Author Topic: Native Americans?  (Read 5539 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2016, 06:56:00 AM »
I had family first arrive on this continent in the mid 1600s, some of whom created children with the natives. I have blood in me from Canada, France, Italy, Ireland, and Albania as well. I'm as much of an American mutt as one can be.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2016, 08:14:57 AM »
I use specific labels (Cherokee, Seminole, Navajo, Irish, German) when speaking of specific people or individuals - or specific tribes/nationalities.

Native American/American Indian/First Nation/whatever is a label that is only useful when talking about broad generalities or perhaps on government/employment forms (they don't list all the European nations, either - they only say White or perhaps Caucasian).

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2016, 02:35:18 PM »
 My god. So much is happening yet you guys don't give two shits about it....how sad
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2016, 02:39:04 PM »
It's sad how we get treated
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2016, 02:45:31 PM »
???  What do you mean?
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Offline Genowyn

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2016, 02:56:00 PM »
I can only speak to how the First Nations in my own country are treated and it is by and large appalling. Certainly historically what with residential schools, but even in recent years. Police in areas with high native populations do some pretty monstrous shit , not to mention the federal government ignoring the numerous deaths and disappearances of young first nations women "Not on our radar".

Our new government has promised to at least address the missing and murdered women, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. The UN has found that the difference in quality of life between a northern reservation and, say, Toronto, is akin to that between a third world country and ourselves. High suicide rates, poor food security, high rates of violence and crime (if you look at the statistics of where the highest crime rates in Canada are, they are almost 100% in and around large native communities).

But where do we even begin to fix these kinds of problems? Many reservations contain pretty valuable resources that might help them economically if they were accessed, but these communities don't have the resources to start mining for uranium or digging for oil even if they wanted to, which many understandably do not. And at that point corporations are happy to offer to help set up the infrastructure, but then who ends up profiting, who ends up employed at the mines and oil fields? Not the first nations, I guarantee you that.

The food security problem is a whole other can of worms. Many reservations simply don't contain any arable land, whether because that's where we put them or they're so far north there's permafrost, so many communities are left with basically two options: Hunting/Fishing, which is fine but hardly secure, or (and this is what happens) having shipments of awful, cheap, unhealthy crap brought in from outside. And I say it's cheap but of course it's quite expensive to buy once it's on the reservation, and since many of them have no real economies to speak of, how are people affording to buy anything at all?

It's such a huge clusterfuck and so goddamn depressing.

So ben_jamin it is terrible that native issues in the US are basically ignored, but you can trust me that for many of us in the great white north they are the issue of the day. How we move forward as a nation is going to be shaped with what we do to help our first nations thrive.

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2016, 09:46:34 PM »
Good words.

We had a protest here in our Pueblo for the pipeline showing our support. I sadly couldn't attend, but I show my support through prayer.

It's crazy because it was planned, then the Balloon Fiesta here decides to release the new boundary lines, which our tribe decided to not allow balloons to land on the rez.

It's odd, I've said this #NODAPL is more serious than we realize.
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Offline chknptpie

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #77 on: September 14, 2016, 07:37:49 AM »
My husband and I are going to the balloon fiesta this year. This will be his first, I haven't been since I was probably 7 or 8. Im curious to know why does your tribe not want balloons to land? What does it impact?

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #78 on: September 14, 2016, 02:58:17 PM »
It's because the Balloons land in the fields, and the crews end up being disrespectful. They cut the bobwired fences and drive through the fields.

Also, other reasons as well. Honestly, we have every right.

I don't mind seeing them here, but it does get hectic at times. It's not also on the pueblo it's at other places like Rio Rancho.

It doesn't impact a thing at all. As always people like to complain about crap.
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Offline chknptpie

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #79 on: September 14, 2016, 03:25:00 PM »
It's because the Balloons land in the fields, and the crews end up being disrespectful. They cut the bobwired fences and drive through the fields.

Also, other reasons as well. Honestly, we have every right.

I don't mind seeing them here, but it does get hectic at times. It's not also on the pueblo it's at other places like Rio Rancho.

It doesn't impact a thing at all. As always people like to complain about crap.

Ah. The tribal land all around me doesn't consist of a lot of farm land, mostly desert. It wouldn't seem like an issue to me, but I understand if it might be damaging land. Also, the chase crews shouldn't be allowed to do that. I would think that is damaging property?

We are staying out towards Rio Rancho. Probably do the park&ride from Cottonwood mall. I always remember the traffic being ridiculous, but that was so many years ago.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #80 on: September 14, 2016, 04:44:28 PM »
It's because the Balloons land in the fields, and the crews end up being disrespectful. They cut the bobwired fences and drive through the fields.

Also, other reasons as well. Honestly, we have every right.

I don't mind seeing them here, but it does get hectic at times. It's not also on the pueblo it's at other places like Rio Rancho.

It doesn't impact a thing at all. As always people like to complain about crap.

Ah. The tribal land all around me doesn't consist of a lot of farm land, mostly desert. It wouldn't seem like an issue to me, but I understand if it might be damaging land. Also, the chase crews shouldn't be allowed to do that. I would think that is damaging property?

We are staying out towards Rio Rancho. Probably do the park&ride from Cottonwood mall. I always remember the traffic being ridiculous, but that was so many years ago.

It still is, especially during balloon glow.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #81 on: September 14, 2016, 05:13:15 PM »
Being a resident of Utah and Arizona, for all my life, I have a deep affection for American Indian art, especially Navajo and Hopi. I hope to one day be able to afford a sand painting...good ones are very expensive. I have a couple of Clifford Beck numbered prints in my dining room and I proudly own an original Robert Redbird painting (although he was Kiowa). I'll post some photos if anyone is interested. I've spent countless hours gazing into those serene, wise faces, imagining their stories and trials.

Sadly, I don't know as much as I should and I rarely get to interact with those who live near here. The Ute reservation is pretty remote and I have know idea where the Piute people even live anymore.

I donate every year to the Ute Tribe Scholarship Fund but that's about the extent of my involvement.

My best friend in elementary school (late 60's early 70's) was Hopi, but her family seemed to be trying to shed the heritage...she moved away when we went to Jr. High and I completely lost track of her.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 09:22:56 AM by Podaar »

Offline Chino

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #82 on: September 15, 2016, 09:09:17 AM »
I'd like to see pics if you have them. I'm a fan of horse hair pottery. I pick up a piece every time I go to Nevada.

Offline Podaar

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2016, 09:23:54 AM »
I'll snap some photos this evening, Chino.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2016, 09:11:16 PM »
Crazy..

An Alabama Pipeline just exploded causing a leak of hundreds of gallons of gas. All they care about is how gas prices will be affected.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2016, 09:23:30 AM »
Okay, Chino. Here they are

This is my dining room

The two on the left wall are Beck lithographs. The three on the back wall are all originals but only the one on the far right is from a Native artist, one Robert Redbird.


The one on the left is perhaps my favorite in the entire house. I wish I could afford the original (assuming I could find it).

Here's the Redbird up close.


And another Redbird, but this time a lithograph, from elsewhere in the house


Sorry about the reflection but when these were framed back in the 80's, everyone loved to use glass.

Since you mentioned pottery, I snapped a shot of a couple that we have.

Only the black ones are from a Navajo artist, Mary Saxon.

Anyway, we have more but this is probably getting boring at this point.

Offline TL

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2016, 09:53:06 PM »
My first return to this section of the forums in a while.

I've had quite a bit of interaction with people from the Mi'kmaq nation over the years, here in what's now Nova Scotia.

Honestly, ever since i was young, I've been aware of the indigenous history of this area. Part of that is that much of my personal history is French Acadian. The Acadians first arrived here in the early 1600s, and were greeted by the Mi'kmaq. (The Mi'kmaq also tried to greet the English in a friendly manner, but the English rejected them). A group of French settlers, who went on to be known as Acadians (or Acadiens, inhabitants of Acadie, with  Acadie being a Mi'kmaq place name) becoming quite close with the Mi'kmaq, with the two societies basically intermingling between 1604 and 1755.

The only reason that came to an end was that the English tried to exterminate both groups in 1755. They failed on both counts. The Acadians survived, though a third of them were killed, with some being deported by the English or forced into indentured servitude, while some escaped and fled with much help from the Mi'kmaq and Maliseet nations. The Mi'kmaq put up enough resistance to maintain themselves, and have a significant presence in the region to this day. They actually offered a peace agreement to the English around 1755, that would have given the English about half of their traditional territory in exchange for a peace agreement, but the English at the time rejected it because they wanted the entire area.

In my own experience, I've had a lot of interaction with Mi'kmaq people. In fact, one of my closest friends (since we were both 5 years old) is Mi'kmaq. She's taught me some of the Mi'kmaq language, and I've taught her a bit of french (she's a faster learner than I am on that). I've spent time with her visiting some of her family in of the province's Mi'kmaq communities (in the US, you would probably call them reserves, though it's a bit different). We've also gone together to a Mi'kmaq "Friendship center" downtown a bunch of times. She is easily one of the best people I have ever known, and our friendship has had a profound impact on my worldview.

Offline Chino

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #87 on: September 21, 2016, 08:32:49 AM »
I'll snap some photos this evening, Chino.

Thanks for posting those. I really like the one of the lady in blue.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2016, 09:25:18 PM »
I don't believe Reservations are subject to State laws at all (They are considered separate Sovereigns), but there might be some oversight with Federal Laws.

Bump of an old comment in this thread, which was sparked by this news (and affects my inlaws):

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/department-interior-finalizes-rule-recognize-native-hawaiian-government-n653631

Doesn't this run counter-intuitive to that whole "...one nation, under god, indivisible..." thing we proclaim and strive for? How are we supposed to be a unified country with these separate sovereigns within our borders? Not trying to be combative, I am genuinely curious and want the thoughts of others.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #89 on: September 26, 2016, 07:37:07 AM »
I don't believe Reservations are subject to State laws at all (They are considered separate Sovereigns), but there might be some oversight with Federal Laws.

Bump of an old comment in this thread, which was sparked by this news (and affects my inlaws):

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/department-interior-finalizes-rule-recognize-native-hawaiian-government-n653631

Doesn't this run counter-intuitive to that whole "...one nation, under god, indivisible..." thing we proclaim and strive for? How are we supposed to be a unified country with these separate sovereigns within our borders? Not trying to be combative, I am genuinely curious and want the thoughts of others.

Just my two cents, but I respectfully think you're not looking at it right.  WITHIN OUR BORDERS, we are "one nation, under god, indivisible".  That's the point of "sovereign nation".  So the Indian sovereign nations AREN'T part of our nation.  Yeah, their territory is wholly surrounded by "United States Territory", and (for the most part) we've not opted to have a full border crossing (as with, say, Canada), but the line between is, technically, a border. 

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2016, 09:07:20 AM »
This is just not right. We all know the govt didn't give a shit and never have...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2016/10/standing-rock-protesters-face-police-world-watches-facebook/amp/?client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us


This is way more important than the presidential election, than Ted Bundy, overall than Kim K getting robbed. It's insane how the ND state is lying and trying their hardest to stop us, yet we've been fighting with peaceful prayers. Yet, they don't like it and you can see. They have dollar eyes, which is all they see.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2016, 05:33:31 PM »
This is way more important than the presidential election..

Pardon my ignorance, but... how?
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2016, 06:12:32 PM »
This is way more important than the presidential election..

Pardon my ignorance, but... how?

I guess in a way not really. But you've got people protecting the water which they don't want contaminated as pipelines have leaked.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2016, 09:50:52 PM »
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #94 on: October 31, 2016, 08:54:42 AM »
Well, I'M sorry, but no matter the cause, this doesn't work for me:

Police:  "Back up and no one will get hurt."
Protestor:  NO.
Police:  "Back up and no one will get hurt."
Protestor:  NO.
Police:  "Back up and no one will get hurt."
Protestor:  NO.
Police: "Back up and no one will get hurt."
Protestor:  NO.  (Does something aggressive:  throws trash on cops, storms the line, taunts police)
Police:  Taze or Pepper spray
Protestor: "Oh my god it hurts so bad! YOU ANIMALS!"

I get the issue, it's not minor (I've done almost 20 years and almost $500M worth of environmental work, so I understand the issues).   But it's still only one perspective.  Like the issue of the pipeline crossing the Missouri river, a river "we get our drinking water from".  Even if that pipeline DOES leak, I guaran-fucking-tee you that river is getting far more contamination just from farm and roadway runoff than it will ever get from that pipeline, and yet, it's safe enough to drink.  Why should the world stop so that you can have a comfort level that is largely one of perception and not hard data? 


Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #95 on: October 31, 2016, 11:42:31 AM »
That's not the problem.

The problem is them building on Tribal Lands, and destroying Sacred sites. They have dug up a burial site just to lay the pipes.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #96 on: October 31, 2016, 02:43:44 PM »
Well, I'M sorry, but no matter the cause, this doesn't work for me:

Police:  "Back up and no one will get hurt."
Protestor:  NO.
Police:  "Back up and no one will get hurt."
Protestor:  NO.
Police:  "Back up and no one will get hurt."
Protestor:  NO.
Police: "Back up and no one will get hurt."
Protestor:  NO.  (Does something aggressive:  throws trash on cops, storms the line, taunts police)
Police:  Taze or Pepper spray
Protestor: "Oh my god it hurts so bad! YOU ANIMALS!"

I get the issue, it's not minor (I've done almost 20 years and almost $500M worth of environmental work, so I understand the issues).   But it's still only one perspective.  Like the issue of the pipeline crossing the Missouri river, a river "we get our drinking water from".  Even if that pipeline DOES leak, I guaran-fucking-tee you that river is getting far more contamination just from farm and roadway runoff than it will ever get from that pipeline, and yet, it's safe enough to drink.  Why should the world stop so that you can have a comfort level that is largely one of perception and not hard data?

No offense Stadler, but I think you're missing the point where the gov't is taking away the protester lands by gunpoint.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #97 on: October 31, 2016, 03:24:56 PM »
Admittedly, I'm not the expert here, but I did a little reading, and 90% of what I read didn't have anything on that, and the one source that did - an op-ed by a tribal member - didn't go so far as to say "they're digging on our burial ground".   

I live in CT; I am familiar with some of the eminent domain cases down in the Norwich arena (at least one of which is a landmark case) where home valuations and in some cases alleged tribal lands (Mohegans, Pequots and a couple "lesser" - that is, not fully recognized - tribes) have been at issue, and even the phrase "taking" is subject to which side of the line (no pun intended) you're on.

I don't mean to make light, or minimize the position or situation, but when we're talking in hyperbole - more important than electing the leader of the free world? - a little perspective is never out of line.

Offline DragonAttack

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #98 on: November 01, 2016, 05:37:50 AM »
What the pipeline protestors needed to do:  make sure they were white, armed to the teeth, take over the area, and have the last name of Bundy.  It would have halted things for months, and then they would have been found 'not guilty' at their trial.

Offline Cyclopssss

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #99 on: November 01, 2016, 06:12:57 AM »
it's just another example of how far corporate America will go to protect their profits and wealth.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #100 on: November 01, 2016, 06:55:36 AM »
^^^ Predictable as the sunrise.   We have laws for a reason, and to the extent they were followed, there is no reason at all why "Corporate America" - as I understand it, it's not really "Corporate America" fighting here, it's a dispute between the state and people who don't  like how the state ruled on an issue - should just roll over and walk away because someone is unhappy with a decision made not in their favor.    If you dig in, it's clear that a lot of the protestors aren't even from the Standing Rock Tribe, and some in the tribe are wondering why it's a big deal.  When the state (and the regulators) had the hearings about this two years ago - when it mattered, when something could have been done, peaceably and by the process - barely anyone showed up. 

Corporate Greed?   That's a bumper sticker.   There more than enough "Sour Grapes" in there too.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #101 on: November 01, 2016, 08:05:54 AM »
Well, it seems like the Army Corps of Engineers ignored the concerns of significant bodies during the permit phase, and basically rubberstamped the operation.  So it's not quite as simple as you are making it.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Skeever

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #102 on: November 01, 2016, 08:26:59 AM »
Yeah, this is another Army Corps of Engineers debacle. Unrelated, but I wanted to address the following and we can take it to another thread if there's interest.

Corporate Greed?   That's a bumper sticker.   There more than enough "Sour Grapes" in there too.

Except it's not. On the whole, corporations function to meet the demands of shareholders. Shareholders are often the ones with the "shortest view" of the consequences of their corporation's actions. This is why corporate greed is real, and why corporations aren't able to consistently make "wise" decisions, even for themselves. Everything is geared toward pleasing a group of people (Shareholders) who have the shortest-term interest in the company.

So, yeah, I'm a firm believer in the realness Corporate Greed, which is why I've never trusted the folk knowledge that "a business man would make a good president". Show me a corporation that has wisely followed through decades and decades of sustainable success for itself, and then show me that they're the rule rather than the exception. Until then, I have no problem with that bumper sticker you mentioned. 


Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #103 on: November 01, 2016, 09:41:24 AM »
What happened is, they tried all they could to do what they as a tribe could on their own. What triggered it is when they began digging up sacred grounds. If they can, and did, dig it up, they sure will do it to others, and my own, tribes. So we as a people felt the need to gather and help our brethren fight for what is just. They have spread lies through media, and even sent in ploys saying they were part of the protectors, which they would instigate the violence they need to begin shooting on site.

Also, they wanted to Frak Chaco Canyon Park. Which is an ancient ruins site that holds significance to where our people traveled. It's part of our history.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #104 on: November 01, 2016, 09:45:25 AM »
I have read the info about sacred burial sites, but I have also read that it is on federal land, not tribal land.  Are both of these things true?

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.