Author Topic: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation  (Read 255977 times)

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Online El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2100 on: August 28, 2015, 11:47:38 AM »
As crap as Nemesis is, Nemesis is still a miles better movie than Into Darkness. I still haven't gotten all the way through a second viewing of Into Darkness.
What was the point of rebooting the entire universe when those hacks still couldn't come up with a single original idea? Then they tried to sneakily hide the fact it was a ripoff as long as possible by making awful casting choices. If you're going to rip off a classic, at least pay some respect to it. The big "reveal" that it was Khan could not have fallen flatter, because the characters had no clue who it was. Tell us who you are. I'm bob. Oh, ok bob. That means nothing to us. Oh wait, the better older Spock from the better older universe tells us you're dangerous. Sorry, bob.
I'm kind of torn on this. At the end of the day I'd probably go with ID as the better movie, mostly because the characters are better. Even the reboot TOS characters are more interesting than the real TNG crew. Moreover, while I agree that making him Khan was an awful thing to do, John Harrison was actually a much better villain than the fake-Picard.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2101 on: August 28, 2015, 12:42:03 PM »
Yeh Benedict played his part a lot better than Tom Hardy. But to be fair on Hardy - it was a very early role for him and he is much better in later films.


If he had been John Harrison for the entire film - just a leader of a genetically engineered group of people who gets singled out to perform a task whilst Marcus holds his friends to ransom - and then he

plots his scheme to wreak revenge on Starfleet for creating them purely to be used as super human slaves and also holding his friends hostage as blackmail.

.. that would have been better. He wasn't Khan - as much as I enjoyed Cumberbatch's performance.

AND the warp core scene would have been a lot better if they'd ONLY not just repeated the same dialogue VERBATIM. There was no need for that at all.

Pretty much enjoyed everything else about it. That Crash Scene.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2102 on: August 28, 2015, 06:08:26 PM »
For once, I am in full agreement with Kotowboy.     ID has its faults, but it was played fairly well.   Making John Harrison into Khan was an extremely poor choice.   And while I liked the warp core scene when I first saw it in the theater, it didn't hold up on repeated viewings...at...all... 

Nemesis is just absolute crap.   Out of all 12 movies, Nemesis is the only one that I genuinely despise and I pretty much just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.

Insurrection, in spite of feeling a bit too much like a TNG episode, is my favorite of all the Star Trek movies.   I really think it was a bad idea to give up on Frakes directing the films.   First Contact did really well (and is most people's favorite TNG film) and while Insurrection had lukewarm reviews, most people have not expressed outright hatred for it.   I think most people just thought it was "meh" film, and certainly a letdown after FC.     I just think Frakes deserved another chance.   
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2103 on: August 29, 2015, 12:43:38 AM »
I'm kind of torn on this. At the end of the day I'd probably go with ID as the better movie, mostly because the characters are better. Even the reboot TOS characters are more interesting than the real TNG crew. Moreover, while I agree that making him Khan was an awful thing to do, John Harrison was actually a much better villain than the fake-Picard.

But you've always had a thing against the TNG crew.
I do agree that John Harrison would have been a better villian than Shinzon had he been his own character, instead of a piss-weak substitute for Khan, but unfortunately they made him a piss-weak substitution for Khan, which raised too many problems that made no sense at all not only to the character of Khan (and no, "alternate universe" is not an excuse for any of it), but also the entire plot of the movie itself as a self contained unit, which became a poor parody of Trek as a result.
Given all of that, I'd still say ID is the worse Trek movie. I'm not arguing Nemesis is a good movie, but if I'm measuring the number of times I yelled at the screen throughout, ID fared so much worse.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 12:52:49 AM by BlobVanDam »
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2104 on: August 29, 2015, 06:00:06 AM »
I'd still say ID is the worse Trek movie. I'm not arguing Nemesis is a good movie, but if I'm measuring the number of times I yelled at the screen throughout, ID fared so much worse.
I agree.  ID is the only ST film that left me feeling angry after watching.

I've felt disappointed by several of the others, and bored to tears after the first one, but angry only after ID.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2105 on: August 29, 2015, 06:04:35 AM »
I shame all of you for not picking a Star Trek movie as the worst if it's not directed by Shatner.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2106 on: August 29, 2015, 09:41:06 AM »
I've felt disappointed by several of the others, and bored to tears after the first one, but angry only after ID.

Likewise. Star Trek doesn't have a great hit-rate when it comes to the movies, but ID was uniquely bad.

I shame all of you for not picking a Star Trek movie as the worst if it's not directed by Shatner.

But TFF is amazingly bad. :lol It's a movie length episode of TOS, and stupidly fun.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2107 on: August 29, 2015, 10:14:56 AM »
I've felt disappointed by several of the others, and bored to tears after the first one, but angry only after ID.

Likewise. Star Trek doesn't have a great hit-rate when it comes to the movies, but ID was uniquely bad.


I think it's because the Abrams films barely even feel like Star Trek anymore, so the nostalgic factor is no longer there.  I can watch The Final Frontier and, as bad as it is, still enjoy watching it because it has that old-school Trek charm (plus I respect the concept, even if the execution was terrible).  Conversely, Into Darkness is just frustrating to watch because it lacks that charm and just feels like a standard modern space action movie with mind-numbingly incompetent writing.  Final Frontier is bad, but it's bad in a uniquely Trek way, and that gives it a modicum of entertainment value; Into Darkness just feels generic in it's failures.

Offline Nefarius

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2108 on: September 01, 2015, 02:55:21 AM »
Many pages back I posted several updates about a friend who asked me to "teach Star Trek" to her. Many weekends of TV shows and good food later, we're done with my "curriculum" now, having watched about 25% of TOS, 30% of TNG, 45% of DS9, 15% of VOY, 40% of ENT and all movies. We've also watched a lot of other stuff in between including all of American Dad, Avatar TLA/TLOK, Boston Legal, Futurama, Sherlock and various other movies.

We'll probably take a break from scifi for a while now, maybe watch Penny Dreadful and complete Gargoyles before tackling Firefly and Babylon 5.

But I must have done something right as she wasn't scared away by the B5 DVD-Box and another 100+ episodes show we're going to watch in full at all as she's come to trust in my prediction that she'll like it. Plus she also said "we can always watch more Trek episodes in between". :heart

It's a real joy to introduce someone else to something you love so much and get such positive response.
Can't wait to continue that journey!

Greetings...
Nef


Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2109 on: September 01, 2015, 07:19:41 AM »
Nef, you are doing a great service to Trekdom, and to mankind in general.  :tup

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2110 on: September 06, 2015, 03:04:03 PM »
Just Watched "Coda" the Voyager episode. Not bad. I prefer darker Voyager episodes.

Not sure if it was trying to "say" anything about an afterlife or people who believe in one but it was not a bad episode.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2111 on: September 06, 2015, 10:09:58 PM »
Star Trek was usually not ballsy enough to try to make any definitive statements about the afterlife/religion, so I'm not sure it was trying to make any point in that regard. I recall that being an average but not bad episode, like you said.
For dark moments in Voyager, I liked the Vidiians, because it was only about survival for them. Friendship One is also quite bleak even though they sorta fix up the problem in the end.
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Offline abydos

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2112 on: September 07, 2015, 11:07:17 AM »
Some years ago after I watched TNG for the first time in its entirety (in the 90s I only caught random episodes here and there), I started watching Voyager but I quickly gave up on it after a few episodes. It just seemed so much worse (no character caught my attention too) after watching TNG, Babylon 5 and DS9 pretty much back to back. Does it get significantly better later and does it have a proper end or was it cancelled?

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2113 on: September 07, 2015, 01:43:11 PM »
Voyager has a proper end but it's a really lame finale. Nowhere near s great as " All Good Things ".

And Enterprise was cancelled AND had a terrible finale.

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2114 on: September 07, 2015, 03:07:28 PM »
Voyager does not get significantly better.  It gets a little better.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2115 on: September 07, 2015, 03:18:30 PM »
Voyager ending is basically

" Yay we're back to Earth THE END "

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2116 on: September 07, 2015, 10:19:28 PM »
Voyager does not get significantly better.  It gets a little better.

It gets a little better at S3. It gets significantly better once it hits S4.

The only Trek series to get canceled were TOS and ENT, and all but TOS have proper endings. I'd say Voyager's finale is quite a good episode, but as a finale it doesn't give any payoff, like Kotowboy said. DS9 managed to get that absolutely perfect.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 10:30:05 PM by BlobVanDam »
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Offline Nefarius

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2117 on: September 08, 2015, 02:33:40 AM »
And Enterprise was cancelled AND had a terrible finale.

But I have to say those beauty shots of the 1701-D and the end with three ships and three voices make me smile and sigh every time. And increasingly so with the passing of time as the nostalgia factor grows for every year without some real Trek.

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2118 on: September 08, 2015, 02:45:08 AM »
That last bit was nice on its own (perhaps the only redeeming factor of the episode), but coupled with the fact the whole episode was wrapped in a TNG holodeck framework made for a spit in the face finale to the cast who featured on the show for 4 seasons. I get that they were trying to make it a send-off to the Trek franchise as a whole, but it was overall a garbage episode, and understandably a lot of people were not happy about it.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Nefarius

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2119 on: September 08, 2015, 03:21:32 AM »
Agreed, the holodeck thing was a fun concept for any other episode but a very bad choice for a finale. The random "we need drama, let's kill someone" didn't help much either.

The 1701-D freshly rendered though... niiiice! :metal

Greetings...
Nef

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2120 on: September 08, 2015, 04:24:05 AM »
Voyager does not get significantly better.  It gets a little better.

It gets a little better at S3. It gets significantly better once it hits S4.

The only Trek series to get canceled were TOS and ENT, and all but TOS have proper endings. I'd say Voyager's finale is quite a good episode, but as a finale it doesn't give any payoff, like Kotowboy said. DS9 managed to get that absolutely perfect.


I hate any episode where the problem is resolved and it immediately goes to credits. No wrap up or anything.


Voyager should have had scenes of them meeting up with their families again after 7 years away and settling down and things like that. And what happens to the EMH now he's no longer needed ?

It was like " We're home! CREDITS "

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2121 on: September 08, 2015, 04:35:44 AM »
I agree. I've never liked episodes of shows that end immediately as the conflict is resolved, because I want not only the conclusion, but the emotional payoff to that conclusion.
That was especially so with Endgame, given how much these characters wanted to catch up with their loved ones, and also I wanted to see the reaction to all of the stuff Voyager had done in their 7 year trip, like the EMH with his developing personality and mobile emitter, 7 of 9 being de-Borged, the future ablative armour and upgrades on Voyager, and a bunch of other stuff.

I liked that DS9 wrapped up most of the show's arc about 2/3 of the way into the finale, leaving about half an hour just to give each character their own closure. Nothing felt unresolved or left hanging. It was the most satisfying finale imo. Not necessarily better than AGT, but given that DS9 didn't continue on in film, more satisfying.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Online King Postwhore

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2122 on: September 08, 2015, 04:59:52 AM »
Durring the original TAG run my dad came up with what he called the :52 resolution.   Where the resolution to the conflict ends 52 minutes into the show.  It never failed.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2123 on: September 08, 2015, 05:12:29 AM »
TNG ?


That would definitely never fail since the episodes are 45 minutes long :neverusethis:

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2124 on: September 08, 2015, 05:20:14 AM »
Opps.  Yeah.  TNG.  It never failed.  :lol
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2125 on: September 08, 2015, 05:41:27 AM »
They're still only 45 minutes.

On BBC2 they had no ad breaks so they were probably 60 minutes with ads.

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2126 on: September 08, 2015, 05:49:18 AM »
Oh always adds.  Can't do that now on reruns but the first run of the show its timing was dead on :52.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2127 on: September 08, 2015, 08:25:55 AM »
Voyager does not get significantly better.  It gets a little better.

It gets a little better at S3. It gets significantly better once it hits S4.

Okay, it did get significantly better in S4, but I always felt that the improvements came at a cost, and underscored other things they still managed to fail on, which marred the improvements in my mind.  They dumped Kes, who I liked, in order to bring on the boobalicious Borg babe.  Fortunately, the Borg-related stories tended to be pretty well done, but it still felt like they'd brought in an established "species" (the Borg) because they didn't know how to work with the crew they had.  Exploring Kes' two-year lifespan could have been really interesting, and they could even have used that to write her off, but they apparently forgot about that aspect of her character.  The initial makeup of the crew being half Federation and half Maquis should have led to some great conflicts; instead it was barely addressed.  Harry Kim got hints of character growth here and there, but after seven years he was still an ensign.  Not even a field promotion for saving the ship a few times.  Exploring Beh'lanna being half-Klingon, half-Human could have been interesting, but instead it was just a source of non-stop cliches.  So yeah, once it became "The 7 of 9 Show Starring Jeri Ryan" it did get better, but it was practically a different show, and it still had a lot of the problems it had before.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2128 on: September 08, 2015, 08:41:02 AM »
I can't really argue any of that. They didn't ever fix the fundamental problems of abandoning their original premise, but they did manage to realize their strengths and play to them a lot better once they hit S4.

I had nothing against Kes, but I don't think the show lost anything by dumping her, because she was rarely utilized. Bringing in a former Borg opened up a lot of ideas, and the EMH character developed once he got the mobile emitter in the middle of S3. And they focused more on the scifi/action type stories that didn't rely so heavily on the weaker cast, and they managed to do those types of episodes better than the other Trek series imo, thanks to the complete switch to CGI.

It didn't reach the strength of TNG/DS9, but I think it's a respectable part of the Trek family.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Online El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2129 on: September 08, 2015, 08:44:48 AM »
Some years ago after I watched TNG for the first time in its entirety (in the 90s I only caught random episodes here and there), I started watching Voyager but I quickly gave up on it after a few episodes. It just seemed so much worse (no character caught my attention too) after watching TNG, Babylon 5 and DS9 pretty much back to back. Does it get significantly better later and does it have a proper end or was it cancelled?
All ST series have their bad, their average and their good episodes, with a smattering of Godawful and brilliant ones tossed in. I've found all of the series to be about the same with the bulk of them, with the only real difference being the number of brilliant ones. TNG and DS9 certainly had the most really exceptional episodes, but for the most part we're looking at a very slight difference in quality between the series once they all average out. VOY is just like the others in that you'll see good, bad and ugly with a couple of great ones here and there. It's possible you just stumbled across some bad/average ones. That's why you really have to stick with these things if you haven't seen them through before.

As for conclusions, DS9 did it right but that was the simple part since they'd been working the same story for 4 years. It was easy for them to spend the first hour ending the war and the second hour wrapping everything else up. All Good Things was a great episode, but it really just seemed like a great episode to me more than a conclusion to the thing. The day after Picard got his marbles back they were going to be rescuing refugees, studying some stellar phenomenon and killing time in the holodeck paripicpaing in far more entertaining realities than their own, just like every day for the last 7 years.

I understand why VOY ended the way it did, and providing closure to everything would have taken another 45 minutes or so which it didn't have. This wasn't DS9 where the final battle had been fought the week before. The only way to really do that would have been for Q to show up and say, "well, here you go, Merry Christmas" and blink them home so they could spend time wrapping it all up. Add to that I doubt it would have been as rewarding as people wanted. I'm fine with letting my imagination provide the closure, because there's a lot of stuff that they never would have hit upon. If you think about it the 4 weeks of debriefing Janeway would have been fantastic, and not something they could have done.

Besides, the best part of the post-return conclusion would have been when the temporal investigations guys showed up and said "hey, that was great try, way to go, but, uh, no!" and sent them right back to where they were, tossing future Janeway into some sort of prison.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2130 on: September 08, 2015, 09:18:13 AM »
The temporal agent dudes from Trials and Tribblelations would have crapped their pants at that one. :lol

I've said it before, but for all Trek series but TOS, I think the first two seasons were easily the weakest, then they all had a sudden improvement, each for their own clearly identifiable reasons.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2131 on: September 15, 2015, 04:34:20 PM »
Kes arrested for indecent exposure


What did she leave the house with no make up on ? :neverusethis:

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2132 on: September 15, 2015, 04:40:01 PM »
Damn, that's so sad.  She's apparently gone off the deep end.

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2133 on: September 15, 2015, 05:17:00 PM »
Man, talk about not giving a fuck.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Threaderation
« Reply #2134 on: September 15, 2015, 10:12:42 PM »
Crazy. You wouldn't even recognize her either.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.