All things Battlestar Galactica

[ariich]

Well said Reap, I completely agree. When I first watched it through, the first half of season 4 got quite frustrating, but I'm so glad I stuck with it because it picked up a lot and the end was pretty glorious. Like you, I was satisfied that they answered enough without answering everything, and that the character arcs were resolved.

Perp, don't be put off by Guinea Pig, he hates everything.

[GuineaPig]

I hate bad things.  Which unfortunately includes season four of Battlestar Galactica.

[ReaPsTA]

I hate bad things.  Which unfortunately includes season four of Battlestar Galactica.

I'd say I'm not trying to be offensive with this post, although that's a lie because I am:  You seem like a very standard BSG hater.  I've seen way too many people on TWOP who freak out whenever Angeli's name pops up in the writing credit.  Your opinions are not special, and you aren't somehow above us because you've decided to hate what you consider bad things.

[GuineaPig]

I hate bad things.  Which unfortunately includes season four of Battlestar Galactica.

I'd say I'm not trying to be offensive with this post, although that's a lie because I am:  You seem like a very standard BSG hater.  I've seen way too many people on TWOP who freak out whenever Angeli's name pops up in the writing credit.  Your opinions are not special, and you aren't somehow above us because you've decided to hate what you consider bad things.

I don't know what a standard BSG hater is.  I've never talked about in online except for here and occasionally 5/8.  Me and my friends vent about it sometimes.  I haven't read the TWOP write-ups except for a couple episodes, including "The Woman King".  My hatred of Angeli more centers around the fact that he wrote some horrendous episodes, and while admittedly my insight into the creative process of BSG is limited, I don't think that the show becoming worse (in my opinion) and his heightened involvement is simply coincidence.  Somewhat of a useful scapegoat, though I think Ron Moore shares most of the blame.

I don't know.  I pay a lot of attention to writers.  I could probably rank the writers in The Wire in order of how I like 'em.  There are a couple of BSG writers who have done some great work.  Ditto for Mad Men.  I like to pick up on directorial/writing quirks of shows I watch. 

I was being facetious with my last comment.  Probably should've thrown in a smiley.  Of course everything's subjective when it comes to something like this.  And to be honest, it's always been a bit weird in this thread that I am so in the minority in terms of my views.  All the people (10+) I know consider season four to be the worst by far, and some hate it even more than me.

[Perpetual Change]

The season 3 opener was glorious.

I will hate this show if they make me like Baltar again, too. But I can already feel it's going to happen.

[Dimitrius]

You guys heard of the new Ron Moore pilot he's making of NBC? With James Callis, Jaime Bamber and Tricia Helfer... I are intrigued.

[ReaPsTA]

You guys heard of the new Ron Moore pilot he's making of NBC? With James Callis, Jaime Bamber and Tricia Helfer... I are intrigued.

It's Ron Moore, so I'm in.  I really hope the network treats him right.

In addition to those three, IMDB says Rymer's directing the pilot, although I'm not buying into it yet.  Aside from Jamie Bamber's accent (along with NPH, it's one of two things that make me feel noticably less straight), I kinda want to see these guys again.  I'd maybe even be down for more Callis/Helfer scenes, although at that point it would probably start to feel too derivative.

[Vivace]

Ron Moore must have made a miraculous come back with people on BSG. I remember him during his early years with Star Trek: TNG and his writing was abysmal. So below par, but I guess some people can have a few stinkers on their resume and still be a genius. just look at JMS. He's more than capible of writing horrendous junk, yet his 3 years of sheer brilliance with Babylon 5 season 2, 3 and 4 will never go unnoticed.

[ariich]

You guys heard of the new Ron Moore pilot he's making of NBC? With James Callis, Jaime Bamber and Tricia Helfer... I are intrigued.

It's Ron Moore, so I'm in.  I really hope the network treats him right.

In addition to those three, IMDB says Rymer's directing the pilot, although I'm not buying into it yet.  Aside from Jamie Bamber's accent (along with NPH, it's one of two things that make me feel noticably less straight), I kinda want to see these guys again.  I'd maybe even be down for more Callis/Helfer scenes, although at that point it would probably start to feel too derivative.

Bamber's accent was pretty good by the end of the show, but yeah it was terrible at the start.

[TimmyHiggy]

Bamber was a pretty mediocre actor at the start of BSG, but became much better as it went on to the point of being able to deliver some pretty good monologues like that one in court and generally act well!

[ReaPsTA]

Bamber's accent was pretty good by the end of the show, but yeah it was terrible at the start.

I meant his British accent.

Ron Moore must have made a miraculous come back with people on BSG. I remember him during his early years with Star Trek: TNG and his writing was abysmal. So below par, but I guess some people can have a few stinkers on their resume and still be a genius. just look at JMS. He's more than capible of writing horrendous junk, yet his 3 years of sheer brilliance with Babylon 5 season 2, 3 and 4 will never go unnoticed.

Have you seen the show dude?

Also, RDM never had to "come back."  After he left Voyager he worked on a bunch of shows as a producer.

[Dimitrius]

I thought his run on TNG wasn't considered the bad one, I thought it was the Voyager run.

[Perpetual Change]

My god, the first 4 episodes of season 3 are probaby the best run in the series so far.

[ariich]

My god, the first 4 episodes of season 3 are probaby the best run in the series so far.

Season 3 is amazing IMO. The shit hits the fan, but in an incredible way. I still love season 4, but it takes a bit of time to get going, whereas 3 is great from the off.

Bamber's accent was pretty good by the end of the show, but yeah it was terrible at the start.

I meant his British accent.

Damn you!

[ReaPsTA]

I thought his run on TNG wasn't considered the bad one, I thought it was the Voyager run.

I think Vivace's point was that RDM was a bad writer on Star Trek, then somehow managed to find the status and writing ability to run BSG and apparently write good scripts.

This squares with nothing I've seen or heard though.  He was handpicked to be on TNG at a time when the show wasn't really hiring, became an executive producer on DS9, worked on a bunch of other shows, and ran Carnivale for a season before season 1 of BSG.  I don't get how he's a bad writer who magically became successful.

[Perpetual Change]

6 episodes into season 3 and honestly? The show still is not showing a single crack.

[Dimitrius]

6 episodes into season 3 and honestly? The show still is not showing a single crack.

Season 3 is the best season of the show.

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah.

And, I mean, looking back so far, I'd say the season 2.5 was the worst. The season just feels like it ends when the Pegasus drama ends, and when they cut back to stand-alone episodes it feels really weird.

So far, though, everything's been really consistent. Sure there's been somewhat of a slowdown from the first four but I'm finding things to be more and more intriguing. How is season 4?

[Dimitrius]

How is season 4?

I only had one gripe with season 4, that I can't tell you because it would be a major spoiler.

[ariich]

How is season 4?

Things start to go pretty crazy, so it starts a little frustratingly, but once it gets going it is epic. Just keep watching!

[ReaPsTA]

6 episodes into season 3 and honestly? The show still is not showing a single crack.

Well, that's because you haven't seen 7 and 8 yet.

Yeah.

And, I mean, looking back so far, I'd say the season 2.5 was the worst. The season just feels like it ends when the Pegasus drama ends, and when they cut back to stand-alone episodes it feels really weird.

What?  Black Market and Sacrifice weren't good, but season 2.5 has Epiphanies (solid), Scar (top 10 episode), The Captain's Hand (really underrated), Downloaded (great episode because of head Baltar), and the finale (possibly the best season finale of the show).

So far, though, everything's been really consistent. Sure there's been somewhat of a slowdown from the first four but I'm finding things to be more and more intriguing. How is season 4?

Just wait.  The payoffs to the questions will drive you insane and create more questions that make you wonder if anything makes sense.  Then season four will refuse to answer any of those questions and open up more questions, and keep not solving them, and keep not solving them.  Finally season 4.5 will start solving them and moving the plot along and it gets really good.  But the first half of season 4 is so maddening.

[GuineaPig]

How is season 4?

...

[Perpetual Change]

What?  Black Market and Sacrifice weren't good, but season 2.5 has Epiphanies (solid), Scar (top 10 episode), The Captain's Hand (really underrated), Downloaded (great episode because of head Baltar), and the finale (possibly the best season finale of the show).

Well, if Scar is a top 10 episode for you then we are not a match. Honestly, Scar is my least favorite episode so far. Besides being somewhat important as it shows how Kat becomes a decent fighter, it's just out of nowhere and feels like it was something they had left over from season 1.

[Perpetual Change]

6 episodes into season 3 and honestly? The show still is not showing a single crack.

Well, that's because you haven't seen 7 and 8 yet.

Okay, I've just watched those two episodes. Here's how I look at it:

I (still) have absolutely no idea why there's so much controversy about this show. Those episodes were absolutely fantastic. Sure, they had a stand-alone quality to them. But they were extremely important and really served to develop the characters quite a bit. I don't see how you can praise an episode like Scar so highly and then shit all over Hero.

Hero, for me, has been on of the most enjoyable so far. Very good, and better than 50 percent of Season 2 I'd say. If Hero is one of the worst-rated shows of the series, then honestly that's just a testament to how great this series is. But, personally, (and I'm not directing this to you guys, though it's gonna seem that way) I'm starting to think frustrations with this show are based on two pretty common problems I notice with fans of anything: 1.) fans remember the last season as much better than it actually was and 2.) fans just being pretty spoiled as far as expectations go.

Also, this show seems to go through "Train of Thought" syndrome. That is, as people were following it week by week, every time a bottle episode like Hero or something would air it'd just be massively disappointing because people where hoping for something more substantial and because people were also worried in the back of their minds that the next episode would be similar. Meanwhile, people who've got into Dream Theater later have no problem digesting Train of Thought-- they know it wasn't representative of any kind of permanent change in the band's sound. There's no knee-jerk "the sky has fallen!" reaction to Train of Thought from newer fans. The same can be said about Falling into Infinity.

Same goes with me and Battlestar. I'm able to enjoy episodes like Hero because I can just instantly watch the one immediately after it. I haven't had to wait a week for this, nor do I have to wait another week to see the next one after it if the one I've watch hasn't lived up to expectations.

Anyway, can't wait to keep watching. Will keep you guys posted, but for now I really don't think I'll be ending up among the complainers.

[GuineaPig]

I dislike "Hero" because of the problematic retconning, leaps in logic, and general worthlessness.

[Perpetual Change]

I dislike "Hero" because of the problematic retconning, leaps in logic, and general worthlessness.

What retconning? Of course, don't answer that if you mean they retcon this particular episode later.

Anyway, I really don't see how it's worthless. Like I said, there's plenty of character development. And that one extremely important relationship is more-or-less resolved for the time being. As far as leaps of logic go? It's not like they've been even remotely difficult to find elsewhere in the series. This show is really full of moments that make me think "wait why are they doing this?" but pay off later. Actually, maybe it's because I'm used to it now or something, but I found myself thinking things like "now that's just plain unbelievable!" way more often in Season 1 and the first half of Season 2 than I have in the last 20 episodes or so.

[Dimitrius]

I dislike "Hero" because of the problematic retconning, leaps in logic, and general worthlessness.

What retconning? Of course, don't answer that if you mean they retcon this particular episode later.

I think he means that they basically tell you on this episode that the Cylon War started because of Adama sending Bulldog across the line.

Though I always thought of it as Adama misplacing blame on himself rather than a retcon.

[Perpetual Change]

That's not really true, though. The episode doesn't say that at all.

I think it was very clear that your explanation is the correct one.

[ReaPsTA]

Though I always thought of it as Adama misplacing blame on himself rather than a retcon.

The idea of him feeling that way at all though kinda sucks.

I (still) have absolutely no idea why there's so much controversy about this show. Those episodes were absolutely fantastic. Sure, they had a stand-alone quality to them. But they were extremely important and really served to develop the characters quite a bit. I don't see how you can praise an episode like Scar so highly and then shit all over Hero.

Scar is better in every way.  The idea behind Hero is so contrived and melodramatic.  Scar is about who Starbuck is in a fundamental way.

Hero, for me, has been on of the most enjoyable so far. Very good, and better than 50 percent of Season 2 I'd say.

o_O. 

It might be better than Sacrifice, the worst episode of the season (Black Market has some good moments). And even that's a stretch.

If Hero is one of the worst-rated shows of the series, then honestly that's just a testament to how great this series is. But, personally, (and I'm not directing this to you guys, though it's gonna seem that way) I'm starting to think frustrations with this show are based on two pretty common problems I notice with fans of anything: 1.) fans remember the last season as much better than it actually was and 2.) fans just being pretty spoiled as far as expectations go.

What do you mean by the last season?  Season 4 or season 2?

Otherwise, I can't address much of anything in your post.  I'm not quite sure where you're coming from.

[Fiery Winds]

I'm pretty sure he means Season 2 since he hasn't even started Season 4 yet. 

[GuineaPig]

I dislike "Hero" because of the problematic retconning, leaps in logic, and general worthlessness.

What retconning? Of course, don't answer that if you mean they retcon this particular episode later.

Anyway, I really don't see how it's worthless. Like I said, there's plenty of character development. And that one extremely important relationship is more-or-less resolved for the time being. As far as leaps of logic go? It's not like they've been even remotely difficult to find elsewhere in the series. This show is really full of moments that make me think "wait why are they doing this?" but pay off later. Actually, maybe it's because I'm used to it now or something, but I found myself thinking things like "now that's just plain unbelievable!" way more often in Season 1 and the first half of Season 2 than I have in the last 20 episodes or so.

The retconning I mentioned had to do with Adama being in command of the Valkyrie.  It was lazy writing to invent a personal problem through a retcon, especially if it had no significance past that episode.

The leaps of logic are pretty vast in this episode.  The Cylons decide the best way to kill Adama is to find a man from his past, assume he had built-up resentment, locate the fleet, let him go, make it seem like he was escaping, all in the hope he'd kill Adama for them?  First of all, it's stupid, second of all, it goes against the characterization of the Cylons.  It's a problem that's present through much of the series due to some shoddy writing, especially in the fourth season (full-blown Lostitis manifesting itself), but here it's pretty egregious.  

The only redeeming factor for this episode is some pretty great stuff with Tigh from what I can recall.  It's enough to elevate the episode to merely sub-average.

[Perpetual Change]

The leaps of logic are pretty vast in this episode.  The Cylons decide the best way to kill Adama is to find a man from his past, assume he had built-up resentment, locate the fleet, let him go, make it seem like he was escaping, all in the hope he'd kill Adama for them?  First of all, it's stupid, second of all, it goes against the characterization of the Cylons.  

I don't think it goes against the characterization of the Cylons-- but it does show them as a bit more desperate, trying various things that they wouldn't have needed to before. It was just something they tried for the sake of trying, not this grand scheme they had a lot invested in. I don't really see how it's that unbelievable. Nations do that to eachother all the time in war.

The idea of him feeling that way at all though kinda sucks.

Why? (Both) Adama(s) becoming (a) softy(ies) has, from what I can tell, has pretty much been a motif of this season.

Scar is better in every way.  The idea behind Hero is so contrived and melodramatic.  Scar is about who Starbuck is in a fundamental way.

Hero is about the relationship between Adama and Tigh in a very fundimental way. In fact, this one episode seems to show that dynamic better than any other so far.

It might be better than Sacrifice, the worst episode of the season (Black Market has some good moments). And even that's a stretch.

Black Market is another episode that wasn't bad at all. What is people's problem with it?

Otherwise, I can't address much of anything in your post.  I'm not quite sure where you're coming from.

I'm asking if you hated these episodes because they're actually bad? Or because, as you originally watched it week to week, sometimes you'd get something like Black Market wound up yearning for another episode that really drove the plot forward?

[GuineaPig]

The leaps of logic are pretty vast in this episode.  The Cylons decide the best way to kill Adama is to find a man from his past, assume he had built-up resentment, locate the fleet, let him go, make it seem like he was escaping, all in the hope he'd kill Adama for them?  First of all, it's stupid, second of all, it goes against the characterization of the Cylons.  

I don't think it goes against the characterization of the Cylons-- but it does show them as a bit more desperate, trying various things that they wouldn't have needed to before. It was just something they tried for the sake of trying, not this grand scheme they had a lot invested in. I don't really see how it's that unbelievable. Nations do that to eachother all the time in war.

Most of the time, they're trying to find the fleet.  They discover the fleet's location, and instead of sending in everything in an attempt to knock them out (or simply pick off a couple civvies) they let a prisoner escape in an incredibly muddled plan to have him kill Adama?  Typically, the Cylons use the most reductive (and effective) method; got a guy on board?  Have him walk into CIC with a bomb.  Need to destroy humanity?  Paralyze the defense systems; deliver singular, crushing blow.  

Imagine your hypothetical "real life" parallel: a Wolf pack has spent days, by itself and through co-ordination with intelligence and aircraft, to pinpoint the location of an Allied convoy in the North Atlantic.  With the advantage of surprise, they do not try to pick off the destroyers, or the minor escorts, or the most valuable civilian supply ships, or the lesser important ones.  Instead, they try and get a captured Allied seaman on board the lead ship to kill the Group Commander.  Sound plausible?  A lot of shows fall into this trap of shoddy writing: they don't properly assess the motivations of characters and try to craft a realistic plot, and instead craft needlessly complex schemes that focus on "twists" to deliver the drama (see Lost for many examples, most Bond movies, etc.).  It's bad writing.

[Perpetual Change]

It's bad writing.

It's not "bad," it's just not great. I think you're lying to yourself, though, if you actually think that the series' portrayal of various characters motivations has necessarily been more logical than this. And anyway, like I said, as a stand-alone episode I thought it was pretty enjoyable, probably the most enjoyable stand-alone so far.

[GuineaPig]

It's bad writing.

It's not "bad," it's just not great. I think you're lying to yourself, though, if you actually think that the series' portrayal of various characters motivations has necessarily been more logical than this. And anyway, like I said, as a stand-alone episode I thought it was pretty enjoyable, probably the most enjoyable stand-alone so far.

It is bad writing, imo; I calls them as I sees them.  I'm not going to dispute what I've bolded; there were some major missteps previously.  It's bound to happen when you have a network show with a wide range of writers.  In general I have a big problem with the way a lot of characters who were previously favourites of mine were handled in the latter seasons.  Consistent characterization is pretty important for me.  That's why the Tigh/Adama stuff in this episode is legitimately excellent and raises the overall quality a lot.  I'd actually take "Hero" over 3/4 of Season 4.

My problem with the episode is that it is the definition of filler.  It is simply there to pad out the episode length, and what with the problems the retconning brings I think it does slightly more harm than good.  It could've been cut out (albeit with Tigh's mini-arc moved to a different episode) and you wouldn't notice at all.  Which does sort of matter because there's a whole lot of contriving coming up that could've used another episode to build into.