Author Topic: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)  (Read 96889 times)

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Offline Shadow2222

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Re: Should have had green text, perhaps...
« Reply #420 on: January 31, 2014, 09:05:36 AM »
I guess we're just not as smart as you.

Actually, he is right. The end of the orchestral section does replicate the melody from the very beginning of the song. Unless I am missing some sort of joke?

This is the official Roadrunner upload: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFMDGSWhHbo
From 10:17 until 10:55 is the exact same melody as the opening of the track.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 09:14:30 AM by Shadow2222 »
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #421 on: January 31, 2014, 10:12:21 AM »
I'm just being snarky about the way he phrased it.

Offline Shadow2222

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #422 on: January 31, 2014, 11:37:06 AM »
^ I thought it might have been that. Okay, everyone, carry on then  :lol
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #423 on: January 31, 2014, 01:55:01 PM »
Even if it does reprise a melody from the beginning of the song that doesn't really change the fact that they just shoved it in there with a couple of reverse swells on either side of it.  Lazy.


This coming from a fan who has bought every album, compilation, DVD, etc...a fan who's going to the meet & greet....in other words, a supportive fan of the band.   I just don't like that part, don't see the need for it in there and for me, frankly, it kind of ruins that song.   I just don't have the patience to sit through 4 minutes of that stuff.  Is it a beautiful piece?  Yeah, sure.  Is it well executed? Yup, well executed.  I'm not criticizing the piece itself.  Just the way they used it.  Doesn't make any sense to me at all. 


On 6DOIT it made sense.  It was a fairly typical overture for a symphonic collection of songs all tied together by a common lyrical and musical thread. It was in the beginning of the suite, which is the traditional spot for an overture like this.  On this album, in this particular instance, I'm just not a fan of how the piece was utilized.  It's clumsy and almost feels like a gimmick.  It's like an intermission.....hey wait a minute, maybe that's why I always feel like I need to pee when that part comes on.  :justjen    :P    :biggrin:


Hey, again, I'm a huge fan of these guys, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna love every single thing they do.  Other than this small gripe, I think it's a solid album.

Offline haceeb

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #424 on: January 31, 2014, 02:04:08 PM »
Sorry to bother with this, but it just made me cry, I'm serious, i cant tell what happened, i was just listening to it for the first time, and suddenly, tears, melody, instrumentation, sections, lyrics, mix, everything, JL, JP, JMX, MM, JR thanks for such a glorious moment in my life.

Did something similar happen to you guys?
i wanted to say nothing but ^: "thanks for such a glorious moment in my life" :tup

Offline ErHaO

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #425 on: January 31, 2014, 03:15:33 PM »
I still tend to skip the ambient and orchestra part (it is beautiful and nice but kind of kills the pace to me). But the rest of the songs keeps growing to me. It is truly one of the best DT tracks to me. If the orchestra and ambient parts were better incorperated (to me), the song would probably become my favourite epic. But still, this song is awesome and I can't wait to hear it live.

Offline philippaopao

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #426 on: January 31, 2014, 07:31:47 PM »
A glorious orchestra in IT is just better to me than, say, MP roaring "HISTORIAN" and "I" in TCOT. Also a song about humanity just connects with me better than a song about someone being afraid of some rich guy.

Offline krands85

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #427 on: January 31, 2014, 07:40:21 PM »
I'm not too keen on the ambient section (I even made an edited version of the song where I cut out almost that whole part), but I do love the orchestral part, as well as the rest of the song - definitely a top 10 track. DT have this habit of pulling out an absolute top tier song when writing an album, even if the rest of the album doesn't do too much for you. That's the case for me with IT and DT12 really.
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Offline haceeb

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #428 on: January 31, 2014, 07:56:08 PM »
A glorious orchestra in IT is just better to me than, say, MP roaring "HISTORIAN" and "I" in TCOT. Also a song about humanity just connects with me better than a song about someone being afraid of some rich guy.
:tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #429 on: February 01, 2014, 06:12:04 AM »
A glorious orchestra in IT is just better to me than, say, MP roaring "HISTORIAN" and "I" in TCOT. Also a song about humanity just connects with me better than a song about someone being afraid of some rich guy.

And yet JP wrote the lyrics to both.
And I'd still take TCOT over IT.
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Offline Onno

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #430 on: February 01, 2014, 06:22:38 AM »
A glorious orchestra in IT is just better to me than, say, MP roaring "HISTORIAN" and "I" in TCOT. Also a song about humanity just connects with me better than a song about someone being afraid of some rich guy.

And yet JP wrote the lyrics to both.
And I'd still take TCOT over IT.
Yep.

Offline jonB

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #431 on: February 01, 2014, 06:34:58 AM »
Dont know if this has been mentioned - It's been bugging me what that orch theme reminded me of and its from Twin Peaks - Laura Palmers theme.

At 3.00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khMlcTE7lw8

Very similar.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #432 on: February 01, 2014, 06:41:48 AM »
I'm just being snarky about the way he phrased it.
How else should he have phrased it?  Just curious.
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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #433 on: February 01, 2014, 06:55:24 AM »
It's only a few seconds worth, but when I saw this episode the first time I almost did a double take (sorry about the quality, it's all I could find on Youtube). Listen to the background music from around 2:57 onwards. It's only for a few notes, and totally coincidental, but I got a kick out of it nonetheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3khqbbUgNMI&t=177
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Offline Onno

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #434 on: February 01, 2014, 07:27:17 AM »
Dont know if this has been mentioned - It's been bugging me what that orch theme reminded me of and its from Twin Peaks - Laura Palmers theme.

At 3.00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khMlcTE7lw8

Very similar.
That could actually be intended. DT used the Twin Peaks theme as an intro sometimes in the 90s I believe.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #435 on: February 01, 2014, 07:42:37 AM »
Even if it does reprise a melody from the beginning of the song that doesn't really change the fact that they just shoved it in there with a couple of reverse swells on either side of it.  Lazy.


This coming from a fan who has bought every album, compilation, DVD, etc...a fan who's going to the meet & greet....in other words, a supportive fan of the band.   I just don't like that part, don't see the need for it in there and for me, frankly, it kind of ruins that song.   I just don't have the patience to sit through 4 minutes of that stuff.  Is it a beautiful piece?  Yeah, sure.  Is it well executed? Yup, well executed.  I'm not criticizing the piece itself.  Just the way they used it.  Doesn't make any sense to me at all. 


On 6DOIT it made sense.  It was a fairly typical overture for a symphonic collection of songs all tied together by a common lyrical and musical thread. It was in the beginning of the suite, which is the traditional spot for an overture like this.  On this album, in this particular instance, I'm just not a fan of how the piece was utilized.  It's clumsy and almost feels like a gimmick.  It's like an intermission.....hey wait a minute, maybe that's why I always feel like I need to pee when that part comes on.  :justjen    :P    :biggrin:


Hey, again, I'm a huge fan of these guys, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna love every single thing they do.  Other than this small gripe, I think it's a solid album.

The reverse swells for me are not lazy transitions. It signifies going to another plane - a transcendental plane.

The way I appreciated the "Embracing Circle" is that this is the Illumination part of the song's narrative. Basically, the first half of IT poses questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found" The ambient section that follows it sort of signifies that the questions remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence. And it remains unanswered for quite some time, which is why the ambient section is quite lengthy. But "illumination" starts to creep in slowly with the orchestral part until it leads to a moment of enlightenment with the orchestral version of the intro, which signals a new "illuminated" beginning. After this moment of enlightenment, the song "returns" to a non-transcendental phase but this time with answers to the questions posed before the moment of illumination. What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth.

Thus, the orchestral part, Embracing Circle, is indeed used here as an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light  better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.

Question about the final section. Does Surrender, Trust and Passion start at the repeat of the heavy riff in Paradox of the Black Light, or already at the slow section leading to "To really feel the joy in life..."?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:53:15 AM by erwinrafael »

Offline GasparXR

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #436 on: February 01, 2014, 02:00:23 PM »
I would say it truly begins when the musical theme of Part 5 kicks in, which the beginning of I find to be a little bit similar to the ending of The Bigger Picture.

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #437 on: February 01, 2014, 02:02:45 PM »
I'm just being snarky about the way he phrased it.
How else should he have phrased it?  Just curious.

It could just be me, but the way he said it sounded a bit self-important, liked "I can't believe ANYONE could not understand what I do."

Though again, that's just how it sounded to me.

Offline PetFish

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #438 on: February 01, 2014, 08:01:08 PM »
The reverse swells for me are not lazy transitions. It signifies going to another plane - a transcendental plane.

The way I appreciated the "Embracing Circle" is that this is the Illumination part of the song's narrative. Basically, the first half of IT poses questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found" The ambient section that follows it sort of signifies that the questions remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence. And it remains unanswered for quite some time, which is why the ambient section is quite lengthy. But "illumination" starts to creep in slowly with the orchestral part until it leads to a moment of enlightenment with the orchestral version of the intro, which signals a new "illuminated" beginning. After this moment of enlightenment, the song "returns" to a non-transcendental phase but this time with answers to the questions posed before the moment of illumination. What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth.

Thus, the orchestral part, Embracing Circle, is indeed used here as an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light  better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.

Thanks for this awesome interpretation of the music and lyrics.  I'm terrible at stuff like this but your explanation has completely opened my mind to fully appreciate the Illumination Theory.  I love IT already but now it means so much more to me.

Thanks again.

Offline Lucidity

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #439 on: February 01, 2014, 08:48:24 PM »
It really saddens me that so many people make versions of the song where the ambient or orchestral sections are cut out... It's some really beautiful stuff. If that part wasn't in the song, I'd probably like it half as much. It would sound like a Systematic Chaos medley.

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #440 on: February 01, 2014, 10:42:54 PM »
I guess we're just not as smart as you.

Actually, he is right. The end of the orchestral section does replicate the melody from the very beginning of the song. Unless I am missing some sort of joke?

This is the official Roadrunner upload: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFMDGSWhHbo
From 10:17 until 10:55 is the exact same melody as the opening of the track.

Dude!  OH.  MY.  GOD!!!

Never noticed that before!!!!

Seriously this song is so good.  So so so so so good.

It really saddens me that so many people make versions of the song where the ambient or orchestral sections are cut out... It's some really beautiful stuff. If that part wasn't in the song, I'd probably like it half as much.

I know what you mean.  The Embracing Circle is a huge part of what makes the song so special.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 10:59:43 PM by ReaPsTA »
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #441 on: February 01, 2014, 11:40:17 PM »
I'm just being snarky about the way he phrased it.
How else should he have phrased it?  Just curious.

It could just be me, but the way he said it sounded a bit self-important, liked "I can't believe ANYONE could not understand what I do."

Though again, that's just how it sounded to me.

It is not that I can not believe anyone could not understand what I do. It's not about me. I can nto believe that anyone can not hear the common melody between the intro and the orchestral part. that is what I was saying.

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #442 on: February 01, 2014, 11:41:30 PM »
I figured that was it, I was just being a bit of an ass. No hard feelings meant. :D

Offline wolfking

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #443 on: February 02, 2014, 03:30:23 AM »
It's only a few seconds worth, but when I saw this episode the first time I almost did a double take (sorry about the quality, it's all I could find on Youtube). Listen to the background music from around 2:57 onwards. It's only for a few notes, and totally coincidental, but I got a kick out of it nonetheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3khqbbUgNMI&t=177

Those few notes are actually pretty bloody similar.  Scary actually.
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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #444 on: February 02, 2014, 04:20:18 AM »
It's only a few seconds worth, but when I saw this episode the first time I almost did a double take (sorry about the quality, it's all I could find on Youtube). Listen to the background music from around 2:57 onwards. It's only for a few notes, and totally coincidental, but I got a kick out of it nonetheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3khqbbUgNMI&t=177

Those few notes are actually pretty bloody similar.  Scary actually.

It is only a few notes, so it's certainly a coincidence, but they're arranged so similarly that it seems really close.
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Offline wasteland

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #445 on: February 02, 2014, 04:30:13 AM »
Well, at least it was a really good episode!  :hat
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #446 on: February 02, 2014, 07:20:25 AM »
I would say it truly begins when the musical theme of Part 5 kicks in, which the beginning of I find to be a little bit similar to the ending of The Bigger Picture.

That's what I originally thought too, then I got to thinking that maybe it is the riff section because it would make nice symmetry. The riffing section that ended Paradox of the Black Light would be the riffing section that introduces Surrender, Trust & Passion whose lyrics actually spell out the paradox. Maybe I am overanalyzing this already. :p

Offline JiM-Xtreme

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #447 on: July 08, 2014, 03:34:43 PM »
So, I was never crazy about this song before. I always thought it had moments of brilliance, but these moments were only fleeting and in some cases, felt like they were trying to evoke moments from albums past.

But I gotta admit. Surrender, Trust and Passion felt pretty epic when I experienced it live. Both times. Seriously. The other night, when I was at the show, I came pretty close to tears and I'm not at all ashamed to admit it.

But then, the next day I tried listening to the album version again to see if that experience made me appreciate the song more. I dove straight into Surrender, Trust and Passion, but I didn't even make it to the end of the lyrical section.

And do you know why? It's the PRODUCTION. The sound of the album just totally puts me off. I hate it.

I am generally on the side of the fence that production isn't that important and doesn't make or break an album compared to the song writing, and I haven't really partaken in too many discussions about that particular issue on these forums. But I am sorry to say that in this case, it really totally ruins my enjoyment of what should be, by rights, one of the greatest and most epic moments in all of DT.

...seriously, it makes me sad that they could release an album full of great songs that sounds so terrible.

Offline FlyingBIZKIT

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #448 on: July 08, 2014, 05:36:51 PM »
I think it's a cool song. As far as their epics go, it's at the bottom with ITPOE. It just feels a bit disjointed to me.

Offline Grizz

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #449 on: July 08, 2014, 05:43:22 PM »
It really saddens me that so many people make versions of the song where the ambient or orchestral sections are cut out... It's some really beautiful stuff. If that part wasn't in the song, I'd probably like it half as much. It would sound like a Systematic Chaos medley.
See, it still feels like a Systematic Chaos medley to me (okay, maybe not that bad) but with an orchestral break slapped in the middle for shits and giggles.

And yes, I get the relation to the lyrics/theme.

Overall I agree with Blob, as usual.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #450 on: July 09, 2014, 09:13:55 AM »
Even if it does reprise a melody from the beginning of the song that doesn't really change the fact that they just shoved it in there with a couple of reverse swells on either side of it.  Lazy.


This coming from a fan who has bought every album, compilation, DVD, etc...a fan who's going to the meet & greet....in other words, a supportive fan of the band.   I just don't like that part, don't see the need for it in there and for me, frankly, it kind of ruins that song.   I just don't have the patience to sit through 4 minutes of that stuff.  Is it a beautiful piece?  Yeah, sure.  Is it well executed? Yup, well executed.  I'm not criticizing the piece itself.  Just the way they used it.  Doesn't make any sense to me at all. 


On 6DOIT it made sense.  It was a fairly typical overture for a symphonic collection of songs all tied together by a common lyrical and musical thread. It was in the beginning of the suite, which is the traditional spot for an overture like this.  On this album, in this particular instance, I'm just not a fan of how the piece was utilized.  It's clumsy and almost feels like a gimmick.  It's like an intermission.....hey wait a minute, maybe that's why I always feel like I need to pee when that part comes on.  :justjen    :P    :biggrin:


Hey, again, I'm a huge fan of these guys, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna love every single thing they do.  Other than this small gripe, I think it's a solid album.

The reverse swells for me are not lazy transitions. It signifies going to another plane - a transcendental plane.

The way I appreciated the "Embracing Circle" is that this is the Illumination part of the song's narrative. Basically, the first half of IT poses questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found" The ambient section that follows it sort of signifies that the questions remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence. And it remains unanswered for quite some time, which is why the ambient section is quite lengthy. But "illumination" starts to creep in slowly with the orchestral part until it leads to a moment of enlightenment with the orchestral version of the intro, which signals a new "illuminated" beginning. After this moment of enlightenment, the song "returns" to a non-transcendental phase but this time with answers to the questions posed before the moment of illumination. What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth.

Thus, the orchestral part, Embracing Circle, is indeed used here as an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light  better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.

Question about the final section. Does Surrender, Trust and Passion start at the repeat of the heavy riff in Paradox of the Black Light, or already at the slow section leading to "To really feel the joy in life..."?

I completely get what you are saying, and I think that from a compositional and/or conceptual standpoint, it is nothing short of brilliant (pun not intended, but very apropos, no?).  In fact, I would say that there are a number of aspects about the song that are brilliant.  However, I am still with KNH just in terms of the fact that, despite all that, I just don't really like the middle section in the context of the song.  It just doesn't work for me, despite that I get where they were going with it and why it is there and that, in concept, I think it was a great idea.
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Offline Knguro

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #451 on: August 01, 2014, 10:03:31 AM »
After almost a year of this thread, I can say that this song is on my top 3. Probably first place alongside with LTL.

And yes, still has the power to make me cry if i listen to it carefully enough (read first post on this thread if wonder).
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #452 on: August 01, 2014, 01:37:23 PM »
I have really come to appreciate this song.  That said, although I intellectually appreciate the middle section, I still don't like it.  :)
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #453 on: August 02, 2014, 08:45:22 AM »
I was playing Oblivion last night, and thought I would put on something in 5.1, but I didn't want Genesis or Crimson, so I opted for a little mini concert with Systematic Chaos followed by DT12.

Maybe it was the mood I was in, maybe it was the night (it is rainy here in Connecticut), maybe it was because I was alone... but both albums just kicked my ass up, down, left, and right.   I'm still not down with the growly vocals in Constant Motion, The Dark Eternal Night isn't my favorite song of all time, and generally, some of the lyrics are best ignored, but the rest was far better than I remember, and far better than some of the posters here would have you believe.

But here's the reason for the post here:   I also pleasantly surprised by how DT12 hit me, and specifically The Looking Glass, The Bigger Picture, Along For The Ride, and Illumination Theory.  The big surprise was IT.   That just didn't connect for me for some reason, until last night.   The three parts (I know it's five:  I mean I/II, then III, then IV/V), the build up, the finale...  it was really a strong piece of music, and for me, the idea of the interlude works.  Whether I'd prefer it rearranged isn't relevant, because it's their statement, and that statement came through loud and clear.    And whether it was just the contrast or what, but for whatever reason, I actually consulted the lyric book more than once just to make sure I heard what I thought I heard, and even reversed a couple passages to hear them again.   I don't have them in 5.1, but I am driving this weekend, so I may revisit BC&SL and ADTOE in the same way and see if the magic strikes twice.   

Really fired up to have connected with IT like that.   

Offline JiM-Xtreme

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Re: Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)
« Reply #454 on: October 18, 2014, 07:04:07 AM »
Don't know if this has been answered already in the thread, but does anyone know what those creepy monster things are supposed to be in the concert animation?