All things Battlestar Galactica

[GuineaPig]

She is, imo.

After Doc Cottle 

[ariich]

Cain was good, but I definitely prefer Lampkin.

But GP is right, Cottle is the best them!

[ReaPsTA]

I dunno if we're considering him a guest star, but if Cavil is one, isn't he the best by miles?

[Adami]

I dunno if we're considering him a guest star, but if Cavil is one, isn't he the best by miles?

Cavil is amazing. He's the only reason, also, to watch The Plan, if you so choose.

I know a lot of people have problems with the way he....you know, at the end, but after thinking about it, I thought it was great.

[ariich]

I agree. It seemed quite out of the blue when I first saw the finale, but I get the feeling that part of their intention in making The Plan was to expand on why he did it. That alone makes The Plan worth watching, even if there isn't a great deal else to it.

[Adami]

Appearently his, you know was actually Dean Stockwells idea. Originally he was gonna go out a different way, but Dean Stockwell said it would be more in character to do it the way he did.

The only weak part of the finale that I can think of right now was that whole boomer thing with "tell the admiral I owe him one". It's like they invented that whole idea right then and there and threw in a flashback to make it seem ok, but it was pointless and out of no where. She should have owed him one when she shot him.

[ReaPsTA]

Various thoughts (MAJOR HUGE SPOILERS):








 - Dean Stockwell was 100% correct about Cavil. He had no cause based on any meaningful personal belief that he could have kept trying to survive for, even the basic notion of trying to survive for the sake of continuing as a person since he knew his objectives would be impossible to make. I loved it when it happened, made perfect sense to me.

 - I still like The Plan, in spite of its flaws. There's an actual story being told about what makes Cavil who he is, the little narrative fillings were pretty nice, and I liked the Simon storyline. Plus, when they play his speech from No Exit (ending with "I want to be something more") over the final scene of them being air-locked, it's a poignant moment.

 - The Boomer thing in the Finale makes sense if you had the pre-existing knowledge she was a crappy pilot, thus not making it come out of no where. That moment in the finale adds the layer that Adama saved her purely out of his own generosity. I liked it, it's a touching moment. It is tough though to say she didn't already owe Adama one after shooting him, so I dunno.

Fun fact about the finale, Ron Moore pulled the rough ideas for both the Kara/Lee and Roslin flashback stories from the series bible.

[GuineaPig]

Looks like it's time for me to whip out my hammer of discontent.

[GuineaPig]

Various thoughts on others' various thoughts (MAJOR HUGE SPOILERS):





- Dean Stockwell was 50% wrong on Cavil.  Or 0%.  I don't know.  Cavil's main drive, unlike the rest of the Cylons, was not religious.  It was based off of bitterness, anger, and resentment.  At the end, him just killing himself is entirely anticlimactic.  Cavil should've fought to the end.  He would've wanted to take as many humans and Cylons with him.  I could see him killing himself by blowing up the ship or venting it or wrecking the engine; I agree he didn't really have any real desire to live, but the character would still've preferred to put bullets in humans rather than himself.

- The Plan was damn mediocre.  It was cool to see Cavil I guess, but it still didn't address the major plot holes about the final five.  The new Battlestars were sexy as hell.  Would've liked to see more of that.  And the nuke scene was gangster.

- The Boomer thing in the Finale doesn't make sense.  I was so fucking glad Adama shot her.  Her apology and defection was so lame and tacked on after she's switched sides 3 or 4 times.  I wouldn't even have let her open her mouth.

[Adami]

Adama didn't shoot boomer. Athena did. Or am I insane?

[ReaPsTA]

Various thoughts on others' various thoughts (MAJOR HUGE SPOILERS):





- The Plan was damn mediocre.  It was cool to see Cavil I guess, but it still didn't address the major plot holes about the final five. 

Which ones?

[Adami]

Guinea is never going to be satisfied with BSG, I wouldn't bother trying to argue.

[ReaPsTA]

Guinea is never going to be satisfied with BSG, I wouldn't bother trying to argue.

I like outside perspectives on what's essentially me as a huge dork crushing on the hot cheerleader of Sci-Fi shows.

[GuineaPig]

Adama didn't shoot boomer. Athena did. Or am I insane?

Yeah, you're right.  I just got things mixed up in my head there.

I wish he'd shot her, though.

Various thoughts on others' various thoughts (MAJOR HUGE SPOILERS):





- The Plan was damn mediocre.  It was cool to see Cavil I guess, but it still didn't address the major plot holes about the final five. 

Which ones?

There's a couple.  The timeline.  How they got to Earth.  How Tigh served in the first Cylon war.  Whether or not they age.  Why, if they were just random shmucks from other-Earth, did they know all the stuff about resurrection. 

The biggest one is this: how did they all survive?  Most people say the Colonies were 20 billion people.  The original fleet of survivors is about 50,000.  That puts your average chance of survival at a staggering 1 in 400,000.

Now, it's obviously different for some characters.  Ellen was the only one who was meant to get away; and even then it was like a 1 in 4 shot. 

Being on a military vessel is interesting.  Were you more or less likely to survive?  Hard to tell, but considering the fleet was around 120 battlestars, and if you account for Galactica's old school style, I'd say Galactica had about a 1 in 20 shot of surviving the initial attack.  So Tigh and the Chief were more likely to survive; but the fact that they were on the same ship is also very unlikely (probably 1 in 200 or so considering where a Colonel and a Chief Petty Officer could be assigned to).

Anders and Tory however were in the 1 in 400,000 category.  They both got out of it by pure luck.  But that's my point; the series never explains why (except for Ellen) all the final five got away.  It was astronomically unlikely for them to do it by themselves, let alone all of them.  Imo, it would've been better if the final five, were mostly dead (1 or 2 I could buy, at most).  It's not like the Cylons had this master plan to allow Pyramid teams, political aides, and decrepit Battlestars get away (while looking like they were trying very hard to do so).

Now obviously, there is going to be some suspension of disbelief with a TV show.  But it's sort of like this: "Go to Google Maps, pick a random state, then a random city and street name. We'll wait. Back? OK, did you end up on the street that we randomly selected (Oak Street in Starke, Florida)? Of fucking course you didn't. But if you were written by JJ Abrams you would have."

https://www.cracked.com/article/18345_5-gaping-plot-holes-hollywood-knows-you-wont-notice/

Biggest plot hole in the show, imo.  Absolutely gaping.

Guinea is never going to be satisfied with BSG, I wouldn't bother trying to argue.

I don't think I'll ever be satisfied with season 4, but discussion is good.  I'm quite surprised that I'm the only person who hated it.  All the people I know despised it.

[ReaPsTA]

There's a couple.  The timeline.

Got me there. This is even referred to on the BattlestarWiki as the season 2 timeline discontinuity because the writers magically jumped ahead three months.

How they got to Earth.

Why is this a plot hole.

How Tigh served in the first Cylon war.

He didn't. The memories are fake.

Whether or not they age.

Significant seven do not, final five do.

Why, if they were just random shmucks from other-Earth, did they know all the stuff about resurrection. 

They weren't random schmucks. Tyrol and Tory built the resurrection technology.

The biggest one is this: how did they all survive?  Most people say the Colonies were 20 billion people.  The original fleet of survivors is about 50,000.  That puts your average chance of survival at a staggering 1 in 400,000.

Now, it's obviously different for some characters.  Ellen was the only one who was meant to get away; and even then it was like a 1 in 4 shot. 

Being on a military vessel is interesting.  Were you more or less likely to survive?  Hard to tell, but considering the fleet was around 120 battlestars, and if you account for Galactica's old school style, I'd say Galactica had about a 1 in 20 shot of surviving the initial attack.  So Tigh and the Chief were more likely to survive; but the fact that they were on the same ship is also very unlikely (probably 1 in 200 or so considering where a Colonel and a Chief Petty Officer could be assigned to).

Anders and Tory however were in the 1 in 400,000 category.  They both got out of it by pure luck.  But that's my point; the series never explains why (except for Ellen) all the final five got away.  It was astronomically unlikely for them to do it by themselves, let alone all of them.  Imo, it would've been better if the final five, were mostly dead (1 or 2 I could buy, at most).  It's not like the Cylons had this master plan to allow Pyramid teams, political aides, and decrepit Battlestars get away (while looking like they were trying very hard to do so).

Now obviously, there is going to be some suspension of disbelief with a TV show.  But it's sort of like this: "Go to Google Maps, pick a random state, then a random city and street name. We'll wait. Back? OK, did you end up on the street that we randomly selected (Oak Street in Starke, Florida)? Of fucking course you didn't. But if you were written by JJ Abrams you would have."

https://www.cracked.com/article/18345_5-gaping-plot-holes-hollywood-knows-you-wont-notice/

Biggest plot hole in the show, imo.  Absolutely gaping.

Well.... The Plan shows how they all lived. Cavil could have timed the attack so Anders would live (a bit of a stretch but not impossible), and we see him personally trying to save Ellen. Everything you're describing is definitely a tubgirlesque stretching of logic, but at some point wouldn't you rather the writers just tell a story?

The final five plot isn't elegant (it's what happens when you improv the mythology of your show), but it works, and the only real plot hole you've pointed out has nothing to do with them.

[Dimitrius]

I just finished the series... OMFG was this show amazing!!!

One thing, though, they kinda made a big deal about Starbuck being "the harbinger of death" and nothing comes of it, unless it was meant ironically.


EDIT: Reading through most the thread now, I do agree with GuineaPig about the opera house visions, that was really underwhelming after being built up since the first season.

Metty not liking Roslin... LOL

Roslin is awesome! And "swine pig stooping to genocide" they've been hunted for 3 years and the human race has been reduced to 50,000 and here you are given the chance to end the war and your persecution... I would commit that genocide in a heartbeat! No fucking doubt I would!

[Progmetty]

Just finished, this show will be sorely missed, I spaced out the seasons by months and spaced out the episodes as much as I could to make them last, according to my first post in this thread I started watching in May 2009.
First of all thanks for recommending this show fellas, I had a blast.
Been avoiding this thread for a while and never really read through it except for posts directed at me, now I can read it start to end, should be fun.

SPOILERS AHEAD
Some thoughts:
1- Felix Gaeta's story line through out the series and how it came to end has been one of few story lines flawlessly executed with minimal holes in the reasoning, compared to most of the characters on this show that is.
Great performance by the actor imo, one of the best on the show.
I admired the character so much and find him so honorable and respectful, it saddened me to see him go in the disgraceful way he did, The Oath and Blood on The Scales are two of the best episodes and I have to admit I was choking up a bit by the end of the second one.
Almost everyone else involved in the mutiny seemed to get what they had coming cause it never felt like they were in it for any reason but blind stupidity and consistent lack of understanding or trusting Adama's judgement, I dunno if Selix is dead but it was good to see Racetrack die in the finale.
2- So Starbuck when we first found out there was a dead Starbuck on dead Earth I thought; the fact that there's a living Starbuck could be a hint that there's a living earth, without further thoughts on the why or how this happened, now the show is over and I frankly don't understand what happened with Starbuck, since Lee saw he raptor explode to the end, was she supposed to be an angel? what the deuce happened there?
3- I didn't like the feeling that the writers were making stuff up as they go along, I know a lot of tv shows do that but it was very obvious here that the show didn't have a direction until almost mid season 4.
4- How's there a Gaius Baltar after 1500 years that knows everything about the story? and the Six with him?
5- The actor playing Cavil gave a weak performance through the fourth season imo, his scenes with Ellen in the base ship when she came back were almost kinda vague to me as I struggle to understand the point through the actor's stage-like-over-the-top performance, like when he was talking about how he felt limited by his body and by the language he has to use to express himself, dunno.
cavil was a role I would have liked to see Hugo Weaving play, if the Matrix never existed that is heh
This brings me to the astonishing aspects BSG has in common with The Matrix trilogy, the man vs machine theme handling, especially with the "the only way to salvation is together" common factor between the two worlds, there's something to be said there but I'm too tired of typing now.

[Dimitrius]

4- How's there a Gaius Baltar after 1500 years that knows everything about the story? and the Six with him?

I thought it was pretty obvious that the "Head-Six" and "Head-Baltar" seen in the series where some kind of divine beings, angels if you will, "Head-Six" always told Baltar she was sent by god to protect him and show him there was a god.

[Progmetty]

Oh that makes sense, somehow it didn't occur to me that these were the head ones.
Laura Roslin hasn't been as much of a bitch on season 4 as she was on previous seasons, as soon as the religious angle dropped it seemed to me that was what angered me all along,  driven to do anything for a religious belief make me sick, also it could be that was no longer opposing Adama.

[GuineaPig]

Speaking of BSG-related things I wish didn't exist: https://www.avclub.com/articles/another-battlestar-galactica-spinoff-on-the-way,46718/

[Adami]

Why don't you wish it existed?

[GuineaPig]

Inspired by my "33" review, I was wondering what people's favourite BSG episodes are.

Mine go like so:

1. Resurrection Ship
2. 33
3. Pegasus

[Scurvy!Dreams]

3. Sometime a Great Notion
2. 33
1. Exodus Part II

[Perpetual Change]

So I've only see the first season. Me and my girlfriend might start watching the rest of the episodes at a painfully slow one-episode per-week rate, just to give us something to do together when we're just talking online.

[Vivace]

I don't think I'll ever be satisfied with season 4, but discussion is good.  I'm quite surprised that I'm the only person who hated it.  All the people I know despised it.

You are not alone. I didn't care for this series either. It had an excellent start and just fizzled around season 2.5 and 3. Every now and then they would come up with some interesting ideas but I never really connected with any of the major characters, it got incredibly soapy in my opinion and the final 5 I thought was ridiculous especially the last one revealed.

this was a good show for what it was, but it really didn't have anything going for it other than pace. the character's although interesting were unlikable and hard to connect with, the plot was continually bleak and therefore you never had an opportunity to have any fun, it was always dramatic, and there were too many twists and questions because of these twists. In the end, I just had a very hard time finishing the series. At about season 4 I just read ahead because I wasn't interested in spending 45 minutes an episode anymore. I just wanted the cliff notes and that was that.

[ReaPsTA]

SPOILERS! MY GOD! SPOILERS THAT RUIN THE WHOLE SHOW ARE AHEAD!

One thing, though, they kinda made a big deal about Starbuck being "the harbinger of death" and nothing comes of it, unless it was meant ironically.

It wasn't ironic.  Humans and Cylons ceased to exist as separate races because she jumped Galactica to Earth II.  I'm not sure how much I liked it.  "Harbinger of Death" is a lot darker than what actually happened.  But then again, perhaps by accident Ronald D Moore brilliantly faked out every Galactica fan with the ending of the show.

On one hand, Starbuck is the Harbinger of Death and Daybreak seems to be about Galactica going on a suicide mission.  On the other hand, they drop in little hints like "Not an ending, but a beginning" and "the miracle from the angels is coming."  When the utterly unexpected uplifting ending happens, you can't say it was a complete left turn.

(For what it's worth, I didn't plan on the dark and nihilistic ending that most BSG fans did.  But I think absolutely everyone who watched the show stared at the screen in disbelief as the surviving main characters got unabashedly uplifting endings.  It makes sense now, but at the time I was in shock.)

Inspired by my "33" review, I was wondering what people's favourite BSG episodes are.

Mine go like so:

1. Resurrection Ship
2. 33
3. Pegasus

I can't rank them.  I'll just point out really notable ones:

 - 33 - Probably the best standalone episode.

 -Kobol's Last Gleaming Parts 1 and 2 - This was when BSG put everything together and started really living up to its potential.

 - Fragged - One of the best episodes of the show, and no one talks about it.  Every scene involving the landing party is virtually perfect.  And Tigh declares martial law.

 - Pegasus - I dunno why, but I feel like this is in some ways the best single episode.  The cliffhanger is maybe the best ending of of any episode of any TV series.  Not just because it's exciting, but because at that point you're exactly in Adama's shoes.  Dealing with Admiral Cain has become too horrible and the line in the sand needs to be drawn.  Even when the steps out of the Raptor something seems wrong.  

In the abstract, the story is so basic:  Pegasus arrives and you think it's awesome, they mess up the harmony the cast has developed, they turn out to be bad, Adama can't put up with it anymore.  Unlike 33, it's not that inherently intriguing.  But every aspect of the execution twists the premise just enough to be interesting while playing it completely straight.  I need to stop because I write even more and get boring.

 - Black Market - Just kidding.

 - Scar - One of the ten best of the show.  More interestingly, I wrote "Scarred" at first and fortunately noticed it.

 - Lay Down Your Burdens - The show jumps another level and becomes this surreal amalgamation of everything I enjoy in TV.  Drama, politics, suspense, sci-fi, darkness, characters, humor.  Nothing is missing.

 - Occupation/Precipice/Exodus Part 1/Exodus Part 2 - The peak of the show.  The political allegory is maybe the best I've seen in any show.  We see the characters at (up to this point), their most unvarnished and the writing perfectly exposes their deeper natures.  It's grittier than most of the show.  The emotion of Exodus Part 2 is huge.  Most shows try to do the moral ambiguity thing and fail miserably.  The situations aren't clear to the characters, but to the viewer the solutions seem obvious.  In this case, it really is difficult to argue (a) Tigh shouldn't have been using suicide bombers and (b) the Adamas shouldn't have just left New Caprica behind.  Actually, I wouldn't even argue (a).  Suicide bombers were the correct tactic.  See?  I'm rooting for the suicide bombers?  Isn't that good writing?

Strangely, I've watched this with my dad and a friend, and neither of them got that into these episodes.  And they're the lowest rated episodes of the show.  Why this is I don't know.

 - Unfinished Business - Pure drama.  Works awesomely.

 - The Woman King - Black Market has good moments (such as Lee shooting the Green Beret from Commando) and is kind of entertaining.  This episode makes me angry from start to finish.  Nothing makes sense while simultaneously I knew exactly how it would end.  The reality matrix of a show shouldn't fall apart that completely.

 - A Day in the Life - Not one of the best, but underrated.  Just wanted to say that.

 - Sometimes a Great Notion - Took a day to recover from.

 - The Oath - This had the sense of pace of a network action show while being good like a premium cable show.  Just one awesome scene after another.

 - Daybreak Parts 1 and 2 - I cry like a bitch when I watch these episodes.  Yeah, whatever.

Speaking of BSG-related things I wish didn't exist: https://www.avclub.com/articles/another-battlestar-galactica-spinoff-on-the-way,46718/

I'm not confident in this show's quality.  Money seems to be the prime motivator.

And I'm done.

[Scurvy!Dreams]

I wasn't excited about Blood and Chrome at all when it was announced, but I'm warming up to it. Scar was awesome, and I've wanted a fighter/viper/x-wing pilot show for years. I have to see who they put on the production staff before I get my hopes up though.

[Adami]

I wasn't excited about Blood and Chrome at all when it was announced, but I'm warming up to it. Scar was awesome, and I've wanted a fighter/viper/x-wing pilot show for years. I have to see who they put on the production staff before I get my hopes up though.

Is there any updates on B&C? Aside from the fact that it's a new BSG spinoff about a young Adama in the first cylon war.

[Scurvy!Dreams]

I think the only other thing we know is that David Eick is involved.

But the BSG executive producers are both tied to a ton of projects right now, so who knows if that even means anything.

[Adami]

As long as the show does NOT have the same writers as Caprica.



Also, a few cameos from Caprica would be neat. Or else that show is going to be completely lost in history.

[Dimitrius]

SPOILERS! MY GOD! SPOILERS THAT RUIN THE WHOLE SHOW ARE AHEAD!

One thing, though, they kinda made a big deal about Starbuck being "the harbinger of death" and nothing comes of it, unless it was meant ironically.

It wasn't ironic.  Humans and Cylons ceased to exist as separate races because she jumped Galactica to Earth II.  I'm not sure how much I liked it.  "Harbinger of Death" is a lot darker than what actually happened.  But then again, perhaps by accident Ronald D Moore brilliantly faked out every Galactica fan with the ending of the show.

On one hand, Starbuck is the Harbinger of Death and Daybreak seems to be about Galactica going on a suicide mission.  On the other hand, they drop in little hints like "Not an ending, but a beginning" and "the miracle from the angels is coming."  When the utterly unexpected uplifting ending happens, you can't say it was a complete left turn.

(For what it's worth, I didn't plan on the dark and nihilistic ending that most BSG fans did.  But I think absolutely everyone who watched the show stared at the screen in disbelief as the surviving main characters got unabashedly uplifting endings.  It makes sense now, but at the time I was in shock.)

I see what you mean, but when someone hears "she is the harbinger of death" you'd think like Starbuck will we the downfall of humans to the cylons not the one to end the separation between the races because of finding a new Earth. But then again, few things on this show were as one would think.

[Progmetty]

So no one else but me felt really bad for Gaeta?

[Adami]

So no one else but me felt really bad for Gaeta?

The man was tragic. He suffered, did what he felt was right, and suffered the consequences for it.

[ariich]

Indeed, his story is tragic. But in the end he acted like a complete dick, so deserved what he got.

And what's wrong with Caprica? I'm really enjoying it so far.

[Adami]

Indeed, his story is tragic. But in the end he acted like a complete dick, so deserved what he got.

And what's wrong with Caprica? I'm really enjoying it so far.

Well I saw the initial movie thing for it. The one that ended with her waking up as a cylon. That was great I thought. Really played into BSG and explained some stuff.

Then the show kept going, and I gave it a chance. It got really into the mafia stuff and VR worlds and I just never had any idea what the hell the point of any of it was. Meanwhile this girl is a cylon but won't tell anyone for......well who knows why, and this guy is madly in love with her even though he just sees it as a big machine. Didn't make much sense.

I kinda just stopped caring after a few episodes and gave up. When the whole season comes out on DVD, I'll pick it up. But the writing just seemed to be going no where. Which is sad cause it had a superb cast who gave great performances. And it was great seeing Paula Malcomson again even if she wasn't saying the word "jew" alot.