Author Topic: Emerson Lake & Palmer Discography  (Read 47264 times)

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2013, 10:18:04 AM »
I don't know why, but I've never really been a fan of the Moog solo. I get that it's supposed to be really groundbreaking and all, but it's always seemed hamfisted in to me. But listening to it on the vinyl hooked up to good speakers last night (instead of wimpy car speakers) I did appreciate it a lot more. For one, I realized just how much that synth takes over the entire sound spectrum of the song. Conceptually, it almost makes sense, as a musical parallel to the lyrical theme that something nice can be abruptly and arbitrarily halted by the occurance of a random event that changes everything.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2013, 10:57:01 AM »
Emerson himself hated the solo, calling it "a lot of shit, actually" but Lake insisted that he play something.  All three of them play on every track at least somewhere, and without the Moog solo, Emerson had nothing.  The problem is that he had only had the Moog for a short while, and hadn't learned how to use it.

This is speculation on my part, but what separates a synthesizer from, say, an organ or other electronic keyboard, is the envelopes, filters, and portamento.  Emerson therefore came up with a patch that exploited each of these things, showed them off a bit.  This was not an organ solo; this was something new and different.  I can totally understand him looking back at it in an interview and call it shit, but at the time, it was pretty awesome.  That's a big, fat sound he's got there.  Today's digital synths still don't sound as good as an analog synth in the hands of someone who knows how to use one.

Offline Nihil-Morari

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2013, 11:20:48 AM »
Totally true. The sound is awesome, the effects are great too, the choice of notes is just a bit submissive to the sound. Although I can understand that Emerson himself isn't pleased. You can have a great sound, have great effects ánd play great notes too.
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Offline ytserush

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2013, 07:00:07 PM »
I knew this was going to happen sooner or later.  I won't be able to give this thread the attention it rightly deserves, but I'll give it a shot.

I love this band. I first got into them in 1980 when the Islanders used Fanfare For The Common Man as the intro to its telecasts during the Stanley Cup years and I was smitten and bought Works Volume I.

Within four years I had everything. I'd rate them higher than Yes and Genesis (at least Gabriel Genesis) although they are amazing also.

I don't have the new reissue of the first album yet, but I love it. I think I have the Sanctuary signature pressing. (Although over the years I've gotten and resold more of those reissues more times than I'd like to admit. (First there was the intitial Atlantic pressings followed by Victory, Rhino, Santuary, Castle, Sony and who knows how many more now.)



For those who love ELP, you  should really check out the Nice which are very underated even though they didn't last very long. I think there albums and live performances are almost as legendary as ELPs.


I've often wondered what would have happened if Hendrix and Emerson ever got together as had been speculated back then.

Was not a fan of Lucky Man. Supposedly they needed one more song for the album and Greg Lake brought in that song (Lucky Man) which he had written in some form when he was 13.



Are you going to review the Isle of Weight performance which was the second time they performed as a band?


Offline Jaq

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2013, 11:20:07 PM »
I've been reading up on ELP with the launch of this thread, and I've actually read that Lucky Man wasn't actually recorded at the last minute in order to fill out a contractually obligated 21 minutes per side; it was one of the earliest songs recorded in the session that produced this album according to the session notes. So that's actually an uban legend that's taken on a life of its own-to the point that All Music's review of the song itself repeats the story. But it's a GREAT story.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2013, 07:07:38 AM »
Where did you read that, Jaq?  It is a good story, but I can't have it in the writeup if it's not true.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2013, 08:38:47 AM »
Hmmm, this might be one of those "You can't believe everything you read on the internet" situations, because I am 99% sure I saw an interview with the band a long time ago where they briefly talked about how Lucky Man was a last minute throw-on to the debut record.  I can't remember where or when, just that I remember seeing it.

Offline Jaq

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2013, 08:44:00 AM »
The funny thing is, now I can't find where I found it other than Wikipedia, but I know I read it somewhere else! Maybe it's something that's taken on such a life of its own even the band remembers it that way...or I'm full of shit  :lol

Ah ha! I found this:

"Although the story behind the recording of LUCKY MAN is that the song was recorded at the end of the ELP debut album sessions, this might not be true. According to the liner notes in the ELP box set "Return To Manticore," the album was recorded from July to September 1970 (on either side of their appearance at the Isle of Wight Festival). The liner notes states that LUCKY MAN being recorded at the July session (wheras "Knife Edge" and "Three Fates" from the album were recorded in September). Either the liner notes are incorrect, or the truth is that LUCKY MAN was not a last-minute leftover for the album after all!!"

It's a comment on this page:

https://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=3661

Knew I read it somewhere other than Wiki.

And the source for what I read on Wiki is:

https://northcyprusfreepress.com/entertainment/top-100-rock-songs/top-100-rock-songs-emerson-lake-and-palmer-lucky-man/
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 08:52:22 AM by Jaq »
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2013, 10:13:05 AM »
Argh.  You know, I had never actually heard/read that story until I was researching the album, and I thought it was interesting enough to include.  Upon closer inspection, it doesn't actually make much sense, because one of the reasons Greg Lake left King Crimson was because he considered himself primarily and singer/songwriter/guitarist, and he would only be able fulfill one, maybe two, of those aspirations in King Crimson.

The part that doesn't make sense is where he doesn't have a bunch of songs he's written over the years, just waiting for a chance to record them with someone.  And if he did, why pull out one he wrote when he was a kid?  He'd have other songs he's written since then which he'd be more fond of and/or consider more appropriate for the debut album.  I know that a lot of people think the lyrics are pretty bad/simple/whatever, so maybe the idea that it was written when he was just a kid seemed like an excuse, and the story grew from there.

The logs from the recording sessions are enough proof for me.  I consider the urban legend debunked and will amend the writeup.

Offline Jaq

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2013, 10:33:46 AM »
I think it's just a story to explain why such a relatively simple song wound up on such an ambitious album myself. "Oh, yeah, Lucky Man, right, uhm, I wrote it when I was 12, and we just stuck it on the album at the last minute to make the label happy!" It just took a life of its own to the point that it became truth...except for those pesky liner notes.  :lol
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Offline ytserush

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2013, 09:21:35 PM »
Well, I orginally rediscovered that Lucky Man story a few months back here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlcLwwjEdBE


Also, one of my copies of the first album (The Castle/Santuary pressing)  has an account to the session in the liner notes.

I'm not going to type out the whole passage, but here's a line or two from the liners notes.

"No one had anything else and we had already recorded what had been written for the album so I suggested a folk song I'd written just after I'd learned guitar when I was about 12 years old. It was called 'Lucky Man.'"

It goes on to explain more about how the song was adpated for ELP.


Greg Lake is the source of both of these so it possible he's not being truthful in the interest of creating a fish story or trying to build a myth.


I have the Return Of The Manticore Box and while it does say that Rondo, 21st Century Schizoid Man and Lucky Man were recorded before Isle of Weight, the essay likely written in 1993 when the box was released is uncredited as well as simplistic and somewhat vague leading me to believe it was written in a hurry and more susceptible to error.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2013, 10:39:20 PM »
Wow, so it's true.  I'll take it from Greg.  Yeah, I guess it's still possible that he's trying to perpetuate a myth, but I can't see why.

So... I'm going to edit the writeup one last time, remove all references to the story or when "Lucky Man" was recorded during the sessions, and just leave it.  The writeup itself is only meant to spur discussion, and what we've gone over here in the thread is far better than me just including a summary anyway.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2013, 11:54:20 PM »
Well, I orginally rediscovered that Lucky Man story a few months back here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlcLwwjEdBE




HOLY CRAP!!   WHO ATE GREG????
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2013, 09:31:29 AM »
Hmmm, this might be one of those "You can't believe everything you read on the internet" situations, because I am 99% sure I saw an interview with the band a long time ago where they briefly talked about how Lucky Man was a last minute throw-on to the debut record.  I can't remember where or when, just that I remember seeing it.

*ahem* ;)

Offline Jaq

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer (1970)
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2013, 09:45:13 AM »
Ahh, the hilarity of competing sources. Still feels more like a story that became true along the way to me, since bands love mythmaking, but what the hell.  :lol
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Offline Orbert

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Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2013, 10:59:09 PM »
Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)


(click for larger view, although honestly it's not that interesting)

The inside gatefold tells the story of Tarkus. I just wish I could find a larger version.


Tarkus
  Eruption
  Stones of Years
  Iconoclast
  Mass
  Manticore
  Battlefield
  Aquatarkus
Jeremy Bender
Bitches Crystal
The Only Way (Hymn) / Infinite Space (Conclusion)
A Time and a Place
Are You Ready, Eddy?

----------

The side-long epic, the benchmark of 70's progressive rock.  As the whole idea of prog was to push the boundaries, it seemed that creating a single work filling the entire side of an LP, be it a suite or a song in multiple movements, was something most if not all prog bands attempted at least once.  Yes have done it nine times so far.  Genesis only did it once, but their "Supper's Ready" was longer than any of the Yes epics.  But if we're talking superlatives, true progheads know that Emerson Lake & Palmer did it first.  Tarkus came out a year before either Close to the Edge or Foxtrot.

Side One of Tarkus, Emerson Lake & Palmer's follow-up to their very successful self-titled debut, is a suite in seven movements also titled "Tarkus".  It starts and ends with instrumentals, and alternates between instrumentals and songs, telling the story of a biomechanical creature who is basically a cross between an armadillo and a tank, complete with gun turrets.  On a larger scale, the song is about the futility of war.  There is a lot of violent imagery, musically, lyrically, and in the album artwork, and things do not end well for Tarkus.  According to Emerson, it was written in six days, during a great rush of inspiration.  The instrumentals are all credited to Emerson.  The first two songs are credited to Emerson/Lake, with the third solely to Lake.

Emerson and Palmer were both very excited by the possibilities and challenges presented by such a piece, while Lake really was not, and the band almost broke up over it.  Lake told Emerson that if he wanted to do such things, he should do them on a solo album.  Band management convinced Lake not to leave, and he eventually warmed up to it.

"Eruption" - Tarkus is born in an erupting volcano.  The main theme is introduced, a driving, percussive riff in 5/4 based on fourths and tri-tones.  Against this backdrop, played on Hammond organ and drums, comes the "Tarkus" sound, a huge, thick Moog sound similar to the one used in the "Lucky Man" solo from the first album.

"Stones of Years" - The first song, a philosophical meandering full of clever wordplay and not making a lot of literal sense.  But the words sound nice.  "Stones of Years" was released as a single, and it reached #1 on the U.K. charts and #9 in the U.S.

"Iconoclast" - Tarkus continues his rampage, facing down other biomechanical creatures.  The 5/4 riffs returns, this time with a Hammond solo over it.

"Mass" - A song seemingly about religion, perhaps as a solution to violence and war.  The lyrics are full of the wordplay and internal rhymes that Lake was so fond of during this period.

"Manticore" - The manticore (a mythical creature with the body of a lion, face of a man, and tail of a scorpion) arrives, with its own theme, a variation of the Tarkus riff, in 9/8 this time.  Based on three groups of three, this is the first and only instrumental with a somewhat "normal" feel to it, allowing Emerson to solo in three (again on the Hammond) and interject some of his signature musical quirks and quotes. 

"Battlefield" - As Tarkus and the manticore face each other, the final vocal section muses about war and futility, a common theme in early 70's music.  Lake's electric guitar makes its first appearance on the album, and he even takes the solo, since it's his song.

"Aquatarkus" - Tarkus is defeated by the manticore, his body ending up in a river.  Aqua + tarkus.  The 5/4 riff and the Tarkus theme return, and the suite concludes.


Side Two is often overlooked as mere filler.  Certainly, the title suite on Side One is the main attraction, but I recently acquired the new 5.1 mix of Tarkus, and Side Two (really just the second half of the album, since discs have no sides) really hit me hard for the first time.

"Jeremy Bender" - Emerson Lake & Palmer had many diverse influences, and Emerson's affection for the American West and honky-tonk music was one of them.  "Jeremy Bender" tells the strange story of a man who decides to become a nun, either as a way of meeting girls or to fulfill his cross-dressing needs; it's not really clear.

"Bitches Crystal" - More detuned piano, but this time with a driving 12/8 beat and synths helping provide atmosphere.  The solo is on a detuned piano, with Emerson totally rocking it, then it is intercut with a lilting, music-box riff, resulting in a strange, anachronistic feeling.  Lake's vicious, driving words with their internal rhythm and rhyme add to the overall manic feel of the song.  Not for everyone, but a great high-energy barnburner if you can handle it.

"The Only Way (Hymn)" and "Infinite Space (Conclusion)" - The pipe organ makes its return in the first part of this two-part suite, with its somewhat cynical and sarcastic look at religion.  Emerson's masterful pipe organ backdrop, fully supporting Lake's soaring voice, gives way to a brief interlude jazz-trio interlude (with Palmer's only appearance), then the final verse has Emerson's acoustic piano and Lake's multitracked voices.  The "conclusion" is an instrumental, performed by piano, bass, and drums.  It's dominated by Emerson's piano solo, with the left hand assuming an ostinato and the right hand playing against it both rhythmically and tonally.  It's something of an experimental piece, recalling some of the more atonal moments from his solo during "Take a Pebble".

"A Time and a Place" - The first of two tracks credited to Emerson/Lake/Palmer, here we have Palmer's driving beat, Lake's manic lyrics and vocals, and Emerson breaking out his full arsenal of Hammond organ, piano, and Moog.  Also, he's learned to program the Moog into some truly impressive brass sounds, and they really scream.

"Are You Ready, Eddy?" - After an album's worth of insane, aggressive, arrogant prog, ELP show that they can goof around with the best of them.  It's a 12-bar blues, based on a very simple question: Are you, Eddy, ready for this next track?  (Eddy Offord engineered and/or produced most of both Yes and ELP's early output, as well as John Lennon, Procol Harum, and countless others.)  After not one, but two psychotic piano solos and several verses both praising and questioning Eddy's skills on the sixteen tracks and faders, things break down at the end when the sandwiches arrive, and they've only got ham or cheese.  Ham or cheese.

----------

Albums were shorter back then.  Songs were shorter back then.  True, Yes had been stretching things out for a while by this point, but it was not yet the norm, even in prog.  Of course, there was no "prog" yet.  Bands were still called Art Rock at this time, and were still figuring out what they could do and how to do it.  Perhaps after the debut, ELP simply made a decision to tighten things up.  After all, their debut only had six tracks and the average length was nearly double what it is here. 

But that's just speculation.  The bottom line is that the amazing title suite goes through seven movements in less than 21 minutes; do the math.  Emerson said that in restrospect, it's not really well done.  It changes ideas too quickly.  And Side Two is shorter than that, with six tracks of its own.  Perhaps the reason why Side Two is overall less satisfying for many is because the songs are all rather short, especially by prog standards.  They're just basic songs.  Now, to an ELP fan, they're great songs; there's still plenty here to dig into, but it's not surprising that people tend to focus on the title suite and dismiss the rest.  I know I did for a long time.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 05:13:17 PM by Orbert »

Offline Nel

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2013, 11:31:25 PM »
I loooove this album. The title track (that is how you start off a track about an epic battle... involving an... armadillo tank? Even better!), the second side is full of great tracks too. I love how off the wall Bitches Crystal gets, and I've always enjoyed The Only Way and Infinite Space together. The only weak spot for me is Are You Ready Eddy?, as it just sounds like a throwaway to me. And the album cover. I've loved it ever since I was a kid. I want a Tarkus action figure, damn it!

Like others in the thread though, I'm not so much attached to ELP like I am to Yes or Genesis. Can't explain why, I know they're one of the "big 5" or whatever, but there was always something missing in their music that never drew me to them as much. That keyboard is so prominent that it just kind of drains me after a while. It's why I didn't really comment on the s/t release, and probably won't have much to say about the other albums, barring two future songs that I really love. That said, Tarkus is one of my favorite albums ever, just because of how high quality most of it is.

Also, LegoTarkus ftw.

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Offline sirbradford117

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2013, 06:39:05 AM »
I GREATLY prefer the live version of Tarkus from Welcome Back... to the studio cut.  It's probably because it's what I heard first.  However, I love how most of it is taken at a faster tempo, how "Epitaph" is teased, and the extended solo in "Aquatarkus."
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2013, 07:28:04 AM »
LegoTarkus ftw.



Awesome!  I saw that while I was Googlesearching album art, and I'm glad you included it here.  Is that Lego Luke Skywalker next to Tarkus, with an emo haircut?

I know what you mean about ELP somehow not quite drawing me back the same way Yes and Genesis do.  For me, it's because Yes and Genesis both sought to make truly organic music.  They each had massive talent in the band, but the parts blended into some really beautiful music.  With ELP, it almost seemed like the guys were constantly fighting each other musically.  They each had plenty of space, and used it, but then the challenge became getting the parts to fit.  ELP had a different approach to their music, and had a lot more going on, which is why it's great if you're in the mood, but sometimes hard to listen to.

I GREATLY prefer the live version of Tarkus from Welcome Back... to the studio cut.  It's probably because it's what I heard first.  However, I love how most of it is taken at a faster tempo, how "Epitaph" is teased, and the extended solo in "Aquatarkus."

Yeah, I started with the live album, too.  But I like the studio version of "Tarkus" almost as much.  With the slower tempo, especially to the main 5/4 theme, it really feels more mechanical, more percussive, and I like that.  It seems to fit better with the concept than just ripping through it as fast as you can play it.  And the first time I heard the original Tarkus sound on the Modular Moog... holy shit!  It's a shame that it only shows up twice in the whole song.  The same lick on MiniMoog doesn't have nearly the impact; it's just a musical line to be played.  Also, the solos are all different and quite cool, and Lake of course gets all the words right.  Once I became more familiar with ELP, it was fun listening to the live album and noticing how many times Lake messes up the words.

But I completely agree with you about the live solo in "Aquatarkus".  It's mindbending.  Emerson was the master of the Moog.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2013, 08:06:17 AM »
Fun fact: for a spell back in the 90s, I had TARKUS as my personalized license plate.

So yeah, huge fan of the song.  First time I heard the Stones of Years section (live, in '92), I thought that that was the most awesome vocal melody I had ever heard. 

But does anyone else think it is a little weird that the 40 plus section at the end of the song that repeats what they did at the beginning is not only the same verbatim, but it is literally the same.  Like, they didn't even play it slightly different.  It is like they played it once and used it at the beginning and the end.  That's always struck me as a little odd.  That aside, Tarkus is still an incredible song and easily my favorite ELP song.

As for the rest of the album, I am not a big fan of most of it, though I do love Bitches Crystal. 

Offline Jaq

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2013, 09:38:10 AM »
First, LEGO TARKUS. That's amazing. :D

Second, finding a larger image of the inner sleeve of Tarkus online is something I've been trying to find for years. Friend of mine had the vinyl, and I loved the hell out of it.

As to the album itself-I love half of it. The title track, of course, is awesome, and is one of the best tracks in the history of prog rock period. I prefer the live version since that, as well, was the version I heard first, but the studio version's pretty awesome too. I'd be a failure as a DT fan if I didn't mention the full length version of Tarkus that appears on Jordan Rudess' prog covers album The Road Home, but I'm going to go the extra mile and mention the shortened version of the song that appeared on Magna Carta's ELP tribute album that not only featured JLB singing a bit of Stones of Years AND Derek Sherinian shredding madly on the end keyboard solo. There, my DT nerdery is done. Back to the actual song itself, given that it's the first side long suite in prog, it's actually pretty well thought out and put together. It wasn't the first suite song in music-Procul Harum at least was there in 1968 with In Held 'Twas in I, though that's four minutes shorter-but ELP took it to the next level with Tarkus. Of the early prog epics, this one is easily the most complex and ambitious, which makes its existence as one of the earliest all the more stunning.

The rest of the album? To me, it's kind of like my relationship these days with Rush's 2112. There's a couple of worthwhile songs on side two (A Time And A Place and Bitches Crystal) but I just mostly give the title track a listen and move on to something else. (In case you're wondering, the Rush tracks that I give the time of day to on 2112's second side are Something For Nothing and A Passage To Bangkok.) Tarkus is an album that, if you're just getting into prog, you have to hear sooner or later, just because of the historical importance of the title track. True, critics tend to forget these days how monumental an effort that song was for the time and focus on the armadillo tank story, but fuck 'em. The song's brilliant.
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings become dust in the wake of the hymn.
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall, no more than a breath on the wind.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2013, 09:40:24 AM »
I'm not big on Tarkus. While there's some interesting going on during both sides, the title track always strikes me as overbaked and ridiculous, while side two is a real mixed bag. "Jeremy Bender" is good, but only because I love Copland, and also because I ignore the terrible lyrics. "The Only Way" reeks of self-righteous indignation, which is pretty common any time ELP write about religion. "Bitches Crystal" is alright, I guess. Different, for ELP, but not particularly memorable. Fortunately, it's all up from here for awhile. 

The version I'm listening to comes with a bonus track: "Oh, My Father". This is, imo, a better song than any on the actual album, thought it has a chord progression which kinda reminds me of Jimi Hendrix's "Hey Joe".

Did anyone listen to the version of Tarkus with Steve Wilson on vocals for Jordan Rudess' solo record? I'm not gonna lie; I like Rudess' version a bit better.

Quote
Like, they didn't even play it slightly different.  It is like they played it once and used it at the beginning and the end.  That's always struck me as a little odd.  That aside, Tarkus is still an incredible song and easily my favorite ELP song.
I only noticed it today, and it really bothered me. I actually thought that it was a remastered version of the song tacked in on the end starting, until I realized that it was a copy/paste job.

Offline Nihil-Morari

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2013, 09:45:42 AM »
Like most, I never really bothered with the B side. Listened again today, and I still don't care about those songs.

IMO the placing of the epic is what's wrong. I mean, with LP's you could either start with the A side, or with the B side, I never do that, but you could, easily. On a CD, or an Ipod, you have to get past the Epic, and the rest of the album seems dull.
I remember MP saying on the making of Systematic Chaos, that they couldn't open with all of ITPOE, it would leave the listeners exhausted after just one track.
With Floyd's Meddle, you can see the first few tracks as working up to Echoes, and that works great now. (I can imagine that people in the LP days would just only play side B, but in the CD/Ipod days it's different).

Point is: I like to listen to albums from start to finish, and after listening to the extreme epicness that is Tarkus nothing sounds good. If they worked up to it, it would've worked better.
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Offline Jaq

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2013, 10:07:02 AM »


Did anyone listen to the version of Tarkus with Steve Wilson on vocals for Jordan Rudess' solo record? I'm not gonna lie; I like Rudess' version a bit better.


As I mentioned it in my post, at least one person here has heard it.  :lol I like it a lot, plus I think it takes guts to cover ALL of a 21 minute prog classic.
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2013, 10:27:52 AM »
Like most, I never really bothered with the B side. Listened again today, and I still don't care about those songs.

IMO the placing of the epic is what's wrong. I mean, with LP's you could either start with the A side, or with the B side, I never do that, but you could, easily. On a CD, or an Ipod, you have to get past the Epic, and the rest of the album seems dull.
I remember MP saying on the making of Systematic Chaos, that they couldn't open with all of ITPOE, it would leave the listeners exhausted after just one track.
With Floyd's Meddle, you can see the first few tracks as working up to Echoes, and that works great now. (I can imagine that people in the LP days would just only play side B, but in the CD/Ipod days it's different).

Point is: I like to listen to albums from start to finish, and after listening to the extreme epicness that is Tarkus nothing sounds good. If they worked up to it, it would've worked better.

I tend to agree - opening with a side-length epic (or at least a song that makes up more than a third/half of your albm) is HARD to do while still making the rest of the music as enjoyable. However, Yes did it TWICE with "Close To The Edge" and "The Gates Of Delirium", and Rush once with "Hemispheres", and both bands still managed to pull of great Side 2's on their albums.

On the other hand, albums like Tarkus and 2112 do suffer from opening with the epic and THEN following with shorter songs. It's a bit like having your main course first, THEN the appetizer sampler afterwards. Nothing you have after the main course is just as good, especially if it's REALLY good, as is the case with epics like "Tarkus" and "2112". Genesis did it right with "Supper's Ready" on Foxtrot, and as you stated, Pink Floyd with "Echoes" on Meddle.

Anyways, I am listening to the album now, and I'm near the end of the title epic. It's as good as I remember it being! Still a benchmark for 70's prog epics, and I would be remiss if I didn't mention that I really enjoy the cover on Jordan Rudess' album The Road Home!!! Great performances on that cover!

I really like "Tarkus" for all it's parts, and it flows SO well! It's less disjointed/glued-together than other epics of the time, like "2112" and "Supper's Ready" which can often times sound a bit "here's a song, then a short break to put them together, then another song". Maybe "Tarkus" does do that, but it keeps up it's energy so well that it doesn't FEEL like that at all. I also want to give props to the "intro sound", something that many epics would do ("2112" and "Close To The Edge" being notable examples).

"Jeremy Bender" is typical for the old west style that they seem to enjoy, via Copland influences. Why do virtuoso keyboardists enjoy honky-tonk so much? Emerson here, as well as Rick Wakeman and Jordan Rudess... it must be a keyboardist thing... At least "Jeremy Bender" is short! It's more of an interlude or introduction to Side 2 for how short it is.

"Bitches Crystal" features some fast and frantic drumming with expert piano playing. It's a fast and fun tune, and certainly step up from "Jeremy Bender".

"The Only Way (Hymn)"/"Infinite Space (Conclusion)" is an interesting and very different sort of duo of pieces. LOVE the organ in it, as well as the fast-jazz style break in the middle. This kind of all-over-the-place changing is just what is so interesting about ELP, and they seem to pull it off quite expertly.

"A Time And A Place" is the hard rocker! More fast and frantic drumming while Lake screams his vocals. It's definitely different than the songs prior to it. It shows that this band isn't afraid to go even further out. As if their first album wasn't experimental enough, and that their second album opened with a side-length epic, they get even crazier. I do love the drumming on this track though!

"Are You Ready Eddy?" is a silly track...but then again, it's prog. You can't be TOO serious, right? :lol

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2013, 10:32:39 AM »


IMO the placing of the epic is what's wrong. I mean, with LP's you could either start with the A side, or with the B side, I never do that, but you could, easily. On a CD, or an Ipod, you have to get past the Epic, and the rest of the album seems dull.
I remember MP saying on the making of Systematic Chaos, that they couldn't open with all of ITPOE, it would leave the listeners exhausted after just one track.
With Floyd's Meddle, you can see the first few tracks as working up to Echoes, and that works great now. (I can imagine that people in the LP days would just only play side B, but in the CD/Ipod days it's different).

Point is: I like to listen to albums from start to finish, and after listening to the extreme epicness that is Tarkus nothing sounds good. If they worked up to it, it would've worked better.

I mostly agree.  I think that if an album has one long epic and a bunch of short songs, it works better if the long epic is last, not first.  I think the flow of the last Flower Kings album was thrown off a bit by doing it the old way (25 minute song first and then four songs in the 6-8 minute range).  It can make getting through the rest of an album seem like work after having such an exhausting epic thrown at you first.  But there is something to be said about an album kicking your ass with such awesomeness from the start.  I think the problem with Tarkus in that regard is that so many of the songs on Side 2 were ho-hum.  If all of the shorter songs were really good, it wouldn't be a big deal, but since they aren't, they come across as afterthoughts, like, "Here is our awesome epic, and, oh, we had to fill up Side 2, so here are a bunch of short songs we threw together for it."  Not saying that IS the real deal, but it can come across that way.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2013, 10:39:05 AM »
Yeah, maybe if the "regular" songs were first and we finished up with the title epic, the others wouldn't seem so much like filler.  I'm guessing that the idea was to give the title epic prominent placement by having it lead things off.

But does anyone else think it is a little weird that the 40 plus section at the end of the song that repeats what they did at the beginning is not only the same verbatim, but it is literally the same.  Like, they didn't even play it slightly different.  It is like they played it once and used it at the beginning and the end.

I think I know what you mean, but the term "40 plus section" is throwing me for a loop.  What exactly does that mean?

The ending section of "Aquatarkus" is obviously a reprise of the main theme from "Eruption", so I guess it's never bothered me that it sounds the same.  Those guys were so technical, I just figured that if you're going to play the same bit, it's gonna sound exactly the same.


Offline KevShmev

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2013, 10:40:36 AM »
I meant 40 second plus section.  My bad. :facepalm:

Offline Man-Erg

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2013, 10:45:19 AM »

The side-long epic, the benchmark of 70's progressive rock.  As the whole idea of prog was to push the boundaries, it seemed that creating a single work filling the entire side of an LP, be it a suite or a song in multiple movements, was something most if not all prog bands attempted at least once.  Yes have done it nine times so far.  Genesis only did it once, but their "Supper's Ready" was longer than any of the Yes epics.  But if we're talking superlatives, true progheads know that Emerson Lake & Palmer did it first.  Tarkus came out a year before either Close to the Edge or Foxtrot.
whoah hey, King Crimson did it a year before, it's called Lizard.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2013, 10:47:48 AM »
Okay, ELP did it first well. :biggrin:

Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2013, 10:49:57 AM »
Ah, I'd forgotten about Lizard!  I have to admit, I've never really been impressed by that album.  A lot of early Crimson feels too experimental to me, and the title epic is a bit too obviously separate bits cobbled together.  But I haven't listened to it in a while, I'm just recalling my impressions.  I should listen to it again.

I meant 40 second plus section.  My bad. :facepalm:

Got it.  I should've figured it out, but for some reason "40 plus" to me conjured a reference to age or maybe waist size, and once I got mentally derailed like that, I couldn't think of the musical term you were getting at.

Offline Man-Erg

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #66 on: January 28, 2013, 10:56:13 AM »
It's all right, not everyone is awesome enough to love Lizard.  ;D

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2013, 11:03:25 AM »


I meant 40 second plus section.  My bad. :facepalm:

Got it.  I should've figured it out, but for some reason "40 plus" to me conjured a reference to age or maybe waist size, and once I got mentally derailed like that, I couldn't think of the musical term you were getting at.

Is this when the Greg Lake fat jokes kick in?  :biggrin:

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2013, 11:11:57 AM »


He actually doesn't look as big as I remember.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2013, 11:37:35 AM »
I saw a video of some television thing he'd done a few years back, and I was amazed at how big he'd gotten, and also how much lower his voice is now.  I was thinking that he's easily a baritone now, going on bass, and eventually will go subsonic.  Only marine mammals will be able to hear him.

Then I caught the ELP 40th anniversary thing just a few weeks ago, and it was just depressing.  All the songs were in lower keys, slowed down at least a little, and neither Emerson nor Lake can really play anymore.  Emerson didn't even try to do the thing where he plays keyboards opposite of each other, or even two at once a lot of the time.  Lake didn't play much guitar, mostly letting Emerson play the songs on the keyboards.  My favorite Lake song of all, "The Sage" (from Pictures at an Exhibition) is voice and guitar, but instead, Emerson provided a nice keyboard backdrop and Lake just sang it.  Okay, it sounded great, but can Greg not even play and sing at the same time anymore?