Author Topic: DT12 available on HD Tracks!  (Read 53313 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #140 on: September 25, 2013, 08:44:37 AM »
Don't worry about that. 24/96 is just "snake oil", "audio homoeopathy" or whatever you want to call it. Humans can't hear anything above 22kHz (the limit of 44,1kHz sampling) and no album mastered for human consumption has a dynamic range above 96dB (the limit of 16 bit).

To elaborate on this, the 20kHz is the absolute limit of human hearing, and is the stuff you can barely perceive when a car's brake screech. Realistically, the human hearing stops being able to perceive anything useful above 15kHz.
The 24bit/96kHz sampling rate has a technical reason. The problem is that every effect, every mixdown etc. introduces unwanted "quantization noise". Now, if you record and mix in 44.1kHz and 16 bit, any of those errors immediately start eating into the bit range you're using later for the final product. So, recording and mixing is done in 24bit/96kHz, so all effects etc eat into those spare 8 bits and spare 48kHz, all of which are irrelevant once you downsample it to the 48kHz on a CD.
Getting the non-downsampled 96kHz signal is indeed snake oil. What people report is usually just placebo effect, since they know they're listening to a 96kHz version. Every time they do blind tests, nobody can distinguish the two versions.

That said though, if DT of course changes the mastering on those versions, that's a different story. And it's quite lamentable that the "good-sounding" version is kinda an afterthought, with the main product being the brickwalled one. But I guess that shows you the market aim.
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #141 on: September 25, 2013, 08:46:31 AM »
Buy the HD tracks if you care about having a more dynamic master.  Don't get caught up in bits and sampling rates.  I bought them, and instantly converted them to 320kbps mp3s.  It sounds great that way because it is a completely different master than the CD version.  They dynamics are there and all the instruments have room to be heard.  It's fantastic. 

*The distortion in IT during the guitar part caused by over compression is completely gone in the HD version.

If you care about audio quality or the loudness wars and all that stuff.  Buy this version.

This version does NOT change the mix.  It's still the same mix, so don't expect any flaws you find in the mix to be gone.
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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #142 on: September 25, 2013, 08:49:47 AM »
Don't worry about that. 24/96 is just "snake oil", "audio homoeopathy" or whatever you want to call it. Humans can't hear anything above 22kHz (the limit of 44,1kHz sampling) and no album mastered for human consumption has a dynamic range above 96dB (the limit of 16 bit).

To elaborate on this, the 20kHz is the absolute limit of human hearing, and is the stuff you can barely perceive when a car's brake screech. Realistically, the human hearing stops being able to perceive anything useful above 15kHz.
The 24bit/96kHz sampling rate has a technical reason. The problem is that every effect, every mixdown etc. introduces unwanted "quantization noise". Now, if you record and mix in 44.1kHz and 16 bit, any of those errors immediately start eating into the bit range you're using later for the final product. So, recording and mixing is done in 24bit/96kHz, so all effects etc eat into those spare 8 bits and spare 48kHz, all of which are irrelevant once you downsample it to the 48kHz on a CD.
Getting the non-downsampled 96kHz signal is indeed snake oil. What people report is usually just placebo effect, since they know they're listening to a 96kHz version. Every time they do blind tests, nobody can distinguish the two versions.

That said though, if DT of course changes the mastering on those versions, that's a different story. And it's quite lamentable that the "good-sounding" version is kinda an afterthought, with the main product being the brickwalled one. But I guess that shows you the market aim.

So the spare bits are a net to catch unwanted sounds?

Offline rumborak

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #143 on: September 25, 2013, 08:52:49 AM »
Yeah, kinda like a bucket they all end up in during processing, and then you throw away the bucket at the end.
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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #144 on: September 25, 2013, 08:54:30 AM »
Yeah, kinda like a bucket they all end up in during processing, and then you throw away the bucket at the end.

so then listening to 24/96 is identical to CD quality?

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #145 on: September 25, 2013, 08:56:54 AM »
Yeah, kinda like a bucket they all end up in during processing, and then you throw away the bucket at the end.

so then listening to 24/96 is identical to CD quality?

24/96 is technically better but you won't be able to tell the difference.  The higher rates are more for recording than for listening purposes. 

The thing about the HD tracks is it is a completely different master without the brickwall limiting and insane volume.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #146 on: September 25, 2013, 08:57:11 AM »
A computer can of course differentiate between a 24/96 and a CD waveform, but for the human ear they are the same.
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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #147 on: September 25, 2013, 08:59:41 AM »
So HD audio = Marketing scam

Offline rumborak

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #148 on: September 25, 2013, 09:00:05 AM »
Yup.
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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #149 on: September 25, 2013, 09:06:55 AM »
Yup.

So wait a second.  CDs are in 44.1kHz?   Doesn't that mean there are even sounds on the CD we can't hear?

Offline rumborak

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #150 on: September 25, 2013, 09:10:05 AM »
It's called "Nyquist theorem". The maximum frequency you can have with a signal of X Hertz is X/2 Hertz. That's why CDs are in 44.1kHz, because the maximum frequency then is 44.1kHz/2 = 22.05kHz, which is the maximum of the human ear.
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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #151 on: September 25, 2013, 09:12:56 AM »
It's called "Nyquist theorem". The maximum frequency you can have with a signal of X Hertz is X/2 Hertz. That's why CDs are in 44.1kHz, because the maximum frequency then is 44.1kHz/2 = 22.05kHz, which is the maximum of the human ear.

Interesting. I was unaware of that. 

But Jordan and John can hear 96kHz it is rumored.   ;)

Offline soulburner

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #152 on: September 25, 2013, 09:14:36 AM »
Even cats can't hear 96kHz :D

Offline The Stray Seed

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #153 on: September 25, 2013, 09:17:21 AM »
Don't worry about that. 24/96 is just "snake oil", "audio homoeopathy" or whatever you want to call it. Humans can't hear anything above 22kHz (the limit of 44,1kHz sampling) and no album mastered for human consumption has a dynamic range above 96dB (the limit of 16 bit).

To elaborate on this, the 20kHz is the absolute limit of human hearing, and is the stuff you can barely perceive when a car's brake screech. Realistically, the human hearing stops being able to perceive anything useful above 15kHz.
The 24bit/96kHz sampling rate has a technical reason. The problem is that every effect, every mixdown etc. introduces unwanted "quantization noise". Now, if you record and mix in 44.1kHz and 16 bit, any of those errors immediately start eating into the bit range you're using later for the final product. So, recording and mixing is done in 24bit/96kHz, so all effects etc eat into those spare 8 bits and spare 48kHz, all of which are irrelevant once you downsample it to the 48kHz on a CD.
Getting the non-downsampled 96kHz signal is indeed snake oil. What people report is usually just placebo effect, since they know they're listening to a 96kHz version. Every time they do blind tests, nobody can distinguish the two versions.

That said though, if DT of course changes the mastering on those versions, that's a different story. And it's quite lamentable that the "good-sounding" version is kinda an afterthought, with the main product being the brickwalled one. But I guess that shows you the market aim.

Very nice post Rumborak  :tup Thank you!

Offline volwrath

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #154 on: September 25, 2013, 09:18:51 AM »
Buy the HD tracks if you care about having a more dynamic master.  Don't get caught up in bits and sampling rates.  I bought them, and instantly converted them to 320kbps mp3s.  It sounds great that way because it is a completely different master than the CD version.  They dynamics are there and all the instruments have room to be heard.  It's fantastic. 

*The distortion in IT during the guitar part caused by over compression is completely gone in the HD version.

If you care about audio quality or the loudness wars and all that stuff.  Buy this version.

This version does NOT change the mix.  It's still the same mix, so don't expect any flaws you find in the mix to be gone.

Why should one buy the HDTracks version over mixing down the 5.1 version?

Offline me7

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #155 on: September 25, 2013, 09:19:06 AM »
Yup.

So wait a second.  CDs are in 44.1kHz?   Doesn't that mean there are even sounds on the CD we can't hear?

Human hearing ends somewhere between 16-19kHz, depending on your genetic disposition and how damaged your hearing is. CDs can store frequencies up to 22,05kHz.
So yes, CDs can store more than humans can hear.

Offline Shine

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #156 on: September 25, 2013, 09:19:18 AM »
Quick question, while we're talking about dynamic range and the like.

I know that even though Falling Into Infinity isn't generally that well regarded as a whole, people really like the sound of the album. It's often thought of as one of the best sounding DT albums, even though the songwriting leaves a lot to be desired.

But when I look at any song file from FII in Audacity, it looks terrible. Frankly, it looks worse than the songs from DT, almost a solid rectangle, no dynamic range at all. So if that's the case, then why do people like the way it sounds so much, yet they're shitting all over DT from a sonic perspective?

I'm not much of an audiophile, so excuse my ignorance on the matter, but it seems a bit like a double standard.
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Offline dongringo

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #157 on: September 25, 2013, 09:20:42 AM »
The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.
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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #158 on: September 25, 2013, 09:22:57 AM »
The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.

So there is SOME difference in what you would hear on an HD version. 

Offline The Stray Seed

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #159 on: September 25, 2013, 09:24:14 AM »
The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.

So there is SOME difference in what you would hear on an HD version.

But it's due to the different master, and not to the 96kHz frequency.

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #160 on: September 25, 2013, 09:24:49 AM »
The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.

So there is SOME difference in what you would hear on an HD version.

Only this specific HD version for this specific album.  Because the master on the CD is completely different from the master on the HD tracks.  The HD tracks are far superior for this album.  However, this is not the case for every HD track on that website.  But in DT's case, it is.

Also, the reason buying HD tracks over mixing down the 5.1 is that the 5.1 is a completely different mix.  So when you mix down 5.1 into stereo its actually going to be a different mix than the CD.
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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #161 on: September 25, 2013, 09:29:31 AM »
The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.

So there is SOME difference in what you would hear on an HD version.

But it's due to the different master, and not to the 96kHz frequency.

So basically with this master for the HD tracks, they removed the brickwalling while the CD still has the brickwalling. 

Sorry for all the questions.  I was always curious about this but never really knew anyone who could answer it correctly for me.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #162 on: September 25, 2013, 09:36:19 AM »
Quick question, while we're talking about dynamic range and the like.

I know that even though Falling Into Infinity isn't generally that well regarded as a whole, people really like the sound of the album. It's often thought of as one of the best sounding DT albums, even though the songwriting leaves a lot to be desired.

But when I look at any song file from FII in Audacity, it looks terrible. Frankly, it looks worse than the songs from DT, almost a solid rectangle, no dynamic range at all. So if that's the case, then why do people like the way it sounds so much, yet they're shitting all over DT from a sonic perspective?

I'm not much of an audiophile, so excuse my ignorance on the matter, but it seems a bit like a double standard.

The differences are a bit subtle at a glance, but here's the summary as I see it-

If you see the whole songs zoomed out, yeah, everything is going to look like a block of noise. Zoom in to say a 10 second sample of a similar section from each album. You should see that FII does look noticeably more dynamic. It's not as dynamic as say IaW, but it should still be noticeably better.

Also, the reason they're "loud" is a little different, and is the most important distinction here. DT12 is very compressed, so all of the louder sections are compressed into that narrow, louder volume area.
FII isn't as compressed in that way, but the volume is a bit too high, which results in louder sections simply being clipped off (as opposed to being squished down as compression does). So it may still suffer from clipping problems (clicky, fuzz sounds), but the music before it was clipped off was not as compressed.

Using a program to measure the DR probably doesn't really make much distinction as to why something is loud, or a measure of whether something truly sounds good or bad, it simply spits out a number. When taken as a simple number, DT12 averages DR6. FII averages a DR7. Not a huge difference on paper, but I actually find that at that DR range, that little bit goes a long way.

Also, the production of the albums is very different. Modern production tends to compress each instrument separately before mixing, so it makes it sound louder even if it's a dynamic master.

The numbers and pictures are all good and well to help understand the issue a bit, but the ears should always be the final judge of quality. :)
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Offline soulburner

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #163 on: September 25, 2013, 09:36:46 AM »
So basically with this master for the HD tracks, they removed the brickwalling while the CD still has the brickwalling. 

Sorry for all the questions.  I was always curious about this but never really knew anyone who could answer it correctly for me.

Yes, both versions were produced in a different way - basically, two masters were created. One dynamic and the other... not ;) The better quality of HDTracks releases of ADTOE and DT12 are not because they're 24 bit 96kHz. There is no technical obstacle to put the better master on a CD at 16 bits and 44.1kHz. Higher resolution audio files are just a bigger download and take more space on disk/memory. As was already explained by rumborak, 24/96 files are a necessity during production - not listening.

It seems Roadrunner Records is experimenting with loudness war free releases and chose HDTracks to do it. I wonder when it will end and what will the final result be: will they start putting the better masters on CDs, keep the HDTracks stuff going or will they just stop caring at all and we will be forced to listen to white noise forever? ;)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 09:42:44 AM by soulburner »

Offline The Stray Seed

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #164 on: September 25, 2013, 09:38:15 AM »
The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.

So there is SOME difference in what you would hear on an HD version.

But it's due to the different master, and not to the 96kHz frequency.

So basically with this master for the HD tracks, they removed the brickwalling while the CD still has the brickwalling. 

Sorry for all the questions.  I was always curious about this but never really knew anyone who could answer it correctly for me.

No problem, if you need more infos just read through the last post by 7stringedbeast, he's been much more specific than me.

Anyway, I still think all this fuss is something really excessive. I'm satisfied with the sound of the CD. Personal opinion. It has its bricks, but it's not something I personally dislike so much. If you want perfection, just get the HD tracks, if you are satisfied with a very good product, you can buy the CD.

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #165 on: September 25, 2013, 09:46:00 AM »
What is a good program to use to view the dynamics, frequency, bitrate, etc?

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #166 on: September 25, 2013, 09:49:08 AM »
The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.

Yeah, and there's no reason that couldn't have existed on the actual CD. The implication that you need HD to get rid of the brickwalled sound is completely misinformed.

Offline volwrath

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #167 on: September 25, 2013, 09:50:45 AM »
What is a good program to use to view the dynamics, frequency, bitrate, etc?

I used audacity to see how loud/ clipped the mp3s were

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #168 on: September 25, 2013, 09:54:59 AM »
The fact is they wide released an inferior version and then made people shell out for the real version. 
Well, no.  They wide released the real version, the one designed for the mass market and that will be counted as album sales (which AFAIK only counts CDs, LPs, and mp3 downloads - correct me if I'm wrong), and released an audiophile version as an extra if you want it.

The vast majority of their fans will never know or care about these HD Tracks, cool as they may be to some people here.
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #169 on: September 25, 2013, 10:35:24 AM »
The fact is they wide released an inferior version and then made people shell out for the real version. 
Well, no.  They wide released the real version, the one designed for the mass market and that will be counted as album sales (which AFAIK only counts CDs, LPs, and mp3 downloads - correct me if I'm wrong), and released an audiophile version as an extra if you want it.

The vast majority of their fans will never know or care about these HD Tracks, cool as they may be to some people here.

Except everyone is getting ripped off because the retail version is inferior.  The master is completely smashed and has audible clipping.  The HD track master fixes these issues.  I mean, this is an industry problem. 

It's undeniable that the master for the HD tracks is far better than the retail version.  That is really really sad.
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Offline dongringo

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #170 on: September 25, 2013, 10:40:08 AM »
Its the reality of the record company biz these days. At least we have the choice of getting the HD version...for DT albums anyway.
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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #171 on: September 25, 2013, 10:41:53 AM »
Its the reality of the record company biz these days. At least we have the choice of getting the HD version...for DT albums anyway.

I agree I'm glad they are available, but they shouldn't have to be is what I'm saying.  To me, there is absolutely no reason to buy the physical copy because it is garbage compared to the HD tracks version.  The better version should have been on the physical CD like you know, it's supposed to be.  The record industry is fucking up music so hard.
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Offline soulburner

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #172 on: September 25, 2013, 10:45:23 AM »
The retail CD master is inferior to the HDTracks master. It's not like the HDTracks version was somehow enhanced beyond non-audiophile human ear capabilities.

The HDTracks master should be put on the retail CD, period. Instead the current situation only creates further misunderstanding that somehow people who want dynamics in music are elitist or audiophile.

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #173 on: September 25, 2013, 10:45:40 AM »
I am curious about this HD version now.

Offline Shine

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Re: DT12 available on HD Tracks!
« Reply #174 on: September 25, 2013, 10:46:27 AM »
The fact is they wide released an inferior version and then made people shell out for the real version. 
Well, no.  They wide released the real version, the one designed for the mass market and that will be counted as album sales (which AFAIK only counts CDs, LPs, and mp3 downloads - correct me if I'm wrong), and released an audiophile version as an extra if you want it.

The vast majority of their fans will never know or care about these HD Tracks, cool as they may be to some people here.

Except everyone is getting ripped off because the retail version is inferior.  The master is completely smashed and has audible clipping.  The HD track master fixes these issues.  I mean, this is an industry problem. 

It's undeniable that the master for the HD tracks is far better than the retail version.  That is really really sad.

I'll deny it.

You can't define which is "better" and which is "worse." It all comes down to what the band and what the producer wanted, and what they wanted was an album that sounds like the official, "wide" release. Whether you like what they produced is, frankly, irrelevant.

If anything, I think it's pretty cool of them to accept that there's another group of people out there who don't like the heavily compressed sound and released a version of the album that was mixed with them in mind. Yeah, it would have been nice if they had announced it earlier, but oh well, no reason to hold a grudge over an extra.
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