Author Topic: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks  (Read 5258 times)

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Offline Rathma

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2013, 03:09:04 PM »
People on this forum are probably just as much if not more influenced subconsciously by Islamophobia and anti-Arabism as they are by anti-Semitism.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2013, 03:28:06 PM »
If anything, I'd be influenced by anti-Christianism, at least where I live.
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2013, 06:26:28 PM »
I see Israel's tactics; make small moves which are enough to raise a slight uproar, but not enough to start a serious confrontation.  Let time pass by so people become acclimated with the change and accept it as is.

Perfect example: The very first step in this whole entanglement was the taking of Arab land, by the British.  We have now been so acclimated by that, its no longer in the discussions.


Offline rumborak

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2013, 07:02:58 PM »
I personally separate Israel's "founding history" from recent history, just as the pilgrims never truly had any right to displace Native Americans, but it is a fait accompli. I see the Jews' right to a country of their own as indisputable, if only for the fact what our cumulative cultures have done to them (with my folks having been the spearhead of atrocities, but not followed far behind by others). I wish they had chosen a better place (like the Mormons did with Salt Lake City) and not the epicenter of religion-infused adrenaline, but that's the way it is for historical reasons.
So, I choose to look at the situation from a contemporary angle. There's two peoples that need to find an arrangement somehow.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2017, 03:36:27 PM »
Sorry for riving a zombie thread, but it's the right place for my question and is, yet again, topical. Just curious of the people who honestly know, why do people actually want to live in these settlements? Are they heavily subsidized or something? I understand why Israel wants them, but I don't get why somebody would actually want a home in a place as hotly contested.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2017, 03:43:27 PM »
Yay, something I can talk about!

I'll be home in a bit and I'll reply in more detail, but quickly yes they are heavily subsidized and cheap, and there's also people who are there for idealological reasons.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2017, 04:40:11 PM »
Sorry for riving a zombie thread, but it's the right place for my question and is, yet again, topical. Just curious of the people who honestly know, why do people actually want to live in these settlements? Are they heavily subsidized or something? I understand why Israel wants them, but I don't get why somebody would actually want a home in a place as hotly contested.

Alright, well, the settlements date back to the 60's (more or less), and originally they were meant as more of a temporary thing to use during diplomacy. They pushed for families to move there to help with that. So, on the one hand, you do have families that have been in the settlements for over 50 years. Some of those people stay there because that's where they were born, raised, etc. Then, as I said, the government REALLY pushes for people to move there. It's very cheap, compared to Israeli proper. A ton of government money goes into building infrastructure in the settlements, so you can get a really nice apartment for like 1/3 the price of a crappy place in Israel. So you have a lot of people who live there because  it's cheap. When you're very religious and don't have much of an income, and they ask you to live in what is sold as greater Israel, or biblical Israel, it's very appealing.

Then of course you have lots of people who are politically motivated to live in contested areas. Their mindset is that if you set up shop, it's yours. They prefer living in settlements because it's their way of fighting against the Palestinians in an attempt to incorporate as much of Palestine into Israel one day.

So it's a good amount of diversity, though I cannot condone a single aspect of it.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2017, 05:17:39 PM »

Then of course you have lots of people who are politically motivated to live in contested areas. Their mindset is that if you set up shop, it's yours.
Wonderful irony.

I assumed the part about the subsidies, but at the same time I just don't see the logic of "you can live here for cheap, and once or twice a year your neighbors might lob shells at you." I think I'd rather live in shithole in Brentwood than a palace in Compton.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2017, 05:23:41 PM »
People living in the settlements aren't prime targets for missiles. The rest of Israel is, specifically the people living right outside of Gaza. Now, if you want to know why those people stay there, you got me.

Plus, much the violence that happens between settlers and Palestinians is by the settlers against the Palestinians. And with virtually no legal consequences.

So there's another reason for some of the younger kids to stay there. They can go out, beat the hell out of Arabs, leftists and even Israelis who want to help Arabs and get told by the police/army "oh you kids, better run home while I question these Arabs about what they must have done to make you randomly beat them with a lead pipe".
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Offline 73109

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2017, 05:25:42 PM »
Interesting, if rage inducing doc on this whole subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DduUcPSU_TM

Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2017, 05:40:57 PM »
People living in the settlements aren't prime targets for missiles. The rest of Israel is, specifically the people living right outside of Gaza. Now, if you want to know why those people stay there, you got me.

Plus, much the violence that happens between settlers and Palestinians is by the settlers against the Palestinians. And with virtually no legal consequences.

So there's another reason for some of the younger kids to stay there. They can go out, beat the hell out of Arabs, leftists and even Israelis who want to help Arabs and get told by the police/army "oh you kids, better run home while I question these Arabs about what they must have done to make you randomly beat them with a lead pipe".
Far out. So why aren't the settlements targets? Lack of proximity? Seems to me a pretty decent way, if you're an evil ter'ist, that is, to discourage the settlements is to occasionally blow one or two of them to smithereens.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2017, 05:43:34 PM »
The missiles come out of Gaza, they usually either can't reach the settlements, or the Iron Dome intercepts them due to the distance. Plus, they usually don't aim at the West Bank for obvious reasons.

As far as why they're not victims of local violence, they are, but they are extremely well defended. Every settlement is protected by the army, getting to them isn't terribly easy, especially since many of the roads to/from the settlements are Jewish only roads.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2017, 09:36:01 AM »
With the new land law and Trump's position I guess the two state solution is officially dead. I can't predict at all what's to come.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2017, 12:08:55 PM »
Since Israel was brought up elsewhere, I'll ask the question in the proper thread. Was there any point whatsoever to shifting US policy re Jerusalem, other than to rile up the Arabs? We're no more or less beholden to Israel than we were last week. Nothing changes with regards to State. The move, if it ever happens, will be a decade away. I can't see that this does anything except shout the Arabic equivalent of chinga tu madre to the Arab world so we can denounce how violent they are and pat ourselves on the back for being so morally superior.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2017, 12:31:25 PM »
Since Israel was brought up elsewhere, I'll ask the question in the proper thread. Was there any point whatsoever to shifting US policy re Jerusalem, other than to rile up the Arabs? We're no more or less beholden to Israel than we were last week. Nothing changes with regards to State. The move, if it ever happens, will be a decade away. I can't see that this does anything except shout the Arabic equivalent of chinga tu madre to the Arab world so we can denounce how violent they are and pat ourselves on the back for being so morally superior.

To be fair, it also riles up non-horrible Jews such as myself.

But yea, you're right. It served no purpose at all other than to make the Israeli government feel super strong and important and give them some lube to collectively jerk off to the thought of their own importance.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2017, 01:07:58 PM »
I say this as a heathen, atheist, American, but I cannot relate in the slightest to anything that seems to be going on over there.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2017, 01:08:13 PM »
I'm just asking, though:  wasn't one of the stumbling blocks of real peace the fact that "Jerusalem" was in what would be the Palestinian state, under most two-state solutions?  Doesn't the statement - and it was carefully worded to NOT say "UNDIVIDED Jerusalem", kind of open the door for a setup that kind of looks a little like the Germany of 1980 (with East and West Germany, and East and West Berlin)?  So you have "Israel", and "Palestine", and within Palestine you have "Israeli Jerusalem" and "Palestinian Jerusalem"?   

Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2017, 01:14:06 PM »
I'm just asking, though:  wasn't one of the stumbling blocks of real peace the fact that "Jerusalem" was in what would be the Palestinian state, under most two-state solutions?  Doesn't the statement - and it was carefully worded to NOT say "UNDIVIDED Jerusalem", kind of open the door for a setup that kind of looks a little like the Germany of 1980 (with East and West Germany, and East and West Berlin)?  So you have "Israel", and "Palestine", and within Palestine you have "Israeli Jerusalem" and "Palestinian Jerusalem"?

No. The statement does nothing but piss people off.

Also it's like if I talk about LA and then am like "well clearly I was only talking about south LA". When you say the name of the city, you mean the city. If he wanted to mean West Jerusalem, he could have said West Jerusalem. He chose not to.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2017, 01:20:45 PM »
And I don't understand how that would be an improvement anyway. Part of the problem for peace is that they want a city in their own territory, so we'll just keep it for ourselves?

And of course all of this revolves around the idea that the US and Israel want peace in the first place. Peace removes the pretense of threat deterrence, and that's a big loss to people desperate for power.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2018, 02:37:28 PM »
Moved from other thread:

That was my high-level assessment as well. I don't see it as much of an FU as much of a "Hey, we're doing our own thing here, deal with it." That could be perceived as an FU though, so I get your point. I like the notion of not following convention just because it is there, but concede it shouldn't be trampled with no reason other than to trample it.

I know there is a thread about Israel so didn't want to make it a big topic in this one. Will carry this via PM with you and Adami if necessary, or move to the other thread.
I tend to agree about not being necessarily deferential to convention. If something needs to change then change it. The problem, or one of them, is that Grabby essentially ran on a platform of "fuck convention," which means he needs to exercise that practice from time to time. Again, not a bad thing per se, but pick good opportunities to do it. Don't just dump on the norm so you can say you did.

Also, aside from the giant Fuck You, it also serves to rile up the Moslems. You can argue that they should get over it, or that they're always riled up anyway, but chucking rocks at hornet's nests just for grins is a silly thing to do.

If the continuum has told you once it's told you a thousand times. DON'T PROVOKE THE BORG!
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2018, 02:59:26 PM »
While I agree you shouldn't kick the hornet's nest for giggles, you shouldn't be so afraid of upsetting the hornets to the point where you let their sensibilities, regardless of rational or reason, dictate your every decision. What it those hornets get pissed off if you walk under their nest? Or hang a plant nearby? If hanging a plant nearby offends their sensibilities to the point where they feel the need to swarm you, I think it's fair to say "I'm hanging this damn plant here, and if you want to swarm me because it offends you, you are going to get hit with a bug bomb."

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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2018, 03:00:50 PM »
It's actually much more complicated and nuanced from a Middle Eastern perspective, especially given the timing with the Palestinian unity talks and various provocations responses, as well as the entire social/political structure of the region.


But from a strictly American/Trump perspective, Bart's got the basic gist of it. I assume most people are only interested in the American perspective anyway, since most people here are Americans.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2018, 03:07:51 PM »
While I agree you shouldn't kick the hornet's nest for giggles, you shouldn't be so afraid of upsetting the hornets to the point where you let their sensibilities, regardless of rational or reason, dictate your every decision. What it those hornets get pissed off if you walk under their nest? Or hang a plant nearby? If hanging a plant nearby offends their sensibilities to the point where they feel the need to swarm you, I think it's fair to say "I'm hanging this damn plant here, and if you want to swarm me because it offends you, you are going to get hit with a bug bomb."
Insofar as the metaphor goes I agree with you. But Trump isn't trying to hang a plant. He's merely throwing rocks at them to give his evangelical supporters something to think about while dutifully attempt to conceive their 7th child.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2018, 03:10:14 PM »
Given the specific timing of the announcement, pleasing the evangelicals was likely just a natural bonus.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2018, 03:14:08 PM »
Where is the nuance in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo#Muhammad_cartoons_and_aftermath

"Anything that can hurt the convictions of someone else, in particular religious convictions, should be avoided", Chirac said. Of course we should avoid "hurting the convictions" of someone else? But some of those people (not just in the Middle East) get so damned hurt and offended by the most mundane crap.

I fully agree with you Barto on this, don't get me wrong. I was looking at the bigger picture here.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2018, 03:21:59 PM »
That event has absolutely nothing at all to do with this. So I have no idea why my use of the word nuance to describe this situation has anything to do with the Muhammad cartoons. Unless you're simply seeing this as "muslims getting angry at stuff they shouldn't get angry at".
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2018, 03:29:01 PM »
The short answer is simply that if they're prone to going off for silly reasons, don't give them legitimate reasons for no gain.

The more complex answer is that the percentage of Moslems that'll flip out over over a cartoon are relatively small. It's a slight and nothing more. The percentage of people willing to lose their shit over decades of oppression is significantly greater. Both the offense and the militancy of the offended are variable. The sensible thing is to consider both and then choose your "fuck yous" accordingly.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2018, 04:07:13 PM »
Didn't we promise to do exactly this about three Presidents ago?   Why then, if we promised to do it, didn't rescind that promise for the better part of 20 years, and accommodated others who were moving in that direction, is this necessarily a "bad" decision?   I totally get that times change, and a good decision in 1990 may not (is likely not) a good decision in 2017, but that's not the dialogue.   It's that we're "pissing off the world".   I'm not defending Trump here - this is not my area of expertise - just asking questions. 

Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2018, 04:08:17 PM »
Well, I've tried to point out that it's not so simple, but I was kind of ignored.

If anyone actually wants to know about this beyond a Trump/America perspective, feel free to ask. Otherwise, I'm out.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2018, 04:23:16 PM »
I did ask, but I recognize it isn't the duty of forum members to educate me on geopolitical issues. Adami offered, and I appreciate his offer. If someone can direct me to an unbiased (does this exist any more?) resource, I would appreciate that as well.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2018, 05:50:52 PM »
Well, I've tried to point out that it's not so simple, but I was kind of ignored.

If anyone actually wants to know about this beyond a Trump/America perspective, feel free to ask. Otherwise, I'm out.

With those ground rules and caveats, is it possible to answer the question "why is it bad now and it wasn't bad when we signed the treaty agreeing to do it?"   

Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2018, 06:11:14 PM »
It was bad then too.

Iím going out now, when I get back later tonight I can write up a more detail explanation from a Middle Eastern perspective.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2018, 11:00:54 AM »
So, I'm sure plenty of people here will find arguments against the points I'm making here, and that's fine. There's always arguments for just about anything.

That said, here's why this is a lot more complicated than just "Trump does something meaningless and pisses off a bunch of terrorist Muslims"

First, when Israel first agreed to statehood with the international community, it did not include Jerusalem. Yes, the Palestinians did not agree to anything, and one could make the "well then screw them" argument, but either way, Israel agreed to a state without Jerusalem, and marked Tel Aviv as their capital. Last I checked, acquisition by conquest isn't rewarded anymore. Now, this is all just a minor part, so don't think of this as the crux of the argument.

As all of you know, ownership of Jerusalem is a very controversial topic. Israelis want the whole city. Palestinians want the whole city. There has been some kind of assumption that Israelis will be happy with West Jerusalem as their capital, and Palestinian with East Jerusalem. First problem to that is, the old city is in East Jerusalem, and no people are willing to give that part up. Secondly, there is no official West or East Jerusalem, there's only unofficial designations. No official recognized border that either people are operating in. Israel is currently occupying all of Jerusalem, and exerting legal and military control over East Jerusalem. So they are the de facto rulers of all of Jerusalem, without legal recognition or right to do so, even by the Israeli high courts (which the government basically just ignores). So from a power differential standpoint, Israel has a hugely uneven position since Palestinians have literally no say, no power, and no legal rights that Israel needs to grant them. This results in Israel allowing Jews to build as much as they want, and not allowing Palestinians to build at all. It also selectively recognizes the right to return, allowing Jews to reclaim buildings they once owned in the past and forcing out current Palestinian tenants, while not allowing Palestinians to claim any land they were expelled from.

This is, partially, why the idea of recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital was always a bad idea without any actual legal, enforced borders or anything in place. It's all just way too vague and not practical. So Stadler, I will never argue that it was fine that they vowed to do it back then. I think most presidents realized this and didn't act on it, for that very reason.

Now, why is it the timing suspicious? Because not too long before the recognition, the two major Palestinian political groups Hamas and Fatah began truly working on reconciliation. For a little bit of background, the groups had a major fall out around 2005/2006 when Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza. Since then, Hamas has remained in dictator like control of the strip, while Fatah was in The West Bank. They have tried multiple attempts at reconciliation over the years but have never gotten far. This was the first time progress was really being made. Reconciliation would be very bad news for Israel because it would represent a potential for stability, which Israel doesn't want for them. Also during the reconciliation, Hamas announced that it did NOT want a war with Israel. Various Salafi Jihadists in the strip began shooting rockets at Israel, and Israel retaliated by bombing Hamas (dumb), but then Hamas began arresting and dealing with the Salafis, instead of attacking Israel. This demonstrated that the status quo might have to change soon, and Israel does NOT want the status quo changing.

So you have Palestinian reconciliation, and Hamas actually wanting to act peacefully for a change. And then, all of the sudden, Trump, who Bibi has a lot of influence on, decides to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital. And Trump did not say West Jerusalem. He merely said Jerusalem. Which implies the whole city. Just like if I said Los Angeles, no one would have any reason to assume I only meant East LA or was excluding East LA.

First, the consequences? Nothing substantial. Passports aren't being changed. Embassies aren't being moved (at least not America's, or any important ones). It's literally nothing at all but throwing fuel on a fire to make it explode. Immediately there were days of rage (all very very predictable) and Israel was able to go right back to the status quo of killing over 20 Palestinians, arresting hundreds and detaining them without charge, and bombing Gaza at will. Israel needed this to retain absolute control and power.

It would be like the bloods and the crypts. Both violent gang members, sure. But imagine there was a period of quiet between them, and the police didn't like that, so they anonymously, called the leader of the bloods and told him that they saw his girl getting banged by the crypts leader or something. Bam. Gang war for no reason what so ever other than to maintain the status quo.

Now, why would the Israeli government want this? Because fear of Palestinians is the only thing keeping them in power. Without war, without righteous violence against Arabs, without the "they just want to kill all of us for no reason" narrative, the current government loses all of its power. So they will maintain war, violence, and fear at any cost.


If anyone has any questions, I am more than happy to help where I can.

Not sure if any of this was helpful, but who knows?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 11:08:52 AM by Adami »
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