Author Topic: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks  (Read 3039 times)

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Offline Rathma

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2013, 03:09:04 PM »
People on this forum are probably just as much if not more influenced subconsciously by Islamophobia and anti-Arabism as they are by anti-Semitism.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2013, 03:28:06 PM »
If anything, I'd be influenced by anti-Christianism, at least where I live.
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2013, 06:26:28 PM »
I see Israel's tactics; make small moves which are enough to raise a slight uproar, but not enough to start a serious confrontation.  Let time pass by so people become acclimated with the change and accept it as is.

Perfect example: The very first step in this whole entanglement was the taking of Arab land, by the British.  We have now been so acclimated by that, its no longer in the discussions.


Offline rumborak

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2013, 07:02:58 PM »
I personally separate Israel's "founding history" from recent history, just as the pilgrims never truly had any right to displace Native Americans, but it is a fait accompli. I see the Jews' right to a country of their own as indisputable, if only for the fact what our cumulative cultures have done to them (with my folks having been the spearhead of atrocities, but not followed far behind by others). I wish they had chosen a better place (like the Mormons did with Salt Lake City) and not the epicenter of religion-infused adrenaline, but that's the way it is for historical reasons.
So, I choose to look at the situation from a contemporary angle. There's two peoples that need to find an arrangement somehow.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2017, 03:36:27 PM »
Sorry for riving a zombie thread, but it's the right place for my question and is, yet again, topical. Just curious of the people who honestly know, why do people actually want to live in these settlements? Are they heavily subsidized or something? I understand why Israel wants them, but I don't get why somebody would actually want a home in a place as hotly contested.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2017, 03:43:27 PM »
Yay, something I can talk about!

I'll be home in a bit and I'll reply in more detail, but quickly yes they are heavily subsidized and cheap, and there's also people who are there for idealological reasons.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2017, 04:40:11 PM »
Sorry for riving a zombie thread, but it's the right place for my question and is, yet again, topical. Just curious of the people who honestly know, why do people actually want to live in these settlements? Are they heavily subsidized or something? I understand why Israel wants them, but I don't get why somebody would actually want a home in a place as hotly contested.

Alright, well, the settlements date back to the 60's (more or less), and originally they were meant as more of a temporary thing to use during diplomacy. They pushed for families to move there to help with that. So, on the one hand, you do have families that have been in the settlements for over 50 years. Some of those people stay there because that's where they were born, raised, etc. Then, as I said, the government REALLY pushes for people to move there. It's very cheap, compared to Israeli proper. A ton of government money goes into building infrastructure in the settlements, so you can get a really nice apartment for like 1/3 the price of a crappy place in Israel. So you have a lot of people who live there because  it's cheap. When you're very religious and don't have much of an income, and they ask you to live in what is sold as greater Israel, or biblical Israel, it's very appealing.

Then of course you have lots of people who are politically motivated to live in contested areas. Their mindset is that if you set up shop, it's yours. They prefer living in settlements because it's their way of fighting against the Palestinians in an attempt to incorporate as much of Palestine into Israel one day.

So it's a good amount of diversity, though I cannot condone a single aspect of it.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2017, 05:17:39 PM »

Then of course you have lots of people who are politically motivated to live in contested areas. Their mindset is that if you set up shop, it's yours.
Wonderful irony.

I assumed the part about the subsidies, but at the same time I just don't see the logic of "you can live here for cheap, and once or twice a year your neighbors might lob shells at you." I think I'd rather live in shithole in Brentwood than a palace in Compton.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2017, 05:23:41 PM »
People living in the settlements aren't prime targets for missiles. The rest of Israel is, specifically the people living right outside of Gaza. Now, if you want to know why those people stay there, you got me.

Plus, much the violence that happens between settlers and Palestinians is by the settlers against the Palestinians. And with virtually no legal consequences.

So there's another reason for some of the younger kids to stay there. They can go out, beat the hell out of Arabs, leftists and even Israelis who want to help Arabs and get told by the police/army "oh you kids, better run home while I question these Arabs about what they must have done to make you randomly beat them with a lead pipe".
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Offline 73109

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2017, 05:25:42 PM »
Interesting, if rage inducing doc on this whole subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DduUcPSU_TM

Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2017, 05:40:57 PM »
People living in the settlements aren't prime targets for missiles. The rest of Israel is, specifically the people living right outside of Gaza. Now, if you want to know why those people stay there, you got me.

Plus, much the violence that happens between settlers and Palestinians is by the settlers against the Palestinians. And with virtually no legal consequences.

So there's another reason for some of the younger kids to stay there. They can go out, beat the hell out of Arabs, leftists and even Israelis who want to help Arabs and get told by the police/army "oh you kids, better run home while I question these Arabs about what they must have done to make you randomly beat them with a lead pipe".
Far out. So why aren't the settlements targets? Lack of proximity? Seems to me a pretty decent way, if you're an evil ter'ist, that is, to discourage the settlements is to occasionally blow one or two of them to smithereens.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2017, 05:43:34 PM »
The missiles come out of Gaza, they usually either can't reach the settlements, or the Iron Dome intercepts them due to the distance. Plus, they usually don't aim at the West Bank for obvious reasons.

As far as why they're not victims of local violence, they are, but they are extremely well defended. Every settlement is protected by the army, getting to them isn't terribly easy, especially since many of the roads to/from the settlements are Jewish only roads.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2017, 09:36:01 AM »
With the new land law and Trump's position I guess the two state solution is officially dead. I can't predict at all what's to come.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2017, 12:08:55 PM »
Since Israel was brought up elsewhere, I'll ask the question in the proper thread. Was there any point whatsoever to shifting US policy re Jerusalem, other than to rile up the Arabs? We're no more or less beholden to Israel than we were last week. Nothing changes with regards to State. The move, if it ever happens, will be a decade away. I can't see that this does anything except shout the Arabic equivalent of chinga tu madre to the Arab world so we can denounce how violent they are and pat ourselves on the back for being so morally superior.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2017, 12:31:25 PM »
Since Israel was brought up elsewhere, I'll ask the question in the proper thread. Was there any point whatsoever to shifting US policy re Jerusalem, other than to rile up the Arabs? We're no more or less beholden to Israel than we were last week. Nothing changes with regards to State. The move, if it ever happens, will be a decade away. I can't see that this does anything except shout the Arabic equivalent of chinga tu madre to the Arab world so we can denounce how violent they are and pat ourselves on the back for being so morally superior.

To be fair, it also riles up non-horrible Jews such as myself.

But yea, you're right. It served no purpose at all other than to make the Israeli government feel super strong and important and give them some lube to collectively jerk off to the thought of their own importance.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2017, 01:07:58 PM »
I say this as a heathen, atheist, American, but I cannot relate in the slightest to anything that seems to be going on over there.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2017, 01:08:13 PM »
I'm just asking, though:  wasn't one of the stumbling blocks of real peace the fact that "Jerusalem" was in what would be the Palestinian state, under most two-state solutions?  Doesn't the statement - and it was carefully worded to NOT say "UNDIVIDED Jerusalem", kind of open the door for a setup that kind of looks a little like the Germany of 1980 (with East and West Germany, and East and West Berlin)?  So you have "Israel", and "Palestine", and within Palestine you have "Israeli Jerusalem" and "Palestinian Jerusalem"?   

Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2017, 01:14:06 PM »
I'm just asking, though:  wasn't one of the stumbling blocks of real peace the fact that "Jerusalem" was in what would be the Palestinian state, under most two-state solutions?  Doesn't the statement - and it was carefully worded to NOT say "UNDIVIDED Jerusalem", kind of open the door for a setup that kind of looks a little like the Germany of 1980 (with East and West Germany, and East and West Berlin)?  So you have "Israel", and "Palestine", and within Palestine you have "Israeli Jerusalem" and "Palestinian Jerusalem"?

No. The statement does nothing but piss people off.

Also it's like if I talk about LA and then am like "well clearly I was only talking about south LA". When you say the name of the city, you mean the city. If he wanted to mean West Jerusalem, he could have said West Jerusalem. He chose not to.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2017, 01:20:45 PM »
And I don't understand how that would be an improvement anyway. Part of the problem for peace is that they want a city in their own territory, so we'll just keep it for ourselves?

And of course all of this revolves around the idea that the US and Israel want peace in the first place. Peace removes the pretense of threat deterrence, and that's a big loss to people desperate for power.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson