remember..I'm old...and slow...   SO!  someone mentioned in another post something about the download file type being different for Apple.  I have iTunes.  I want Itunes version  AND something for CD hardcopy, so I'm assuming I want to download the Apple files yes?  And they give you the choice upon download yes?  Gracias...

[cool34231a]

A Ride of Passage
https://postimg.org/image/7gwhncw6b/

Will post Systematic Chaos when it downloads.

updated link

[Dark Castle]

If you're asking what I think you're asking Crimson, your best option would be ALAC.