What are your thoughts on DT12?

[Viking of the Sagas]

I have a feeling most people will love it, but I'm curious to see what everyone's initial thoughts are on the album. Personally, I'm a bit disappointed, but maybe it just hasn't clicked with me yet. It just seems less memorable and interesting than previous releases. But there's still a long way to go before I'm completely acquainted with the album.

Disappointed unfortunately.  I am glad others like it and I wish I did too.  I like what they tried to do.  I have been wanted them to go back to the Awake or even Falling to Infinity formula for a while.  Catchy quality songs with great instrumental moments rather than the SC way of throwing in a long solo just for the sake of it.

I do like the album but for me it is one of Dream Theater's weakest efforts song wise.  (A below average DT album is still great compared to other music out there)


Song impressions

False AS - Reminds me of Overture form Six Degrees.  Fine as an intro piece.

The Enemy Inside - The Heavy Track (like The Glass Prison of Six Degrees) or The Root of All Evil from Octavarium.  Solid song but far from Dream Theater's best.

The Looking Glass - Up beat and reminds me of Don't Look Past Me from Cleaning out the Closet.  It is an OK song that ends abruptly and leaves a weird taste.  I actually like Don't Look Past Me better personally.

Enigma Machine - They play their instruments great on the song but it is not very catchy or memorable.   I wish they would stop doing instrumentals on albums honestly.  They have enough going on in their songs that they don't need to waste the album space unless the instrumental is simply amazing.    I will probably end up skipping this one.  Sounds like something they would throw in the middle of a song to needlessly stretch it out on something like the SC album.  Rather would have had a song here with vocals to make the album feel more complete.

The Bigger Picture - Best song on the album so far for me.  Nice melodic song with a lot going on.  I actually felt something in this song.  I love when JP can convey emotion through his guitar (like the soft section in Lines in the Sand)

Behind the Veil - Something is off for me.  I lose interest part way through the song.  I think I will like it better with more listens but as of now it is not memorable to me.  I feel like I should like it though.

Surrender to Reason - Another one that I think I will like better on repeated listens.  Still not clicking with me though.  Thought I would like it better after reading some of the comments.

Along for the Ride - 2nd best track on the album but I still like the ADTOEs ballads better.  This Is The Life, Far From Heaven, and Beneath The Surface are more heart felt and are more catchy to me.

IT - Think I will like it better after repeated listens but am disappointed.  The song feels like different songs spliced together and doesn't flow as well as epics like Octavarium and A Change of Seasons.  Something feels off about the flow.  I like some of Jame's vocal moments.  He did a great job singing on this one....the melody just doesn't click with me though.

Like I said.  I hope I like it a lot more after repeated listens but I think it is one of their weakest albums so far.


I realize that there is quality on the album but for me the songs didn't grab me.  Most just aren't catchy,  memorable, or pleasing to my ears.

Still a huge fan and will buy whatever they put out and I commend them for their attempt.  Glad others enjoy it.


As of now after 3 listens I would rank it next to the bottom in album rankings.  Hope this changes.

Images
Scenes
Awake
Falling
Six Degrees
Octavarium (had a few clunkers but had catchy and memorable songs on it with some great melodies)
ADTOE
Cleaning out the Closet (I count this as a release because it has great quality stuff on it)
A Change of Seasons (love the song....if it had more songs on it I would rate this EP higher)
Black Clouds
SC
ToT
DT (Self Titled)
WDADU (loved the actual songs but can't get past Charlie's voice)

I agree. It's the album I was hoping it not to be.

[iamtheeviltwin]

I think it's a great album. I've only listened to it twice though, the next time will be when my cd arrives in the mail in a couple of weeks.

Anyway, I'm not sure if anyone's posted this yet, but:

They've 'borrowed' (or perhaps 'stolen' is a better word) the main melody line from Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto in Illumination Theory. I noticed this upon the first hearing. I've made a little comparison thing, which I will link to below, which plays the melody from the piano concerto first, and then plays a sped up version of the melody in Illumination Theory (I sped it up to make the comparison easier).

https://www.sendspace.com/file/miwcpf

What do you guys think? I personally think it's definitely on purpose, and it's kind of cool that they've referenced Tchaikovsky.

First thing I noticed when I listened through it.  I figured it was on purpose, much like the way many classical composers would do "variations" on not only their own, but other composer's themes as well.


As to the album itself, I like it so far.  Nothing has just grabbed me by the hair and yanked like Bridges in the Sky or Beneath the Surface did on ADTOE.  Like others have said this album is going to take more than a few listens to really get a handle on because of how "different, but similar" it is from their past material, more like FII or SC to me at this point in the listening cycle.

[The Letter M]

Illumination Theory - Again, just a long song, not a epic (ACOS and 8varium says hello).
Disjointed mess consisting of "great parts", "filler parts", "LaBrie kicking ass moment", "good but random orchestra section", "nice outro"... so, you get the picture... i enjoy it but it could be better 

Honestly, anyone can say those things about ACOS, 8VM, ITPOE and SDOIT. It's all on preference, at least to "great parts" and "filler parts". Some people find 8VM and ACOS boring in some sections, and find parts in the middle to be filler. I think IT stands up there with TCOT and 8VM, but still below ACOS and SDOIT.

-Marc.

[emtee]

I believe the first 3 notes of BTV are also the first 3 notes of Firebird Suite used to open Yes concerts.

[Viking of the Sagas]

It's about what progressions make people feel stuff. We associate different feelings with different progressions or notes in music, so the differences are understandable.

For me, these progressions were just plain boring.

[KevShmev]

I think these might be the most consistently good lyrics DT have put out to be honest.

You may be right.  Hard to say for sure without having the lyrics to read along with, but to the ear there is nothing embarassing, and everything sounds pretty good.

I don't know them yet either....only judging from my single listen.....and agree that the lyrics are very much improved. There seems to have been more thought put into them. But, I don't think any DT album(s) will match (for me) what I&W and AWAKE did lyrically.
  I enjoy those type of abstract, detailed but not committed to describing a specific person/place/thing....type lyrics that allow you to craft your own personal story to a song.
  DT have had some strong lyrical songs since on various albums but nothing like that two album run IMO. This recent two album stretch of ADTOE and DT is a VAST improvement over SC and BC&SL though.

Agreed, with all of what you said. 

[serrano]

Just finished my second listen, now I'm really loving it. But still think it's a hard piece to bite.

Memorable after 2nd listen:
BTV
TBP
STR
IT even if I need a couple more listens to digest the epic.

And wow, the Easter egg, just beautiful, it's a shame the didn't develop a full song out of it.

[Viking of the Sagas]

I think these might be the most consistently good lyrics DT have put out to be honest.

You may be right.  Hard to say for sure without having the lyrics to read along with, but to the ear there is nothing embarassing, and everything sounds pretty good.

I don't know them yet either....only judging from my single listen.....and agree that the lyrics are very much improved. There seems to have been more thought put into them. But, I don't think any DT album(s) will match (for me) what I&W and AWAKE did lyrically.
  I enjoy those type of abstract, detailed but not committed to describing a specific person/place/thing....type lyrics that allow you to craft your own personal story to a song.
  DT have had some strong lyrical songs since on various albums but nothing like that two album run IMO. This recent two album stretch of ADTOE and DT is a VAST improvement over SC and BC&SL though.

Agreed, with all of what you said.

You nailed exactly what I liked about the lyrics of those albums. One of my problems with DT12 is that it's flavoured with religious imagery that, true, is not forced upon you to imagine as such, but yes, is used actively through and through. I like the way they 'muddled up' the lyrics in those albums so that I could make up my own meaning from the detailed, yet not committed, lyrics.

[darkshade]

Let's not forget that the spacey section in TCOT is inspired by Gershwin's "Rhapsody In Blue", at least the way LTE played it in 2008 during the spacey section there. Listen to the Live In NY reunion show and tell me they didn't get the idea for the spacey section in TCOT from their performance of RIB. (never watched/listened to the LA show). It's definitely not the first time DT has taken inspiration from classical music.

[Dark Castle]

Okay but, why is it problematic if they're religious or not. I'm athiest, and I listen to Satanic Black Metal, and even dabble in some of the Christian Metalcore bands. Who cares what they're professing? Why does that effect you? Isn't it possible to just say, "Those are some well written lyrics" and even if you don't agree with the message or don't believe in them, they're still well written.

[Whatsername]

Okay but, why is it problematic if they're religious or not. I'm athiest, and I listen to Satanic Black Metal, and even dabble in some of the Christian Metalcore bands. Who cares what they're professing? Why does that effect you? Isn't it possible to just say, "Those are some well written lyrics" and even if you don't agree with the message or don't believe in them, they're still well written.

I like you. I've been thinking this exact same thing.

[SeRoX]

I see two definite sides.

Ones that fell in love with the album and think this album is one of their best. And ones that think one of their worst and even worse than BC&SL and SC or even WDADU.

There is no middle way or mix feelings. Even though it's too early to judge that hard.

[Viking of the Sagas]

Okay but, why is it problematic if they're religious or not. I'm athiest, and I listen to Satanic Black Metal, and even dabble in some of the Christian Metalcore bands. Who cares what they're professing? Why does that effect you? Isn't it possible to just say, "Those are some well written lyrics" and even if you don't agree with the message or don't believe in them, they're still well written.

I don't doubt their quality; many religious texts have been written well. My problem is that those religious texts are preaching a false and a potentially harmful message.

This transcends over to religious lyrics, for me. It's a justified stigma.

[gmillerdrake]

I don't doubt their quality; many religious texts have been written well. My problem opinion is that those religious texts are preaching a false and a potentially harmful message.

Fixed that for you 

[RuRoRul]

Okay but, why is it problematic if they're religious or not. I'm athiest, and I listen to Satanic Black Metal, and even dabble in some of the Christian Metalcore bands. Who cares what they're professing? Why does that effect you? Isn't it possible to just say, "Those are some well written lyrics" and even if you don't agree with the message or don't believe in them, they're still well written.

Lyrics about faith in a higher power to help you through adversity or show you meaning in life  don't appeal to me for two reasons, one because I cannot relate to them at all and get nothing out of it that way, and secondly because I find it extremely boring as a subject of a story, so I am unlikely to enjoy them even if I just think of them as a story rather than trying to relate to myself personally (which is how I mostly enjoy lyrics). Even if it's kept to a level where it's not overtly off-putting by being preachy, it's just a theme I find pretty unmoving.

[AngelBack]

What could possibly be harmful about sharing a belief that life has meaning and even though it might suck right now, there are answers and hope?  And if just hearing a different philosophy on life is dangerous to you and if you are that open to suggestion, I suggest you stay off Call of Duty and whatever you do, DO NOT play any metal albums backward.

[Whatsername]

And whatever you do, DO NOT play any metal albums backward.

[Viking of the Sagas]

Fixed that for you 

The sentence was better off without your intervention. 

What could possibly be harmful about sharing a belief that life has meaning and even though it might suck right now, there are answers and hope?  And if just hearing a different philosophy on life is dangerous to you and if you are that open to suggestion, I suggest you stay off Call of Duty and whatever you do, DO NOT play any metal albums backward.

Though I don't want to get into a long-winded argument, suffice it to say that you're not being entirely honest with what I said at all. (Assuming this is a response to my words.)

Lyrics about faith in a higher power to help you through adversity or show you meaning in life  don't appeal to me for two reasons, one because I cannot relate to them at all and get nothing out of it that way, and secondly because I find it extremely boring as a subject of a story, so I am unlikely to enjoy them even if I just think of them as a story rather than trying to relate to myself personally (which is how I mostly enjoy lyrics). Even if it's kept to a level where it's not overtly off-putting by being preachy, it's just a theme I find pretty unmoving.

Yeah, I really do agree here. You nailed my thoughts to the wall as well with this.

[jammindude]

Okay but, why is it problematic if they're religious or not. I'm athiest, and I listen to Satanic Black Metal, and even dabble in some of the Christian Metalcore bands. Who cares what they're professing? Why does that effect you? Isn't it possible to just say, "Those are some well written lyrics" and even if you don't agree with the message or don't believe in them, they're still well written.

Lyrics about faith in a higher power to help you through adversity or show you meaning in life  don't appeal to me for two reasons, one because I cannot relate to them at all and get nothing out of it that way, and secondly because I find it extremely boring as a subject of a story, so I am unlikely to enjoy them even if I just think of them as a story rather than trying to relate to myself personally (which is how I mostly enjoy lyrics). Even if it's kept to a level where it's not overtly off-putting by being preachy, it's just a theme I find pretty unmoving.

I'm actually going to agree with RRR...but from the opposite side of the coin.    I have never understood anyone who says that lyrics to a song are meaningless.     I'm not a whack job who believes that songs can "make you do things"....that's stupid.   But music AND lyrics are extremely powerful things.   Don't believe me?  Watch a war vet at a baseball game during the national anthem.   

I don't mind hearing other opinions from people.   But if they are just on a completely different planet from me (since, DC brought it up, I'll use black metal/Satanism as an example....but it could be ANY message I strongly disagree with....the Westboro Baptists for example) then I am not going to spend any time listening to it.  I wouldn't allow someone from the WBC to follow me around my house and preach their message of hate to me all day long....so why would I make an exception or change my mind if they decided to put it to music....even if it was good?

And I defend anyone's right to NOT want to hear someone's lyrical message. 

[Perpetual Change]

I did a track by track:

False Awakening Suite: A short piece that has interesting moments but fails to gain much momentum and suffers from a lack of fluidity. It seems to lack purpose. Score: 2/5

The Enemy Inside: An exceptional instrumental section and JP/JR solo spot gives existential validity to this otherwise vanilla prog metal tune. Score: 3/5

The Looking Glass: Dream Theater play to their strengths here moreso than anywhere else on the album, infusing old-school progressive metal with their trademark instrumental craftmanship and LaBrie's Arena Rock knack for melody. Score: 5/5

Enigma Machine: It's not as bad as "Raw Dog", but it lacks direction and fails to mesmerize despite showcasing virtuosity. It might be a lot more fun to watch live. Score: 2/5

The Bigger Picture: This dynamic and powerful song spirals out of control after the first chorus, but that instrumental build-up into the finale puts everything back into perspective. Score: 4/5

Behind the Veil: Parts of good and bad songs are jarbled together without much regard for fluidity.  JP's solo almost saves the song, but we've seen that trick too many times before. Score: 2/5

Surrender to Reason: The Rush influences on this album are starting to feel blatant. Dream Theater are obviously lifelong disciples, but even they should know how to avoid those awful 70's Rush transitions by now. Score: 2/5

Along for the Ride: A solid effort that sits well beside songs like "Wither" and "This is the Life". Score: 3/5

Illumination Theory: For every fantastic section of this 22 minute song, there is section that feels like a mere formality - including & especially Rush homages. I love the orchestrated section, and the piano/guitar fadeout at the very end. Can we have more of that? Score: 3/5

In sum, things seem looser in DT world this time around. DT12 is a mixed bag that continues to demonstrate that band's excellent musicianship and creativity, but homages to the band's influences are too prominent, and the songcrafting is more concise but nowhere near as seamless as on A Dramatic Turn of Events.  Overall: 6.5/10

[gmillerdrake]

Fixed that for you 

The sentence was better off without your intervention. 

Perhaps to you it was.....but That sentence was stated as 'fact' before my intervention.....it seemed necessary for it to be clarified that your sentence and content within is indeed......an opinion.

[MoraWintersoul]

False Awakening Suite: A short piece that has interesting moments but fails to gain much momentum and suffers from a lack of fluidity. It seems to lack purpose. Score: 2/5

The Enemy Inside: An exceptional instrumental section and JP/JR solo spot gives existential validity to this otherwise vanilla prog metal tune. Score: 3/5

The Looking Glass: Dream Theater play to their strengths here moreso than anywhere else on the album, infusing old-school progressive metal with their trademark instrumental craftmanship and LaBrie's Arena Rock knack for melody. Score: 5/5

Enigma Machine: It's not as bad as "Raw Dog", but it lacks direction and fails to mesmerize despite showcasing virtuosity. It might be a lot more fun to watch live. Score: 2/5

The Bigger Picture: This dynamic and powerful song spirals out of control after the first chorus, but that instrumental build-up into the finale puts everything back into perspective. Score: 4/5

Illumination Theory: For every fantastic section of this 22 minute song, there is section that feels like a mere formality - including & especially Rush homages. I love the orchestrated section, and the piano/guitar fadeout at the very end. Can we have more of that? Score: 3/5

In sum, things seem looser in DT world this time around. DT12 is a mixed bag.  Overall: 6.5/10

Did you get into my head regarding these songs dude.

[Outcrier]

Illumination Theory - Again, just a long song, not a epic (ACOS and 8varium says hello).
Disjointed mess consisting of "great parts", "filler parts", "LaBrie kicking ass moment", "good but random orchestra section", "nice outro"... so, you get the picture... i enjoy it but it could be better 

Honestly, anyone can say those things about ACOS, 8VM, ITPOE and SDOIT. It's all on preference, at least to "great parts" and "filler parts". Some people find 8VM and ACOS boring in some sections, and find parts in the middle to be filler. I think IT stands up there with TCOT and 8VM, but still below ACOS and SDOIT.

-Marc.

My opinion is that:

ACOS and 8varium is the ones who flow naturally and are the "real DT epics".
The amazing SDOIT i would put into another category, more like a "conceptual work" or other thing.
ITPOE is not cohesive as the other two and the composition doesn't even start to compare.
TCOT and IT feels like a bunch of songs put together and are more forced... a mix of great and not so great moments.

[Viking of the Sagas]

Fixed that for you 

The sentence was better off without your intervention. 

Perhaps to you it was.....but That sentence was stated as 'fact' before my intervention.....it seemed necessary for it to be clarified that your sentence and content within is indeed......an opinion.

Maybe in your mind it was fact, but all that's your own adding on top of what the actual content of my post was. 

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Funny I always thought that the beautiful intro and the second part with guitar and vocals in 8vm are the only parts that sticks out for me. The rest of the song is just mish mash of ideas thrown together. The part with references to bands and actors is pretty silly actually. Still love song though. Again Someone like him is such a nice little lyrical treat.

[Dark Castle]

Okay but, why is it problematic if they're religious or not. I'm athiest, and I listen to Satanic Black Metal, and even dabble in some of the Christian Metalcore bands. Who cares what they're professing? Why does that effect you? Isn't it possible to just say, "Those are some well written lyrics" and even if you don't agree with the message or don't believe in them, they're still well written.

Lyrics about faith in a higher power to help you through adversity or show you meaning in life  don't appeal to me for two reasons, one because I cannot relate to them at all and get nothing out of it that way, and secondly because I find it extremely boring as a subject of a story, so I am unlikely to enjoy them even if I just think of them as a story rather than trying to relate to myself personally (which is how I mostly enjoy lyrics). Even if it's kept to a level where it's not overtly off-putting by being preachy, it's just a theme I find pretty unmoving.

I'm actually going to agree with RRR...but from the opposite side of the coin.    I have never understood anyone who says that lyrics to a song are meaningless.     I'm not a whack job who believes that songs can "make you do things"....that's stupid.   But music AND lyrics are extremely powerful things.   Don't believe me?  Watch a war vet at a baseball game during the national anthem.   

I don't mind hearing other opinions from people.   But if they are just on a completely different planet from me (since, DC brought it up, I'll use black metal/Satanism as an example....but it could be ANY message I strongly disagree with....the Westboro Baptists for example) then I am not going to spend any time listening to it.  I wouldn't allow someone from the WBC to follow me around my house and preach their message of hate to me all day long....so why would I make an exception or change my mind if they decided to put it to music....even if it was good?

And I defend anyone's right to NOT want to hear someone's lyrical message.

I'm not saying they're meaningless, but drawing Factual Ties to lyrics that are open to discrepancy is silly, and it's not like you have to let the lyrics affect you in anyway other than, wowee those were uplifting, or those are depressing.

[Viking of the Sagas]

I do actually like a lot of the choruses in DT12.

Also, Enigma Machine really sounds like the theme of Inspector Gadget. Someone with the necessary programs should make a comparison video. 

[Delirious Nomad]

Instant classic for me. Liked it the first time through and it's growing every time. Something no DT in a long time did for me. I liked ADTOE at first but early its blandness began to bore me to tears. By now I have already heard the new album more than ADTOE.

The production is huge and fits the cinematic blockbuster style. The mix is fine, too. I'm not sure about the mastering, because i heard it clip sometimes, but it's really not too distracting from the experience. I'll wait for the CD for my final judgement.
The snare sound is the characteristic classic DT sound, just more natural. Appropriate for a self-titled album.

So thank you, Dream Theater, for a mature album with a massive amount of details, mini-riffs, layers and accentuations in compactly written songs.

Oh...hi and please excuse my non-native writing.

[YtseBitsySpider]

First listen.
Regrettably Forgetable.

Hoping for something in the second spin.

[Moonchild]

What I'm reading here is that are two sides:

The ones who don't get the songs therefore scoring low and the ones who think this is a pr0g masterpiece.

For me, I tend to overcharge myself with constant repeats, because if it's an instant hit probably the songs in the future will become unbearable...much like OTBOA is to me.

I do think this is a instant classic because this IS Dream Theater and they should push us fans on the verge of insanity. It's a direct contrast to the poppy FII but has that I&W flare.. and that snare is very original these days.. kinda reminds me of Megadeth's Youthanasia.
I can't stop listening to the record, because there are so many things going on that require special atention. I remember listening for the very first time to the songs Octavarium and Change of Seasons and constantly thinking....

what the fuck was going on?
where does this and that come from?
this is beautiful! I want to go back and listen to it!
I don't like that part but that other one is pure gold..

This is what I think about the whole records not just one song... but yes IT, TBP and TLG have loads of yummy moments.

bonafide Classic

[Outcrier]

False Awakening Suite at 1:40 reminds me of Circus Maximus "The 1st Chapter" (the title track).

[kirksnosehair]

It's hard to imagine having already heard the lyrics closely enough to have formed a negative opinion about them 


I've listened to the album 5 times now and I'd be lucky if I could recite 25 words from it.     

[YtseBitsySpider]

just sounds like a mish mash of things they've done already on side projects and other stuff....

I like snippets of things here and there, Jordan finally got the hint and "shut the hell up"...so...that's a win. But a couple tracks sound like LaBrie tunes that didn't make his solo efforts (and if they weren't good enough to make those discs......well...uh oh)

[Lowdz]

Okay but, why is it problematic if they're religious or not. I'm athiest, and I listen to Satanic Black Metal, and even dabble in some of the Christian Metalcore bands. Who cares what they're professing? Why does that effect you? Isn't it possible to just say, "Those are some well written lyrics" and even if you don't agree with the message or don't believe in them, they're still well written.

Lyrics about faith in a higher power to help you through adversity or show you meaning in life  don't appeal to me for two reasons, one because I cannot relate to them at all and get nothing out of it that way, and secondly because I find it extremely boring as a subject of a story, so I am unlikely to enjoy them even if I just think of them as a story rather than trying to relate to myself personally (which is how I mostly enjoy lyrics). Even if it's kept to a level where it's not overtly off-putting by being preachy, it's just a theme I find pretty unmoving.

Yeah me too, but I found lyrics like ITPOE and TDEN just plain silly so I'll take DT12's over those lyrics. They are bland enough to not beat me over the head and I really don't pay that much attention to lyrics these days.
I can listen to Stryper and DT12's lyrics aren't as obvious as those.
They certainly don't threatened my atheism.

[Lucidity]

I also want to note that I feel all the solos are so much less interesting. Nothing new or creative to my ears. I don't remember a single JP solo, and all I remember from JR is the AFtR solo, which isn't anything particularly new.