Author Topic: The Vaccination Issue  (Read 6241 times)

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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2013, 06:30:10 PM »
Back in 1998 there was a fellow that published a study linking autism to the MMR vaccine.  His name was Andrew Wakefield.  His study sparked the anti-vaccination movement which persists today in spite of the fact that the study was discredited.

Not sure if I'd buy that narrative just yet.

http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2013/06/21/new-published-study-verifies-andrew-wakefields-research-on-autism-again-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism/

Offline theseoafs

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2013, 07:10:28 PM »
Back in 1998 there was a fellow that published a study linking autism to the MMR vaccine.  His name was Andrew Wakefield.  His study sparked the anti-vaccination movement which persists today in spite of the fact that the study was discredited.

Not sure if I'd buy that narrative just yet.

http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2013/06/21/new-published-study-verifies-andrew-wakefields-research-on-autism-again-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism/

Dunno what to tell you.  Look at the numbers.  Autism isn't more prevalent in people who've taken the MMR vaccine, and if you look at the trends over time, countries do not become more autistic after they make the vaccine mandatory.  Moreover that website is so blatantly sensational that I wouldn't trust any article that it's published, let alone one that claims to prove something that all doctors know is false.

Offline rumborak

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2013, 08:23:55 PM »
Yeah, that. Over the years of listening to science news, I have only ever read of evidence over evidence piling up, discrediting that vaccine link. That website is super-sketchy; if I see someone like Nature or Science pick it up I will listen. The "Liberty Beacon" clearly has a certain bias.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2013, 08:48:57 PM »
Not only that, but a lot of the "support" claimed from studies in that article make absolutely no mention of vaccines. It's like they just listed a  bunch of scientific studies related to autism, and hoped people wouldn't read them or try to understand them.

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2013, 04:44:01 PM »
The reason to oppose vaccinations isn't because of faux science or any irrational fears over their side-effects, but simply because they are a State sponsored big-pharma racket to line the pockets of special interests.

Offline rumborak

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2013, 04:47:18 PM »
I guess your threshold for endangering human lives is rather low. "Yeah, deadly measles outbreak. But we stuck it to the Man!"
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2013, 06:02:23 PM »
That's quite the non-sequitur. Vaccinations can easily be manufactured and distributed without cartelization. The only reason to support the current system is because you are a member of the cartel or you love supporting mega-corps.

Offline rumborak

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2013, 06:19:03 PM »
There is a difference between using a system and supporting it. I have absolutely no problem with wanting to change the status quo of how vaccines are procured. However, that shouldn't come at the expense of lives, i.e. by just stopping to get people vaccinated.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2013, 07:50:26 PM »
That's quite the non-sequitur. Vaccinations can easily be manufactured and distributed without cartelization. The only reason to support the current system is because you are a member of the cartel or you love supporting mega-corps.

Then what is your solution?

Offline theseoafs

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2013, 10:28:29 AM »
That's quite the non-sequitur. Vaccinations can easily be manufactured and distributed without cartelization. The only reason to support the current system is because you are a member of the cartel or you love supporting mega-corps.

Then what is your solution?

let the market take care of it

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2013, 03:31:00 PM »
That's quite the non-sequitur. Vaccinations can easily be manufactured and distributed without cartelization. The only reason to support the current system is because you are a member of the cartel or you love supporting mega-corps.

Then what is your solution?

let the market take care of it

 :tup

End FDA regulations, but most importantly, abolishing the Patent system. Allow entrepreneurs to compete on an even footing with the establishment. It will fall in line to a healthy, competitive and safe market in no time.

Offline orcus116

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2013, 04:06:49 PM »
So you're suggesting taking a product out of the hands of one or two companies and prefer a small handful of other companies distributing what could be a riskier product only because it's not OK for the one or two companies to have all the money but the small handful of companies (who operate the exact same way as the larger companies because they're still a business) getting money is OK. We're also talking about something that helps prevents things that have a previous track record of many, many deaths. Of all the things to end regulations on I see no reason why this should not be regulated. We're not talking about fast food here.

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2013, 07:00:20 PM »
Not implying taking anything away from them, just ending the state sponsored oligopoly and allow entrepreneurs to compete. Further, pharma, more than any other industry understand the need for a safe product so they have a vested interest in keeping things safe, when I say ending regulation, I just mean the monopoly of the FDA. There needs to be competition among regulators to ensure highest quality of product.

Offline jammindude

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2013, 07:06:14 PM »
Not implying taking anything away from them, just ending the state sponsored oligopoly and allow entrepreneurs to compete. Further, pharma, more than any other industry understand the need for a safe product so they have a vested interest in keeping things safe, when I say ending regulation, I just mean the monopoly of the FDA. There needs to be competition among regulators to ensure highest quality of product.

Because Wal-Mart proves that that's exactly how the business model works.





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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2013, 07:09:20 PM »
Not sure what that's supposed to mean.

Offline jammindude

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2013, 07:48:36 PM »
Not sure what that's supposed to mean.

That open competition always leads to superior product. 
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Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2013, 09:15:09 PM »
That's quite the non-sequitur. Vaccinations can easily be manufactured and distributed without cartelization. The only reason to support the current system is because you are a member of the cartel or you love supporting mega-corps.

Then what is your solution?

let the market take care of it

 :tup

End FDA regulations, but most importantly, abolishing the Patent system. Allow entrepreneurs to compete on an even footing with the establishment. It will fall in line to a healthy, competitive and safe market in no time.


If we did what you just suggest, companies either aren't going to have the capital necessary to do the research necessary, or won't see any reason to invest so heavily into it because they won't see the profits necessary to make it worth while. We'd see stagnation.

One thing I find missing in all of the libertarian theory about the patent system is taht the patent system is sharing of information at the same time that it protects the person who came up with the idea. WD-40 doesn't patent it's product because it wants to keep it secret.

Offline slycordinator

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2013, 10:18:59 PM »
But sometimes the complications from such diseases can be severe.  A bad case of measles can leave a patient deaf while the chickenpox virus remains in the body and can manifest itself as shingles later in life.
On the other hand, being around kids that have chickenpox makes you less likely to develop shingles. In places where they don't vaccinate everyone for chickenpox, they also don't vaccinate for shingles, unlike the US.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2013, 08:34:14 AM »
Here's the thing....I think it's probably fair to say that the course of vaccines that children receive in their early years is beneficial - not only to those children because of the protections the vaccines provide them, but also to society as a whole because the widespread use of vaccines has all but wiped out diseases like smallpox, polio, diphtheria and measles.  These are diseases that have killed people as recently as 1991 (measles outbreak).


My personal view on this is that people who do not vaccinate their children are being reckless and irresponsible.  They're not only putting their children at risk of grave illness that could cripple or kill them, but they're also putting at risk every person who will ever occupy the same room/car/bus etc with them.


We live in a "free" society, so oftentimes people are free to make decisions.  Even bad decisions.  I think not vaccinating your children falls into the "bad decision" category.


   

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2013, 08:40:01 AM »
My personal view on this is that people who do not vaccinate their children are being reckless and irresponsible.  They're not only putting their children at risk of grave illness that could cripple or kill them, but they're also putting at risk every person who will ever occupy the same room/car/bus etc with them.

I'm not sure I follow this.  Isn't it true that only those who are not vaccinated would be at risk?  If child A is not vaccinated and somehow becomes infected with whatever illness, the only people around them who would be at risk would be the very small minority who similarly are not vaccinated, and the likelihood of coming into contact with someone in such a small minority pool during the same window of time that child A is infected would be very minute.  So, really, they aren't putting the population at large at risk--only themselves--right?  Or am I missing something?
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2013, 09:53:56 AM »
bosk,
That's not entirely accurate. Firstly, many kids are too young to receive a given vaccine. Sure, you could say that this is a case of the "not vaccinated" getting sick but the way you wrote it you made it seem that only the people who actively choose to not be vaccinated will be affected. The outbreak of whooping cough (pertussis) last year in the Seattle area shows this to be the case.

And it's also not accurate because even someone vaccinated, depending on the disease and the vaccine, can get the disease. Most vaccines only provide short-term immunity; hence why there are booster shots. So someone who has been vaccinated might still get sick if they are surrounded by sick people.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2013, 01:06:51 PM »
My personal view on this is that people who do not vaccinate their children are being reckless and irresponsible.  They're not only putting their children at risk of grave illness that could cripple or kill them, but they're also putting at risk every person who will ever occupy the same room/car/bus etc with them.

I'm not sure I follow this.  Isn't it true that only those who are not vaccinated would be at risk?  If child A is not vaccinated and somehow becomes infected with whatever illness, the only people around them who would be at risk would be the very small minority who similarly are not vaccinated, and the likelihood of coming into contact with someone in such a small minority pool during the same window of time that child A is infected would be very minute.  So, really, they aren't putting the population at large at risk--only themselves--right?  Or am I missing something?


Well, the more people we have among the population who are not getting all of the vaccinations they should get, the higher the risk of those diseases spreading.  I again point to the measles outbreaks that occurred in the late 80's and early 90's   1500 people in Philadelphia caught the measles during that outbreak, many because they'd not had the vaccination.








Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2013, 10:41:39 AM »
The reason to oppose vaccinations isn't because of faux science or any irrational fears over their side-effects, but simply because they are a State sponsored big-pharma racket to line the pockets of special interests.

Is that why you can get them at big named stores.


Edit: On to the the discussion above.  If we we're to live healthy lifestyles wouldn't that mean we're less likely to get sick and need less vaccines?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 10:50:07 AM by Ben_Jamin »
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2013, 06:33:32 PM »
Edit: On to the the discussion above.  If we we're to live healthy lifestyles wouldn't that mean we're less likely to get sick and need less vaccines?
It would definitely help, but it wouldn't stop everything. Eating lots of fruits and veggies isn't going to stop a major outbreak of a disease. Good hygiene probably helps more.

Offline slycordinator

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2013, 11:27:28 AM »
Also, good public hygiene helps more. Like we don't have our streets filled with garbage. I recall that our hygiene and public health teacher had claimed that a study had concluded that in a certain number of decades where the US life expectancy increased by 30 years that 25 of those were attributed to public health ventures (like having a cleaner water supply, garbage disposal, etc) and 5 of the years attributed to changes in medicine.

Offline Lucien

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2013, 04:01:37 PM »
What's in vaccines that could possibly cause autism? The preservatives? I suppose testing them on humans would be unethical even though we give them to children anyways. I guess it would be ridiculously hard to find out whether or not they had autism before getting the vaccines as it is also genetic and the symptoms just aren't there when you're born.

As for me, when I have children, I think the .001 or whatever chance of development of autism is a chance I'm willing to take. Autism runs in my family by genetics, not through the use of vaccines.

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Offline j

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2013, 04:23:59 PM »
What's in vaccines that could possibly cause autism? The preservatives?

Nothing, according to every credible scientific outlet in the world.

Quote
I suppose testing them on humans would be unethical even though we give them to children anyways.

Huh?  They are tested in humans, fairly rigorous clinical trials are necessary for FDA approval.

-J

Offline Lucien

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2013, 04:38:58 PM »
Then I've lost sight of the problem. I'll just stick to my knowledge of the fact that Autism is a genetic disease.
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Offline j

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2013, 05:25:26 PM »
You were right to be skeptical about the problem to begin with, because there really isn't one.  The problem is just one of misinformation and a dumb populace buying into it.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2013, 05:34:27 PM »
Personally, I'd be more skeptical of anyone whose argument rests solely on discrediting anyone who disagrees with him as "not credible" and "dumb," without anything to back it up.  I quite often find that those who make such claims ignore quite a bit of credible evidence from not-so-dumb sources.
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Offline Lucien

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2013, 05:55:38 PM »
Personally, I'd be more skeptical of anyone whose argument rests solely on discrediting anyone who disagrees with him as "not credible" and "dumb," without anything to back it up.  I quite often find that those who make such claims ignore quite a bit of credible evidence from not-so-dumb sources.

I agree with this, but I still think smart sources can be sensational, and smart sources can be deceptive.
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Offline j

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2013, 06:45:47 PM »
Personally, I'd be more skeptical of anyone whose argument rests solely on discrediting anyone who disagrees with him as "not credible" and "dumb," without anything to back it up.  I quite often find that those who make such claims ignore quite a bit of credible evidence from not-so-dumb sources.

Nothing disagreeable about this post other than it is apparently supposed to address some bizarro version of my post?  I don't recall trying to "discredit" anyone or form any kind of argument, just to point out an erroneous belief.  There is a consensus across the scientific community that there has been shown to be no link between vaccines (MMR) and autism, corroborated by the CDC, AAP, NIH, and NHS among many others.  I suppose that might get the claim out of the realm of having "nothing to back it up." ::)

But I await this alleged "credible evidence from not-so-dumb sources" should you wish to provide it.

And of course you're right; he should be skeptical of me as well, and anything else he reads on an internet forum.

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2013, 12:26:06 AM »
Then I've lost sight of the problem. I'll just stick to my knowledge of the fact that Autism is a genetic disease.

I don't think that has really been proven, has it? The GI tract is incredibly important to our mental health and mental-going-ons, and a large part of that is non-genetic... hell it's not even us!

Offline Nick

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Re: The Vaccination Issue
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2013, 09:54:53 PM »
Just saw this, and reminded me of this thread.

http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vqjb0

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Offline Chino

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