All things Battlestar Galactica

[jammindude]

o......k.......

Not sure what to make of it.    Really felt like a "setup" episode didn't it?   It was very good...but definitely does not give the feeling of a stand-alone piece.    Very much as promised.   Like a build up to Season 4.

@bosk

I never really drew any conclusions as to who was and wasn't a Cylon.   My wife had the Chief pegged a LONG time ago.   (she's a smart one)    The rest I had a suspicion once they all starting hearing the same music....although Tigh was a *complete* shock once I realized it was true.   

[bosk1]

Yeah, I mean I honestly didn't love Razor the way a lot of people do either, but it's context that makes some things that are yet to occur make more sense.

So if I'm not mistaken, 10 of the 12 cylon humanoid models are now accounted for.  Or is it 11 at this stage?  Can't remember.  Any thoughts on the remaining one(s)?

[yorost]

Chief and Anders were long pegged as cylons by fans, though, it wasn't exactly planned. Both had hints, which could have been incidental, led to their choosing, or some of the later ones on purpose. This is a copy past from what I wrote to bosk1 summarizing the four and their hints...

Tyrol: Some people thought his relationship with Boomer gave hints, I don't buy it.  Cavil at the end of Season 2 says he fears he's a cylon.  The Temple of the Five was his coming out party.  Then he withstood the vacuum way better than his wife, in case you missed the Temple.

Anders: Anders survived pneumonia with no antibiotics and terrible living conditions with no explanation.  Not unthinkable, but a cylon would have much better odds than a human of doing so.  His groups continued survival on Caprica would have been a handily explained if they were 'normal' cylons.  This had helped make Anders a popular guess, though.  The giveaway was Caprica Three's apology.  She had meaningful screen time with three humans, Baltar, Cottle, and Anders.  She tortured Baltar, but was at that point his lover.  He was also soundly shown to be human an episode or two later.  Cottle there wasn't anything to apologize for.  Anders, she tried to murder face-to-face.

Tigh:  The loss of his eye might have been symbolism.  Otherwise the only possible hint is by close association with the other two in the resistance.  I think they probably weren't thinking about him until late, but those two things played nicely.

Tory: Nothing that I know.  I guess they just needed another one and didn't know what to do.

Bosk1 firmly disagrees with me regarding Anders and the apology, he thought it was for the torture of Tigh, I believe. There's a lot more to this, but we have to wait until later to discuss it due to spoilers. For now, I still hold that it meant Anders, with tv I think it had to be a direct connection to something on screen, so Anders was the only choice.

There really wasn't a lot, but of those four two had been pegged by fans. There's been no confirmation how long anyone thought about these characters, but the final decision on them were late. At the very, very, least, Tyrol had to have been know mid way through season 3 even though they've never said so. I think they suspected where they were going with him by the end of season 2. Fans suspicions on hints may have also led to their choosing, since they were starting to fit in people's minds, who knows. We know they weren't really absolute hints set by the show producers, but again, this is better discussed later to avoid spoilers from season 4.

[yorost]

Yeah, I mean I honestly didn't love Razor the way a lot of people do either, but it's context that makes some things that are yet to occur make more sense.

Yup, that one line, though, it changes the way you view season 4 so dramatically. It just flips Starbuck from a source of salvation to a complete danger. Pretty clever way to come back and throw everyone back to the drawing board on theories.

[jammindude]

11 are confirmed.    There were only the "final five" left, and four were confirmed....although, according to my wife, all 5 were confirmed.

Seems weird to have a spoiler alert for a 10 year old show...but consider this your warning.

At the very end of the final episode of Season 3, Starbuck finished the next line in the song.  My wife figures that seals the deal on her being the fifth, and I tend to agree.

[Dimitrius]

I don't see how it's hard to believe for everyone to be sad about Starbuck, as you said before, maybe your hates comes from knowing that type of person in real life, but she's been an extremely important figure in the fleet since the beginning! Fighting on every battle in the Vipers, a member of the resistance in New Caprica and being part of every important thing that has happened.

It's not just that....I just don't see how she is in any way a "likeable" character by any stretch of human imagination.   Especially when people like Baltar and the Cylons in general are held up as such "demons".    I mean, Baltar might be a chickens**t weasel....but he is still INFINITELY more "likeable" than Starbuck.   She is just obnoxious, mean spirited, vindictive, manipulative and has almost no redeemable human qualities beyond some exceptional technical skills.    I just couldn't suspend my disbelief enough to figure out why on earth anyone would have so little self respect as to stoop to actually sharing an emotional tie with her. 

Fair enough, and while I never hated Baltar like the people of the fleet do (and even some of my friends who watched the show), I understand why they wanted to kill him. New Caprica wasn't exactly a vacation and because they don't know better, they blame him.

[bosk1]

Yeah, I disagree about the "apology."  But, hey, that's fine.  The fact that it is vague and open to several plausible explanations is actually pretty cool, IMO. 

No comment on the fifth.  You'll just have to wait and see.    There are still a lot of cool twists and turns left. 


On another note, I still really need to see The Plan.  I forgot about it until this thread revived.  I need to see if NetFlix has it on their digital streaming list.

EDIT:  Shoot.  Doesn't look like they have it. 

[Perpetual Change]

I haven't seen The Plan either. I actually forgot it existed. I was more than satisfied with the finale so I'm not sure I'd want to ruin that with a not-so-good epilogue.

[bosk1]

But it's not an epilogue, so I think you're probably okay.  It covers the time period from just before the attack on the 12 colonies to when the two Cavil copies are flushed out of the Galactica airlock.

[Perpetual Change]

Ah, sounds cool.

So does it actually answer some of those unanswered questions?

[yorost]

I haven't seen The Plan, either. I don't know why, but it doesn't interest me.

[bosk1]

Ah, sounds cool.

So does it actually answer some of those unanswered questions?

Yes, but it depends on which questions you want answered.  From my understanding, it does not provide any huge new insight, but it presents insight into what the cylons were thinking in terms of why they came up with the plan to kill humanity, why that plan necessarily expanded to include killing the survivors, why it changed completely into wanting a truce, and why the whole thing failed.  From what I've read, it's kind of an interesting exercise in psychology seeing the two Cavils immerse themselves in humanity and being changed by that immersion, as Galatica Cavil has his hatred of humanity intensified by the experience while Caprica Cavil becomes sympathetic toward humanity.  That's the gist of it, from what I've read.

[Perpetual Change]

Hm. Cool, thanks. I'll definitely check it out.

And yeah, too bad it's not on Netflix.

[jammindude]

THAT CYLON HAG JUST SHOT THE CUTEST GIRL ON THE ENTIRE SHOW OUT THE AIRLOCK!!!!!

 

[jammindude]

I have to say that I have figured out why Baltar is the character I have the most sympathy for at this point.  (I'm about 5 or 6 shows into season 4 now)

I don't defend his every action...and he really lacks a strong sense of loyalty and dedication to anyone other than himself.    But for all of his faults, you know what I like about him?   He has NEVER hated anyone, or raised his hand against anyone...or even ordered anyone else to take out some act of violence for him out of a sense of revenge.    I've never seen him be a spiteful or resentful or hateful person.    He's selfish to a fault at times...but he harbors no grudges against anyone.   And that part of him really makes me feel like he IS the better man than most of the so-called "good guys" from the show, in spite of his faults. 

[yorost]

Butterfingers!   ...his relationship with the little twerp Gaeta is interesting, I love where it goes in season 4.

[Dimitrius]

That's one of the things I love about the show, they sometimes make you question who you're really rooting for and everyone is pretty much grey... except for Helo who's a shining knight of justice (which makes me hate him).

[yorost]

Helo is just as gray. Acts to blindly stubborn without giving a damn if he is right or not, just that he thinks he is right. ...and not just on textbook technicalities, he is genuinely dangerous to humanity.

[yorost]

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/05/201357123155791818.html

Pennsylvania fracking itself to death! I wonder what that must be like, a whole state, to the death.

https://www.jsonline.com/news/usandworld/plans-to-export-us-natural-gas-stir-debate-vu9u1b0-207125131.html

Now U.S. producers are poised to ship vast quantities of gas overseas ... could set off a renewed frenzy of fracking.

They sure do get excited about those sales.

[GuineaPig]

Helo is just as gray. Acts to blindly stubborn without giving a damn if he is right or not, just that he thinks he is right. ...and not just on textbook technicalities, he is genuinely dangerous to humanity.

He might be, in like Game of Thrones or something, but I think BSG plays it very straight with regards to Helo.  I don't think any of the creative crew has ever said otherwise.

[bosk1]

There is a seeming plot hole that is bothering me just because it seems very obvious, but I have not seen it addressed anywhere.  I have been rewatching, and am in the middle of the occupation of New Caprica.  There are lots of little things one could nitpick, and, yes, it's just a fun sci-fi show, so you just have to suspend belief and go with all the little faults and inconsistencies if you want to be able to enjoy it.  But here's the one that bugs me:

In the last episode of season 2 when the Cylons first show up on New Caprica, the #5 model tells Baltar that they had no idea where the fleet had gone to, and probably wouldn't have found them except for the nuclear blast signature from the Natalie #6 model blowing up the Cloud Nine.  That doesn't seem likely.  I guess there are a few possible explanations, including maybe #5 was lying to Baltar just to screw with him and make him feel more guilty.  But I think more likely, it's just a plot hole.  The reason is, they knew about New Caprica, and there were talks of colonizing it, before they discovered that the Galactica Cavill was a Cylon.  When he was airlocked, he would have known that the colonists were going there.  Even if he wasn't privy to the exact coordinates, he would have known that wherever it was, it was only one jump away and he would have had enough other details that the Cylons should have easily been able to find it even if they didn't know exactly where it is.  Has anyone seen any discussion of this point anywhere?  Anyone have any theories?

Another related problem I have with this very same arc is, once Natalie blows up the Cloud Nine with Baltar's nuke, there would have/should have been a major investigation of Baltar.  You don't just have a nuke go missing and then be detonated and kill thousands, and just say, "Oops, well next time, be more careful about where you store those nukes, okay doc?" 

This is one of the few places where the writing seems to have gotten sloppy and they had plotlines that just seem to have outright mistakes in them.

[Jaq]

I tend to attribute any of the plot holes and oddities at the end of the second season to how the writers got caught up in the mid-finale timeskip (I own a book guide to the second season, and Moore in particular enthused a lot about how nobody had done that sort of mid-episode skip and how fantastic the idea was) and some things fell through the cracks in their interest to cram as much "here's what's happened!" into the episode. Which may be why most shows don't do mid-episode time skips. 

[bosk1]

Yeah, that could be.  And if the consensus is that it was just a mistake, I can live with that.  I was just hoping there was some explanation I wasn't seeing and that you guys could convince me all is well. 

This has already been said, I think, but having just watched the end of Exodus pt. 2 again last night, I have to say again:  That final hangar scene focusing on Adama, Tigh, and Starbuck is probably the most simultaneously triumphant and tragic scenes in the entire series and is just SO well done.  That may be my favorite episode.

[yorost]

Explaining the nuclear blast reason? The questions I have is, how much of an area does one jump cover and how accurately did Cavil know the starting point? Especially given that it's a sphere of free movement, maybe the Cylons just don't have the proper resources to search the possible area exhaustively. The nuclear blast could have pinpointed them to other information, like being able to determine the fleet's trajectory. Might be hard to justify spending years searching for a fleet you're not completely sure settled down permanently. ...so finding the nuclear blast maybe just made an infeasible or daunting task of searching easy.

Do we know that Cavil was resurrected? If they weren't within range of resurrection ship that information may have just been lost. (Looked it up, apparently he was according to The Plan, which I still haven't seen)

Baltar and nuclear bomb? I don't remember the details of this story, but it feels like maybe it was 'stupid' on everyone's judgment. Did they just leave him in charge of its security? I'd possibly blame whoever did that as he's obviously no full time security detail.

[bosk1]

Baltar and nuclear bomb? I don't remember the details of this story, but it feels like maybe it was 'stupid' on everyone's judgment. Did they just leave him in charge of its security? I'd possibly blame whoever did that as he's obviously no full time security detail.

Baltar gave the nuke to Natalie's terrorist friend, who brought it back to Cloud Nine and gave it to Natalie, as instructed.  Baltar wins the election and announces that they are going to colonize New Caprica immediately.  He then goes to see Natalie to tell her they can be together on New Caprica.  She said she isn't going, has sex with him, and then detonates the bomb when he leaves, which takes out Cloud Nine and at least two other ships, killing a few thousand people.

It isn't clear whether the Quorum was onboard the Cloud Nine and where killed in the blast.  Whether they were or not, I'm willing to concede that Baltar was essentially in the position of a dictator.  But notwithstanding that, it would be completely out of character for Adama, the press, and various other strong personalities we have seen to have just said, "Hmmm, well, President Baltar just wants to move on and not ask any questions, so we'll just let slide the fact that a nuke that he had custody of somehow got onboard Cloud Nine and was detonated, killing a few thousand people and destroying at least three of the precious few ships left in existence."  There's no way Adama lets that go.

[bosk1]

I miss this show.

[Fiery Winds]

I miss this show.

Me too.  Fortunately, my best friend gets back from grad school at the end of the month, and we're picking up in the middle of season 4 the day after she flies back.    She's a new viewer, this will be my 3rd time through.

[bosk1]

**SPOILERS**  (well, duh...)

Anders . . . The giveaway was Caprica Three's apology.  She had meaningful screen time with three humans, Baltar, Cottle, and Anders.  She tortured Baltar, but was at that point his lover.  He was also soundly shown to be human an episode or two later.  Cottle there wasn't anything to apologize for.  Anders, she tried to murder face-to-face.

My second time through, I'm softening a bit to this.  But overall, I have to say that I still think it's wrong.  What the Cylons did to Saul and Ellen Tigh on New Caprica was far, FAR worse than her ever-so-brief tussle with Anders.  If she had "killed" Anders, he would resurrect, not much worse for wear.  Saul was physically tortured and had an eye gouged out, not to mention being couped up in solitary.  Ellen was forced to whore herself out to one of the Cavill's.  And both were forced to live in fear in what amounted to a concentration camp for a couple of years.  And seeing all five, she would have reacted the way she did and apologized so profoundly to Anders, while not saying a word to the Tighs?  Sorry, I don't buy it.

[bosk1]

**SPOILERS**  (well, duh...)

Anders . . . The giveaway was Caprica Three's apology.  She had meaningful screen time with three humans, Baltar, Cottle, and Anders.  She tortured Baltar, but was at that point his lover.  He was also soundly shown to be human an episode or two later.  Cottle there wasn't anything to apologize for.  Anders, she tried to murder face-to-face.

My second time through, I'm softening a bit to this.  But overall, I have to say that I still think it's wrong.  What the Cylons did to Saul and Ellen Tigh on New Caprica was far, FAR worse than her ever-so-brief tussle with Anders.  If she had "killed" Anders, he would resurrect, not much worse for wear.  Saul was physically tortured and had an eye gouged out, not to mention being couped up in solitary.  Ellen was forced to whore herself out to one of the Cavill's.  And both were forced to live in fear in what amounted to a concentration camp for a couple of years.  And seeing all five, she would have reacted the way she did and apologized so profoundly to Anders, while not saying a word to the Tighs?  Sorry, I don't buy it.

Just read something online where Moore confirmed that it was intended to be to Ellen.  Makes sense.  I win.

[bosk1]

So...finally saw The Plan over the weekend. 

***SPOILERS (DUH!)***







Initial gripe:  There was no need to put gratuitous porn in the movie.  It added absolutely nothing and was pointless and tasteless.

That being said, aside from that, it was actually quite good.  It was cool seeing a lot of the events we were already familiar with being viewed from the Cylon perspective. 

Interestingly, I think one of the characters that got developed the most despite many of her key transformational moments not being shown at all was Boomer.  The scenes from the series where she has been resurrected on Caprica and is struggling with her identity really took on a completely different light as a result of seeing the level of manipulation Cavill exerted over her.  She is a much more pitiable character in light of the cruelty of that manipulation. 

I liked that there was more done with the Fours, since they were probably the least significant of the numbered models in the series.  What was done with them in this movie added a bit of depth that felt completely consistent with their treatment in the series as a whole.  The backstory of the Four that was in the fleet that had married a human was excellent.  And his wife was a really interesting, compelling character as well.  Her interaction with the Chief toward the end was one of the most powerful scenes in the entire movie.

Poor Fives.  They were really made out to be the doofuses of the Cylon race.  That wasn't really there in the series, but it felt consistent was well.  The "But his jacket was burgundy. This is teal." was hilarious.

Of course, the two Cavills were center stage.  Galactica Cavill became even more evil and sinister.  The way he was played was a great exposition of the same character that we saw go so quickly from cold and calculating to manic and obsessive at the drop of a hat in the series.  Caprica Cavill, on the other hand, seemed a bit more inconsistent.  The writers had a difficult task with his character because they needed to show a credible transformation from essentially being the same as Galactica Cavill in the beginning, to eventually winding up truly realizing that the plan was a mistake.  That's a very challenging transformation to try to portray and make believable.  I think they did a mediocre job with it, but not great by any stretch.  I could understand the way his motivation was portrayed, but I never truly bought it either.  Again, not that it didn't make sense, but it just wasn't presented with enough weight to truly pursuade the viewer that it was significant enough to truly move him.  Although we did see some of the struggles he had trying to reconcile what he was feeling with the plan itself, something about it all fell just a little bit short of selling me on it 100%.  I was mostly there, but not completely.  But again, this was a huge challenge, and I definitely don't think the writers botched it by any stretch.  I just wish it had been done just a little bit better.  Minor gripe in the context of the bigger picture.

Another standout moment for me in the series was "Hooker Six"'s monologue toward the end where she basically forces the audience to a conclusion we didn't want to draw, which is basically, "We Cylons are supposed to be cold, calculating kiling machines.  But in terms of wiping out humanity, we really aren't very good at this."  The horror!  We as the audience were repeatedly drawn to the brink of that conclusion in the series, only to have Moore and his writers repeatedly snatch us back in a variety of ways.  Six does the same here by pointing out that the X-factor in every scenario where they failed was love.  Which is basically one of the major themes and one of the major plot arcs in the series.  I mean, the Cylons basically become almost more human than the humans who created them by learning what love is.  I thought that having that theme echoed here by that particular Six in that particular monologue was brilliant. 

Overall, I thought it was very good.  Yes, it had some flaws.  But it nicely complemented the series.  And while it did not bring much new substance to the table, it brought some new and interesting layers to what was already there.  After having seen it, I think the few criticisms I have seen of it are largely unjustified. 

[bosk1]

Since I'm not sure people are getting the concept of "discussion forum," I will clarify:  I said some stuff.  Your turn now, guys.

[ariich]

Patience bosky. You said a lot of stuff.

I liked The Plan. It wasn't perfect, and it's kinda weird having it after the finale because the stories have all been completed, but it does provide some great extra context and mostly does it really nicely.

I've actually been watching BSG through again, my third watch through, having not watched it in maybe 3 years. Been wanting to watch it again for a while and fortunately my girlfriend expressed an interest, and she's been loving it. We're just in the early stages of season 4 at the moment, and I'm enjoying it just as much this time as I did before. Damn do I love this show!

[ResultsMayVary]

Just started watching this a few weeks ago. A friend suggested it off-hand when talking about TV shows and then I ended up bored one day, so I was able to give it a shot. I'm on season two right now and I was absolutely blown away with the first two episodes of the series to begin with (the 90-minute ones). The effects seem top-notch, too. Really good for a show that started airing only in 2003. Can't wait to watch more when I have the time to do so.

[bosk1]

Just started watching this a few weeks ago. A friend suggested it off-hand when talking about TV shows and then I ended up bored one day, so I was able to give it a shot. I'm on season two right now and I was absolutely blown away with the first two episodes of the series to begin with (the 90-minute ones). The effects seem top-notch, too. Really good for a show that started airing only in 2003. Can't wait to watch more when I have the time to do so.

Be careful about not looking at spoilers!  I recommend NOT reading back through the thread until you are done.  DON'T DO IT!  But feel free to pop in and post, and we can comment without giving anything away.

[bosk1]

Patience bosky. You said a lot of stuff.

I liked The Plan. It wasn't perfect, and it's kinda weird having it after the finale because the stories have all been completed, but it does provide some great extra context and mostly does it really nicely.

I've actually been watching BSG through again, my third watch through, having not watched it in maybe 3 years. Been wanting to watch it again for a while and fortunately my girlfriend expressed an interest, and she's been loving it. We're just in the early stages of season 4 at the moment, and I'm enjoying it just as much this time as I did before. Damn do I love this show!

Yay, discussion!    Some really cool hybrid utterances in The Plan as well.  These don't spoil anything, so no spoiler tags.  Here are a couple of my favorites:

One of the most chilling monologues ever from the hybrid during the attack:

Progress reports arriving. The farms of Aerolon are burning. The beaches of Canceron are burning. The plains of Leonis are burning. The jungles of Scorpia are burning. The pastures of Tauron are burning. The harbors of Picon are burning. The cities of Caprica are burning. The oceans of Aquaria are burning. The courthouses of Libran are burning. The forests of Virgon are burning. The Colonies of Man lie trampled at our feet.

 

The way those lines were delivered, along with the visual imagery...just...wow.

Another one, that has a bit of awesome with a bit of funny at the end:

Counting down. All functions nominal. All functions optimal. Counting down. The center holds. The falcon hears the falconer. Infrastructure, check. Wetware, check. Everyone hang on to the lap bar, please.