Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 979818 times)

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SebastianPratesi

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7280 on: March 14, 2016, 07:49:31 PM »
Agreed. They still are great players, but the actual songwriting declined a lot, but that's fine, happens with most bands anyway.

I discovered the band and become a fan in 2005, so I guess I'm a new fan. Anyway, for me, their songwriting and albums increased in quality in the last 5 years. I absolutely adore MP's drum parts, though (especially "Stream Of Consciousness" and "The Dark Eternal Night") - his drumming was one of the reasons I became a fan in the first place.

That said, I understand and agree with what you are saying. The Mars Volta was my favourite band in my teens. I fell in love with Frances The Mute in 2005, and literally thought to myself:
 
'This band is probably going to release a dozen weird albums and I'm going to buy and love them all'

Well, eventually that didn't happen :P, and their albums got less and less 'weird': they stopped singing in spanish, the songs got shorter and shorter, the salsa-ish instrumentals became non-existent. Granted, they experimented with other structures/moods, and had great songs on their last albums ("Ouroborous", "Desperate Graves", "Zed and Two Naughts"). So, pretty much the same with recent DT.
(From the interviews I've read, Omar always made it clear he did whatever was on his mind, and completely disregarded formulas or repeating himself, so I guess it's understandable.)

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7281 on: March 15, 2016, 07:20:51 AM »

... (i don't think i) could say how it 'ought to be' ...


Sure you could. It's all opinion. Aaaaall of it. :-)

Except it's not really, because it's rooted in selfishness and delusion.   THEY are the artists.  It's THEIR statement.   They are just as "great" as they always were. It's not like the all of a sudden forgot how to play their instruments, or forgot how to play together.  It just doesn't resonate with YOU.  That's not really "opinion", it's just the fact of what you like and don't like.  There might be "facets" of their current choices you don't like, but it is arrogant in the extreme to say that because you - one person out of 7.3 billion people on the planet - don't like it as much as something that came before that therefore they are "[no longer] amazing". 

"Images and Words" is a top ten album for me, all time by any band.  Octavarium is close to that, as is Six Degrees....  I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

It's all subjective. They are no longer an amazing band *to me*. Loads of people have *never* found them amazing. There's no arrogance there. I don't need, expect or demand any particular level of agreement.

You, on the other hand, state that "by *any* analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work" - do you see the irony here?

People have different views. Get over it.

Easy; this isn't an idle thrown off comment; this is something that has been discussed to death on this and several other forums like this.  There is no "irony" in my "inspired" comment, because I am not talking about what I think, I am talking about what the ARTIST thinks.  I could easily swamp this thread with quotes from John and particularly Jordan about the positive feelings around this album; how it expanded from just "next album" to a double, from a double to a concept...

I think you're missing the subtle point of my post:  it's the way it's being looked at.  THEY this, THEY that.   Versus ME this, and ME that.   I won't keep harping on it, and I'm not questioning your views, just the way you say it.  THEY THEY THEY like you get to sit there and the world has to please you.  No, YOUR opinions have evolved, or not, in a way that doesn't track the bands progress.  That isn't on them, that's on you.  It's not "bad", it's not a criticism, just an observation.  I'm not questioning your VIEWS, or that you have differing views than anyone else; I'm calling you on blaming the band (someone else) for YOUR opinion.  So there's nothing (here) to "get over". 

Offline red barchetta

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7282 on: March 15, 2016, 07:24:25 AM »
Is it controversial to say that the soft songs are the best songs on TA?

Chosen
When Your Time has Come
A Life Left Behind
Act of Faythe
The Answer
Losing Faythe

are some of my favorite songs on the album and as a whole I think are better than the heavier songs.

That's the problem of TA for me.  Soft songs are good, some very good but where the band do rock, it is not interesting as they usually captivate me... but I'm still trying.
With all respect, sincerely yours

Offline red barchetta

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7283 on: March 15, 2016, 07:26:41 AM »
I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

I really like your example of Turn It On Again, but I think you're neglecting the fact that Genesis at that point in their career, were wanting to make music that people could dance to - hence Phil's decision to play over that 13/8 riff in common time.  If DT were wanting to make music that people could dance to without fucking... slipping a disc or summat then you might have a point, but I don't think they've ever cared about that.

That being said, my controversial opinion on DT is that they have gotten steadily more irrelevant and... unexciting since MP left.  Now they're just somebody that I used to know.  I still love the old records, and will respect their legacy but nothing they have done since BC&SL has interested me.

Well, there are so many ballads on TA that I think they want us to start to dance... slows.  How many guys now can take their girl with them at the concert?  Now girls like TA.  Let's wave those hands fellows.
With all respect, sincerely yours

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7284 on: March 15, 2016, 07:28:26 AM »
It's all subjective. They are no longer an amazing band *to me*. Loads of people have *never* found them amazing. There's no arrogance there. I don't need, expect or demand any particular level of agreement.

You, on the other hand, state that "by *any* analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work" - do you see the irony here?

People have different views. Get over it.

Agreed. They still are great players, but the actual songwriting declined a lot, but that's fine, happens with most bands anyway.

And i didn't found The Astonishing inspired at all.

Look, I get it; this is an odd view to have, but I'm used to it.  It's not about agreeing with your position; it's about how your position is framed.    THEIR songwriting hasn't "declined" (how do you even measure that??), YOU just aren't in a position to appreciate what they are doing. That's fine. I'm right there with you.  I haven't listened to "DT" more than a hand full of times, and not once since about a month after it came out.  I'm having a hard time even getting through the first disk of TA, to be honest.  So I'm not arguing what you're seeing, I'm just saying it's not fair or accurate to blame the band because your "exquisite tastes" haven't been met.  I'm taking responsibility for my opinions, and taking ownership.  You're passing it off on the band. 

As for the drummer thing, well, Rush has never really gone after the "dance crowd" but Peart pulls off that magic, so....

I get the "overplaying" by Portnoy, but it just seems like - for me - all I seem to notice about Mangini is the machine gun bass drum attacks and machine gun snare hits at what seems like the end of every verse and every chorus and during every instrumental break.  It just sounds so MANIC.   I went back and listened to I&W, and the two Fan Club/Xmas CDs that focus on I&W, and while Mike does overplay a bit, I'm just more receptive, I think, to that kind of overplaying.  It's a little... free-er, if that's a word.

Offline red barchetta

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7285 on: March 15, 2016, 07:29:00 AM »
I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

I really like your example of Turn It On Again, but I think you're neglecting the fact that Genesis at that point in their career, were wanting to make music that people could dance to - hence Phil's decision to play over that 13/8 riff in common time.  If DT were wanting to make music that people could dance to without fucking... slipping a disc or summat then you might have a point, but I don't think they've ever cared about that.

That being said, my controversial opinion on DT is that they have gotten steadily more irrelevant and... unexciting since MP left.  Now they're just somebody that I used to know.  I still love the old records, and will respect their legacy but nothing they have done since BC&SL has interested me.

Oh and you are so right about the band since MP left.  Right on the nail.
With all respect, sincerely yours

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7286 on: March 15, 2016, 08:17:53 AM »
To say that The Astonishing isn't inspired is just... Not correct, in my opinion. :lol

The band spent over two years putting the story together, writing the musics and lyrics, and putting together a pretty detailed website on the album. They spent loads and loads of cash on it, to the point I've heard some people argue it wasn't a sound financial decision. In interviews, they're raving about it. They're proud of it.

It seems to me like they were clearly inspired by the thing, perhaps more than any DT album before it. Fair game if you don't like it, but "I don't like it" <> "It's uninspired".
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7287 on: March 15, 2016, 08:25:55 AM »
^Exactly^
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7288 on: March 15, 2016, 08:39:32 AM »
I'm not sure you even need to listen to it to understand the album was inspired.  It's a ridiculous amount of work they put into it and to perform it all live.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7289 on: March 15, 2016, 08:42:26 AM »
People who say that TA is uninspired I guess are not in the creative business. You do not produce a two-hour rock musical with elaborate recurring motifs and other whatnot that you have not done before with just an uninspired going-by-the-nunbers mindset.

Offline terrell39

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7290 on: March 15, 2016, 08:45:50 AM »
Is it controversial to say that the soft songs are the best songs on TA?

Chosen
When Your Time has Come
A Life Left Behind
Act of Faythe
The Answer
Losing Faythe

are some of my favorite songs on the album and as a whole I think are better than the heavier songs.

I agree completely!

Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7291 on: March 15, 2016, 08:47:06 AM »
You can't complain about DT12 feeling uninspired and "safe" and ask them to do something new and then when they do something new and different also call that uninspired.

Offline red barchetta

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7292 on: March 15, 2016, 09:11:49 AM »
I was just listening to TA again, trying to like it a bit more when I had that thought.  Genesis is in my top 5 all time favorite band and the last few months I have been listening intensively to all their albums with a lot of appetite for their music.  Again some were amazing, some were not for my taste.  A few are just good albums and one of them is The lamb lies down on Broadway.  And then, pow!  Same feeling with The lamb than with TA.  The lamb is a double album and has been rated pretty high in Genesis history but for me I was never able to really like that album which is very much different to what I like about Genesis.  I think it's the same with DT last album.  The last few months, listening to The Lamb, I was kind of still trying to dig it but just a handful of songs are worth it.  I guess it's ok and that is what TA is doing to me even if I'm really trying to dig the whole concept album.
With all respect, sincerely yours

Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7293 on: March 15, 2016, 09:16:12 AM »
TA has a *lot* of problems. But lack of inspiration is not one them.
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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7294 on: March 15, 2016, 12:32:29 PM »
TA has a *lot* of problems. But lack of inspiration is not one them.

Agreed.

subpar (in one's own opinion anyways) =/= uninspired

You may not have liked it, sure, but to assume they weren't spurred on by some creative force and desire to truly make something they wanted to make is really silly.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7295 on: March 15, 2016, 01:18:46 PM »
Sometimes one's taste change and while we still follow bands we loved growing up or followed for a long time, we've moved on to other styles of music.  Some like Rumbo, always search for the next style of music that challenges him.  I always search for new music.  Some I gravitate to more than other. 

I still follow the bands I love through the years.  Rumbo, that sound like a fair assessment to you?
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7296 on: March 15, 2016, 01:22:06 PM »
Following a band is like a love affair. You're in love so you accept everything, the bad days and the good days. You have fights but you don't divorce. That's why you say this or that song sucks but you don't throw away your CDs and never listen to them again.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7297 on: March 15, 2016, 01:28:48 PM »
Following a band is like a love affair. You're in love so you accept everything, the bad days and the good days. You have fights but you don't divorce. That's why you say this or that song sucks but you don't throw away your CDs and never listen to them again.

Pretty much. I didn't like that open marriage phase of my relationship with Dream Theater when they released Falling Into Infinity, but we fought through it and are better than ever.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 01:42:53 PM by Prog Snob »

Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7298 on: March 15, 2016, 01:30:41 PM »
Sometimes one's taste change and while we still follow bands we loved growing up or followed for a long time, we've moved on to other styles of music.  Some like Rumbo, always search for the next style of music that challenges him.  I always search for new music.  Some I gravitate to more than other. 

I still follow the bands I love through the years.  Rumbo, that sound like a fair assessment to you?

I think so, yeah. I don't like it when artists just tread water. That's why I appreciate what DT were trying to do with TA (despite the fact that I find the execution lacking). Sometimes an artist loses me when they go into a direction I personally don't like, but overall it makes me at least come back for the next album to see whether I like that one. Had DT just done another album in the vein of ADTOE and DT12, I might not even have checked the one after that.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7299 on: March 15, 2016, 05:12:46 PM »
controversial opinion: it's been a month or so since I listened to TA and I guess I should listen to it again soon but dedicating over 2 hours to an album when I have so much else I want to do feels like a total waste of time

basically: holy hell this album should've been half as long as it is

Offline PixelDream

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7300 on: March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM »
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7301 on: March 15, 2016, 07:31:16 PM »
Your integrity knows no bounds.
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Offline red barchetta

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7302 on: March 15, 2016, 07:37:16 PM »
controversial opinion: it's been a month or so since I listened to TA and I guess I should listen to it again soon but dedicating over 2 hours to an album when I have so much else I want to do feels like a total waste of time

basically: holy hell this album should've been half as long as it is

It would have been much better for sure. They were certainly inspired for it. You can't come up with a well detailed story and music for 2 hours + without a lot of ideas. I think there is just too much slack In the process and too much repetitive parts of music that finally bores.
With all respect, sincerely yours

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7303 on: March 15, 2016, 08:00:37 PM »
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.

One strategy is to be ashamed of the cheesy bits... Another is to laugh at them and embrace your inner dork. :lol
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7304 on: March 15, 2016, 08:33:38 PM »
I'm not sure non-DT fans would hear their music and notice the lyrics much anyway.  I would think the (what many would see as over)playing and JLB's voice would be the things most notice at first, good or bad.

Offline Zook

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7305 on: March 16, 2016, 02:32:11 AM »
One of my favorite moments as a DT fan is sitting at a red light after work and seeing a man diagonal from me look back with a frown as the crazy section at the end of the Metropolis instrumental section was on.

That's what people notice. NOISE NOISE NOISE

Offline cramx3

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7306 on: March 16, 2016, 07:03:29 AM »
One of my favorite moments as a DT fan is sitting at a red light after work and seeing a man diagonal from me look back with a frown as the crazy section at the end of the Metropolis instrumental section was on.

That's what people notice. NOISE NOISE NOISE

 :lol

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7307 on: March 16, 2016, 08:10:36 AM »
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.
Opinions and all, but I just don't understand this at all.
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Offline Dream Team

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7308 on: March 16, 2016, 11:36:39 AM »
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.
Opinions and all, but I just don't understand this at all.

Quite. Did he have trouble blasting "dark master" also? If not, statement is invalid.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7309 on: March 16, 2016, 11:39:10 AM »
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.
Opinions and all, but I just don't understand this at all.

I never equated DT to say like, The Bay City Rollers or NKOTB if you were a closet fan. :lol
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7310 on: March 16, 2016, 11:41:48 AM »
I actually had Bay City Roller trading cards when I was a kid.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7311 on: March 16, 2016, 11:43:53 AM »
I actually had Bay City Roller trading cards when I was a kid.

SHHHHHH!!!!!!   


But did you have the Tartan slacks? :lol
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7312 on: March 16, 2016, 12:33:08 PM »
Toughskins! Husky!  :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7313 on: March 16, 2016, 12:40:14 PM »
Toughskins! Husky!  :lol

 :lol  The same! :lol

I think the knee pads on those will outlive us.
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Offline red barchetta

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7314 on: March 16, 2016, 10:02:37 PM »
I'm not sure non-DT fans would hear their music and notice the lyrics much anyway.  I would think the (what many would see as over)playing and JLB's voice would be the things most notice at first, good or bad.

Non DT fans simply don't listen to their music or what's the goal of it?
With all respect, sincerely yours