Author Topic: Native Americans?  (Read 5572 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 7225
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Native Americans?
« on: March 07, 2013, 01:56:24 PM »
If you guys don't know I'm a Pueblo/Hopi Native, 100% full blooded.

Since being able to form my own thoughts i've always wondered about certain things in life. First, I'm interested in knowing what everyone else knows/believes/and thinks of our people? 
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 25758
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2013, 02:25:29 PM »
Having seen firsthand what became of Aborigines, Maori, Native Americans etc., honestly, for the most part I see it as another sad consequence of human conquest.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline GuineaPig

  • Posts: 3754
  • Gender: Male
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2013, 02:35:38 PM »
As far as history goes, Canada's track record is pretty damn good.  But god damn did we do (and are continuing to do) some pretty fucking awful things to Aboriginals. 
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea."

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 25758
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2013, 03:19:44 PM »
New Zealand is pretty good too. Australia, nasty on the other hand.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 7225
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2013, 03:44:00 PM »
As far as history goes, Canada's track record is pretty damn good.  But god damn did we do (and are continuing to do) some pretty fucking awful things to Aboriginals. 

Thats good people are aware. Because i know people whom have went to school out of state and met people who are pretty ignorant.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh

Offline lordxizor

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2437
  • Gender: Male
  • and that is the truth.
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2013, 06:25:05 PM »
It's pretty sad here in Minnesota with the American Indians... or Native Americans or whatever the heck the current PC term is. Their either filthy stinking rich because of the one or two very lucrative casinos, or very poor in the northern parts of the state. Given that there's no way to undo what was done centuries ago, I'm not really sure what the answer is for helping.

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 3176
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2013, 06:26:42 PM »
I think you guys got a raw deal, and have to deal with some unique issues as a race.  And you get waaay to weepy over litter.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Super Dude

  • Hero of Prog
  • DTF.com Member
  • **
  • Posts: 16071
  • Gender: Male
    • Hopped on Pop
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2013, 08:24:11 PM »
No idea. I've never met anyone of American Indian heritage in my life.
I am an SJW (Super Jewish Warrior)
Quote from: bosk1
As frequently happens, Super Dude nailed it.

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 25758
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2013, 09:19:30 PM »
I once meet this part Cherokee girl on a bus trip that lasted for 2 weeks. At the end she was so madly in love with me that she stood screaming on a random street in Chicago, imploring me to not leave the bus. Weird stuff.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Genowyn

  • That name's pretty cool, and honestly, I'd like to change mine to it.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5288
  • Gender: Male
  • But Hachikuji, I've told you over and over...
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2013, 10:15:24 PM »
Our treatment of Natives in Canada is pretty awful. There's recently been a native movement up here to bring more attention to a lot of the issues that still exist on reserves. Not to forget the awful residential schools which were not that far back in our history.

...my name is Araragi.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Whiskey Bent and Hell Bound
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39621
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Dad 1943-2010
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2013, 09:37:42 AM »
I'm interested in knowing what everyone else knows/believes/and thinks of our people?
Most people around here have no ill feelings toward any of the Native Americans. 

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 7225
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2013, 12:29:58 PM »
I'm interested in knowing what everyone else knows/believes/and thinks of our people?
Most people around here have no ill feelings toward any of the Native Americans.

Of course, even if some do i don't care.

Im really interested in the outside perspective, because New Mexico is mainly a native state thats rich in culture.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh

Offline ColdFireYYZ

  • Posts: 1167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2013, 02:01:54 PM »
To the OP: Just curious, how do you feel about people (archaeologists, amateurs, etc) excavating ancient Native American sites (not grave sites, but villages and the like)? Is it an insult to your heritage or do most Native Americans today appreciate that people are learning about and studying their past?

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 7225
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2013, 06:16:45 PM »
To the OP: Just curious, how do you feel about people (archaeologists, amateurs, etc) excavating ancient Native American sites (not grave sites, but villages and the like)? Is it an insult to your heritage or do most Native Americans today appreciate that people are learning about and studying their past?

As long as its respectful. But some places are sacred and best left alone.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13762
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2013, 06:27:15 PM »
I've never met any native Americans so I can't say what my personal feelings are from experience, but from history, id say they've gotten screwed over, and now all I really know about them is that what seems to exists now is their casinos. That probably sounds crappy,  but its honest. 

I recall from grade school that the Lenealenape (spelling?) lived in my area and we did a field trip to an Indian site where we built teepees and the such to experience what life of a native American was like. That was pretty cool, but there wasn't much more in terms of information and history that was given to us to have an impact on me today.

Offline chknptpie

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2868
  • Gender: Female
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2013, 08:24:55 PM »
For living in Arizona/New Mexico (and currently 4 miles from a reservation), I shamefully feel uneducated. I don't quite understand how certain things are illegal in the city, but on the reservation it is legal. In Arizona's case, smoking is illegal inside of buildings. However, we can still smoke in a Casino on the res. Is it because the law is state, and state laws don't cross over to reservation land? What about federal law?

Offline Orthogonal

  • Posts: 916
  • Gender: Male
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2013, 08:59:57 PM »
I don't believe Reservations are subject to State laws at all (They are considered separate Sovereigns), but there might be some oversight with Federal Laws.

Offline Scheavo

  • Posts: 5444
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2013, 09:08:43 PM »
I think federal law applies, because I remember something about native American woman on tribal lands in the recent Violence Against Women Act drama.

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 7225
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2013, 02:52:51 PM »
Yeah we have to follow federal laws. But not state laws really,
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh

Offline TempusVox

  • Descendant of Primus
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5057
  • Gender: Male
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2013, 09:40:40 PM »
My dads mother is 100% Cherokee. She was born on and lived her entire life on the res until she married my grandfather. She taught my younger brother and I a lot about our heritage, but when I was younger I didn't really appreciate it. First of all...my father being half American Indian and my baby brother both physically look like American Indians. Me? The Anglo is strong with me; so in part I was picked on by older kids in the hood when I brought it up. Sort of like Louie C.K. I guess with his Mexican heritage. Other than a cheek swab, probably only a forensic anthropologist or a dentist could actually pick out the physical traits that were bestowed upon me from that branch of the family tree :) So I hid it and sort of rebelled against it for a long time. As I got older I realized how important it was to be proud of that apsect of my life and where I came from. Both my brother and I are on the Cherokee Documentation Register in N.C., and many years ago when they began to allow gambling on the res we got checks for several years; but I out of guilt always sent mine to the school there. I have never tried to benefit in any fashion from the programs offered by the government. Mine wasn't a life of poverty and unemployment which is often the lot of many American Indians. I've never felt the sting of discrimination that I know exists in certain parts of the country towards American Indians.

About the only thing that I have any real strong feeling or connection with now is an absolute hatred of the term "Native American".  My grandmother felt that term was extremely derogatory, and I feel the same. She used to say "Native American sounds like we run around with no clothes on. They might as well call us Savage Americans."  AIM (or the American Indian Movement) would agree with her I think. I know the term is used to describe someone who is born in a certain area. In fact we're all native to where we were born; but there was a time when "native" didn't hold the same connotation.

At any rate, its a damn shame in my opinion that we (everyone else) destroyed so much of the history and heritage and people who were here when the Europeans arrived. We destroyed literally thousands of their mounds in order to have more space to grow crops and build homes and farms; and upwards of 95% of those Indians here from 1492 and beyond were wiped out due to influenza, smallpox, typhoid fever, measles, diptheria and God knows what else. Some estimates put the number close to 20 million... Twenty million. Damn. Then we slaughtered and harassed and stole from the rest for a long damn time. Nice. There aren't many left today which is a damn shame. Most people like my grandmother did in the 30's leave the res and marry someone not of Indian descent. It was bound to happen eventually I guess. Someday all of the tribes will be gone. We'll talk about them like we do the Hittites or something I suppose.

I mentioned that "we got checks for several years". Well, part of the deal to allow gambling was that everyone on the registry had to get a split of the majority of profits. When they first started it was like Bingo Slots or whatever. The checks kept getting bigger and bigger. They went initially from about 5 or 6 hundred dollars, to 4 or 5 grand each year. Then Harrah's built a casino there, and the checks stopped. Seems that instead of money to everyone, now the tribe gets a chunk, but Harrah's promises a job to anyone on the registry that wants one. So if all else ever fails, I'll always have a job waiting for me at least in Cherokee, N.C.  :lol :lol :lol
You don't HAVE a soul.You ARE a soul.You HAVE a body.
"I came here to drink milk and kick ass; and I just finished my milk."

Offline TempusVox

  • Descendant of Primus
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5057
  • Gender: Male
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2013, 10:04:31 PM »
Yeah we have to follow federal laws. But not state laws really,

This is true for a lot of things like zoning, hunting rights, public policy etc. For example, a state may have a smoking ban in a public building, but a res may decide not to do that. Some misdemeanors don't apply, but felonies do. If you murder someone for example, you're charged and tried in federal court, primarily because US Federal law prohibits any tribal court of imposing a sentence of more than 1 year in length; so serious charges that could carry a longer sentence, are tried in federal court. Also, tribal courts cannot try an non-indian in their court for crimes committed on the res. If it's a crime against an indian by a non-indian, the non-indian is tried in federal court; if it's against another non-indian, or is a victimless crime, it's tried in state court. This is because the US Government says tribal courts will have no jurisdiction over non tribal people. Also, even though nearly all tribal courts follow the same format as state and federal court, they are not governed by the Bill of Rights; but instead have a similar document called I think something like the American Indian Civil Rights document or whatever. It's a little complicated. Its says things like even though the federal government would be the one to try a capital case, it cannot impose the death penalty unless the tribal court first allows it do so so. Kinda difficult to follow.
You don't HAVE a soul.You ARE a soul.You HAVE a body.
"I came here to drink milk and kick ass; and I just finished my milk."

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17763
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2013, 10:34:24 PM »
It would seem that the State and County courts handle their felonies, as well. The Navajo like to run interdiction, and since any drug possession in AZ is a felony, all of their busts carry significant jail time. When a friend was busted there recently, it was the Navajo that got him and Apache County that tried him.

You can actually chalk that down as another nice source of revenue. Like all interdiction cops, all they care about is DEA grant money and seizures, and the Indians in Arizona seem to get a ton of both.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline chknptpie

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2868
  • Gender: Female
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2013, 09:07:52 AM »
Very informative! Thanks guys!

Offline Tick

  • Cleavage is a drug! Dracula is a junkie
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9047
  • Gender: Male
  • We will, we will, Trump you, boom boom, clap!
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2013, 09:45:05 AM »
I think you guys got a raw deal, and have to deal with some unique issues as a race.  And you get waaay to weepy over litter.
You got to old to get the last part of that...and I am. :lol
Yup. Tick is dead on.  She's not your type.  Move on.   Tick is Obi Wan Kenobi


Offline soundgarden

  • Posts: 912
  • Gender: Male
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2013, 05:44:35 PM »
How common are the original languages?  Are they still spoken regularly? 

Offline TempusVox

  • Descendant of Primus
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5057
  • Gender: Male
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2013, 09:39:55 AM »
How common are the original languages?  Are they still spoken regularly?

In some tribes some people still speak it. It's like Gaelic in Scotland. I do know that it's taught now in the Cherokee schools. And even some public schools near the Cherokee reservations.  You have to remember that the languages were banned in many instances for a long time, and younger generations of every culture seem to want to turn their backs on their past.
You don't HAVE a soul.You ARE a soul.You HAVE a body.
"I came here to drink milk and kick ass; and I just finished my milk."

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 7225
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2013, 11:16:28 AM »
How common are the original languages?  Are they still spoken regularly?

They're still common. But with the gov't forcing children to school to learn the white ways, most have growb not knowing their culture, which is my grandparents or great grandparents. Being from a small village its sad seeing the effects of that.

Theirs Progressives, whom are accepting of outside ways. And Traditionalists, whom live according to our customs. It can't truely be traditional due to the gov't trying to, and still are, destroy the indian.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 4433
  • Gender: Male
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2013, 09:25:29 AM »
Bump.

Was going to make a thread about this, then remembered this thread. Much talk in the news about the use of Native American names as sports mascots. It's not a new topic, it crops up periodically, but seems to be hitting a new level, especially with the Washington Redskins.

What are everyone's thoughts on this issue?
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 7225
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2013, 10:01:24 AM »
Bump.

Was going to make a thread about this, then remembered this thread. Much talk in the news about the use of Native American names as sports mascots. It's not a new topic, it crops up periodically, but seems to be hitting a new level, especially with the Washington Redskins.

What are everyone's thoughts on this issue?

I honestly don't care about that. Theirs a viking, cowboy, and in other sports other personas. I think where people get upset on the issue is when rival fans go to the extreme.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 6679
  • Gender: Male
  • I'M CAPTAIN KIRK!!!!!!!!!!!
    • The ANABASIS
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2013, 10:51:54 AM »
I think you guys got a raw deal, and have to deal with some unique issues as a race.  And you get waaay to weepy over litter.
You got to old to get the last part of that...and I am. :lol


Brings back a lot of memories

Offline El JoNNo

  • Posts: 1778
  • Gender: Male
  • EMOTRUCCI
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2013, 09:36:18 AM »
How common are the original languages?  Are they still spoken regularly?
They're still common. But with the gov't forcing children to school to learn the white ways, most have growb not knowing their culture.

This kind of attitude pisses me off. It's not up to the "white man" to teach your children about your heritage. Just like it's not up to the "white man" to teach my children about my heritage. It's up to you and your people to keep your history, it's not our fault you do a poor job teaching your children. I also find it amazing that you seem to be upset that your children are forced to learn our white math, white geography, and white science.

What happened to your people in the past was very shitty, and I understand wanting your children to remember but to complain about your child being forced into education. That is just ridiculous. Own up to teaching your children your culture or find classes that do because gee the "white man" offers courses about native heritage as well.   

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 7225
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2013, 12:58:01 PM »
How common are the original languages?  Are they still spoken regularly?
They're still common. But with the gov't forcing children to school to learn the white ways, most have growb not knowing their culture.

This kind of attitude pisses me off. It's not up to the "white man" to teach your children about your heritage. Just like it's not up to the "white man" to teach my children about my heritage. It's up to you and your people to keep your history, it's not our fault you do a poor job teaching your children. I also find it amazing that you seem to be upset that your children are forced to learn our white math, white geography, and white science.

What happened to your people in the past was very shitty, and I understand wanting your children to remember but to complain about your child being forced into education. That is just ridiculous. Own up to teaching your children your culture or find classes that do because gee the "white man" offers courses about native heritage as well.

Okay. I didnt say I don't, or others don't teach their kids about our heritage, nor am I blaming the white man.

All I said was due to the circumstances in which the children were taken, the older ones taught the little ones, but once the little ones went home they really didn't know much. We have to struggle to restore what once we had, while also dealing with the question of why did some of elders leave our ways, while others still kept it.

I wasn't talking about the present, I just tried to reply quickly why some have language while others don't.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh

Offline sueño

  • Posts: 1511
  • How Dare I Be So Beautiful?
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2013, 01:26:52 PM »
I think you guys got a raw deal, and have to deal with some unique issues as a race.  And you get waaay to weepy over litter.
You got to old to get the last part of that...and I am. :lol


Brings back a lot of memories


I am also old enough to remember when that ad was running.  :(

Of course we know that "Iron Eyes Cody" was not an American Indian, right? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody
"We spend most of our lives convinced we’re the protagonist of the story, but we rarely realize that we’re just supporting characters in everybody else’s story. Nobody thinks about you as much as you do."

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 18239
  • Gender: Male
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2013, 08:38:18 PM »
Well I learned something new today. I now know where this came from.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6iZuHCiV2A&sns=em

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 7225
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Re: Native Americans?
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2013, 11:09:54 PM »
Well I learned something new today. I now know where this came from.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6iZuHCiV2A&sns=em

Told you not to turn around.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh