Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[MirrorMask]

I’ve always been curious about the food poisoning incident. How much effect did it have? I feel as if some people about it as if it hadnt happened he’d be a completely different singer.

Well, for the effect, listen to Live at the Marquee and then Once in a LIVEtime. That's the effect it had. Further complicated by him needing 1 year of rest to recover, and the band not being able to affor such a prolonged hiatus.

He was like an athlete sustaining a serious injury in his prime, and then speeds up his recovery because he can't miss the matches. We'll never know for sure how it would have gone, but for sure James was in his prime and I believe he could have lasted at least until Scenes or even Six Degrees to wail insanely the way he did on Live at the Marquee before age would eventually catch up.

And weird how Prof Peart gave up on James around Octavarium - that was when he finally was back into his full shape IMO.

[ReaperKK]

Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t live at the marquee have a ton of vocal overdubs?

[Zook]

Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t live at the marquee have a ton of vocal overdubs?

He still sang those songs though.

[SeRoX]

Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t live at the marquee have a ton of vocal overdubs?

Well, yes but in that era there are better performance of him than Live@Marquee. Like this: https://youtu.be/x2_wJP3VCBw

[ReaperKK]

Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t live at the marquee have a ton of vocal overdubs?

He still sang those songs though.

Sang them where? In the studio?

[KevShmev]

Controversial opinions - I dunno if I really have any. I don't think MP should ever have been allowed near a mic in the studio - maybe some find that controversial.

I don't find it controversial; I find it mostly on the money (although the harmonies he and JP do in Fatal Tragedy are good). 

  I think it's insane that they covered a number of full albums at 2nd night shows, but not one of those albums was a Rush album. 

I think it's likely that a Rush album would have been covered at some point, had Portnoy not left the band, although they covered plenty of Rush in various shows over the years.

[MirrorMask]

Wasn't Moving Pictures the 5th album that would have been played? Portnoy always said he already had 5 albums in mind but he got around to play only 4 (Master, 666, Dark Side, Made in Japan)

Setlist Scotty knows for sure.

[gzarruk]

Controversial opinions - I dunno if I really have any. I don't think MP should ever have been allowed near a mic in the studio - maybe some find that controversial.

I don't find it controversial; I find it mostly on the money (although the harmonies he and JP do in Fatal Tragedy are good). 

The thing with his vocals in DT is that he was great with harmonies, like Fatal Tragedy, but with the years he started to sing more and more leads, and that just never worked well (ROOOOAAAAAAARRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH)

[ozzy554]

Controversial opinions - I dunno if I really have any. I don't think MP should ever have been allowed near a mic in the studio - maybe some find that controversial.

I don't find it controversial; I find it mostly on the money (although the harmonies he and JP do in Fatal Tragedy are good). 

The thing with his vocals in DT is that he was great with harmonies, like Fatal Tragedy, but with the years he started to sing more and more leads, and that just never worked well (ROOOOAAAAAAARRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH)

Yeah him singing more and more leads is one of the reasons why I'm glad he left the band. It's what keeps me from listening to A Nightmare to Remember more often. It's just so cringey to me

[DTA]

Controversial opinion - I think the AA Suite is incredibly overrated and all the songs that make it up are among the weakest on each respective album. The Glass Prison, which everyone seems to go nuts for, is entirely too repetitive/padded and one-sided to remain interesting for its 14 minute duration. This Dying Soul is probably the best of the bunch, but the last minute or so of noodling completely ruins it IMO. The Root Of All Evil is okay, but again, feels a bit too one-sided and repetitive, but at least it's only 8 minutes instead of 12-14. Repentance is actually pretty cool, but the ending is just painfully long. The Shattered Fortress is a good ending to the suite, but again, just feels like it goes on forever. The intro especially. I'll never understand why these songs get so much love from DT fans.

[KevShmev]

Controversial opinion - I think the AA Suite is incredibly overrated and all the songs that make it up are among the weakest on each respective album. The Glass Prison, which everyone seems to go nuts for, is entirely too repetitive/padded and one-sided to remain interesting for its 14 minute duration. This Dying Soul is probably the best of the bunch, but the last minute or so of noodling completely ruins it IMO. The Root Of All Evil is okay, but again, feels a bit too one-sided and repetitive, but at least it's only 8 minutes instead of 12-14. Repentance is actually pretty cool, but the ending is just painfully long. The Shattered Fortress is a good ending to the suite, but again, just feels like it goes on forever. The intro especially. I'll never understand why these songs get so much love from DT fans.

Agreed. The Glass Prison (the only one of the five that would make my top 50) is great, while the other four songs all range from solid to good for me. 

Had the Shattered Fortress tour came here to STL, I would have skipped it. Zero interest in hearing that suite played in full.

[Evai]

Controversial opinion - I think the AA Suite is incredibly overrated and all the songs that make it up are among the weakest on each respective album. The Glass Prison, which everyone seems to go nuts for, is entirely too repetitive/padded and one-sided to remain interesting for its 14 minute duration. This Dying Soul is probably the best of the bunch, but the last minute or so of noodling completely ruins it IMO. The Root Of All Evil is okay, but again, feels a bit too one-sided and repetitive, but at least it's only 8 minutes instead of 12-14. Repentance is actually pretty cool, but the ending is just painfully long. The Shattered Fortress is a good ending to the suite, but again, just feels like it goes on forever. The intro especially. I'll never understand why these songs get so much love from DT fans.

What threw me off with Shattered Fortress was the ending. It sounds like JLB was gonna do something akin to the F# from Learning To Live, but decided his voice wasn't up to it that day

[TAC]

I love This Dying Soul. But The Glass Prison, which I really liked at first, has not aged well.

[Lethean]

Controversial opinions - I dunno if I really have any. I don't think MP should ever have been allowed near a mic in the studio - maybe some find that controversial.

I don't find it controversial; I find it mostly on the money (although the harmonies he and JP do in Fatal Tragedy are good). 

The thing with his vocals in DT is that he was great with harmonies, like Fatal Tragedy, but with the years he started to sing more and more leads, and that just never worked well (ROOOOAAAAAAARRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH)

Yeah him singing more and more leads is one of the reasons why I'm glad he left the band. It's what keeps me from listening to A Nightmare to Remember more often. It's just so cringey to me

I didn't like either the harmonies or the leads. I don't think his voice blended well with JL, whereas JP's did a bit more. Wouldn't have minded him doing harmonies live if they kept them turned way down, but I would have preferred that everything on the albums be handled by JL.

[Lethean]

Re: the 12 steps - I like it. I don't think it's the best thing ever, but I like all the songs, did see the Shattered Fortress, and would have liked to have seen DT do it. I especially like The Glass Prison and The Root of All Evil, think This Dying Soul and Repentance are very good, and think The Shattered Fortress wraps it all up really well. When I listen to TSF alone, I almost always find myself singing "I am responsible..." at the end.

[RodrigoAltaf]

My controversial opinion is that the Shattered Fortress shows captured the vibe and energy of the mid 2000's DT, much more so than the current DT concerts. I saw DT with Mangini 6 times already, and those were great shows, but nowhere near as impactful as the ones with MP. I'll continue to support them whenever I can, and will see them live if I like the album they're promoting, but for me, the magical element has been lost. I know, I know, "get over it, move forward"...but it's just not the same, sorry...

[TAC]

When I listen to TSF alone, I almost always find myself singing "I am responsible..." at the end.

That's because it's the only decent and likely original part of the song.

[Lethean]

When I listen to TSF alone, I almost always find myself singing "I am responsible..." at the end.

That's because it's the only decent and likely original part of the song.

Nah, I like the song. If people were running around calling it one of their best, maybe I'd say it was overrated, but I don't know. I think it closes out the suite well and while it's the least original of the 5 songs, I'm OK with that.

[The Walrus]

Scarred and Voices are doubleplus ungood.
I'm not actually a fan of DT's instrumentals, except for Hell's Kitchen.
The FII demos aren't as good as the final product.
Prophets of War is good. So is Ministry of Lost Souls. Forsaken is not.
Afterlife is the only good song on WDADU.
JP's religion-inspired lyrics are my least favorite thing about post-MP DT.

[Lethean]

My controversial opinion is that the Shattered Fortress shows captured the vibe and energy of the mid 2000's DT, much more so than the current DT concerts. I saw DT with Mangini 6 times already, and those were great shows, but nowhere near as impactful as the ones with MP. I'll continue to support them whenever I can, and will see them live if I like the album they're promoting, but for me, the magical element has been lost. I know, I know, "get over it, move forward"...but it's just not the same, sorry...

My experience was almost the opposite. It was indeed a great show, and there was more energy from the crowd, which was general admission and standing, than the seated Astonishing crowds.  (Not more than the standing crowds on the current tour though.)  But it just wasn't DT. I was perfectly happy with Haken and really have only one complaint about an otherwise great show. But I was struggling to explain my overall feelings to a friend who was also there, and he finally chimed in with, "you feel like you just saw the world's best DT cover band?" And that was it exactly. I don't even mean it in a bad way - they did a tremendous job. But there were times when you just really missed <insert DT member here> throughout the show.

A few people commented on how all 3 guitar players just stood there the whole night and had less energy than JP ever did.  No problem with that on my end - they were trying to get it right. But I will agree with them that the band as a whole isn't more energetic than DT, and I think I'd kinda less, MP aside.

Also, MP managed to deflate the whole room for a while by singing Repentance. I'm sure there were plenty in the audience who thought it was fine, but there were also a lot who felt he should have just let Ross do it. A lot of people seemed to feel very uncomfortable.

[TAC]

Scarred and Voices are doubleplus ungood.

They are both essential DT.

I'm not actually a fan of DT's instrumentals, except for Hell's Kitchen.

Hell's Kitchen is actually my least favorite DT Instrumental.

The FII demos aren't as good as the final product.

Neither are really that great. FII is a three song album for me (Trial Of Tears, Lines, Peruvian Skies). (And Raise The Knife). That said, the finished Lines is definitely better than the Demo Lines.

Prophets of War is good. So is Ministry of Lost Souls. Forsaken is not.

I like all three.

Afterlife is the only good song on WDADU.

Every song s good, except for Status Seeker.




 

[The Walrus]

Ugh, Scarred and Voices just go on way too long, and I think James is way too over the top with his vocals. It makes me cringe especially in Voices. One of the few times I wish he would've just reeled it in a bit.

[Evai]

Also, MP managed to deflate the whole room for a while by singing Repentance. I'm sure there were plenty in the audience who thought it was fine, but there were also a lot who felt he should have just let Ross do it. A lot of people seemed to feel very uncomfortable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajJkgNOslUM

Didn't think that would be the case, but yeah... Seems like an awkward karaoke. much better when he's doing drums and vocals simultaneously

[Madman Shepherd]

Also, MP managed to deflate the whole room for a while by singing Repentance. I'm sure there were plenty in the audience who thought it was fine, but there were also a lot who felt he should have just let Ross do it. A lot of people seemed to feel very uncomfortable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajJkgNOslUM

Didn't think that would be the case, but yeah... Seems like an awkward karaoke. much better when he's doing drums and vocals simultaneously

I would rather he do neither and just let Ross sing. 

And I get that he isn't a frontman and him singing the song is a special sort of thing but man, that stage presence.  He's gotta figure out what he's doing.  That awkward shuffling back and forth, random brief air drumming, air guitar, sitting on the drum riser...it was actually kind of uncomfortable to watch...and hear. 

[Ninjabait]

I'm going to second a lot of what's been said about the Twelve Step Song Cycle. The cycle as a whole doesn't really work since it's pretty much 60 minutes of non-stop in-your face metal with the only reprieve being Repentance. The songs tend to work much better when they stand on their own (and The Root of All Evil works even better in the context of Octavarium). The Glass Prison is okay overall, but it desperately needs to take a cue from Opeth and shove a quiet middle section in there. This Dying Soul and The Root of All Evil are the strongest songs, and Repentance is literally my least favorite DT song. The Breaking the Fourth Wall version of The Shattered Fortress is so much better than the studio version, as the solos flow a lot better (that JR keyboard trade off is soooo good) and the cheesy bits feel less cheesy somehow.

And I've never really been a fan of MP's vocals, growled or otherwise. JP's voice has a nice natural timbre to it (like on that one demo version of Withered), but I can tell that it's unrefined and he could be fairly good with some lessons or something.

[Evai]

JP's voice is nowhere near as good as MPs. The difference is that JP has more self awareness so you don't hear it that often. Meanwhile, MP realizes he can hit the F# that James hits, so he shoehorns it into The Razors Edge and thinks he's a god

[PetFish]

What threw me off with Shattered Fortress was the ending. It sounds like JLB was gonna do something akin to the F# from Learning To Live, but decided his voice wasn't up to it that day

You make it sound as if it's somehow JL's fault that he didn't go up there or something.  Like there was one day and one chance to do this vocal moment.  Come on.

Since this is an MP-driven song you know he's definitely calling the shots on it and that includes how JL does his vocal so if you want to point fingers at anyone for not ball-busting this last vocal point them at MP.  If anything, JL *could* have done it in-studio and then bailed on it live and then you know there'd be crying about it from the fans.

[The Walrus]

It is a disappointing, anticlimactic cadence to end on, though. I also expected a high note to close it out, but it just... fizzled. And that's what I'll remember it as. A big, wet fizzle.

Fucking killer solo from Petrucci in TSF, though. Wow.

[KevShmev]

Also, MP managed to deflate the whole room for a while by singing Repentance. I'm sure there were plenty in the audience who thought it was fine, but there were also a lot who felt he should have just let Ross do it. A lot of people seemed to feel very uncomfortable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajJkgNOslUM

Didn't think that would be the case, but yeah... Seems like an awkward karaoke. much better when he's doing drums and vocals simultaneously

I would rather he do neither and just let Ross sing. 

And I get that he isn't a frontman and him singing the song is a special sort of thing but man, that stage presence.  He's gotta figure out what he's doing.  That awkward shuffling back and forth, random brief air drumming, air guitar, sitting on the drum riser...it was actually kind of uncomfortable to watch...and hear.

But. but, some Portnoy diehards having been saying for years that he was always DT's true frontman.  Maybe seeing that footage will make some realize that there is more to being a legit frontman than standing up at your drum set and swinging one arm, with drum stick in hand, to get the crowd going.

It is a disappointing, anticlimactic cadence to end on, though. I also expected a high note to close it out, but it just... fizzled. And that's what I'll remember it as. A big, wet fizzle.

Fucking killer solo from Petrucci in TSF, though. Wow.

Agreed. On it own, The Shattered Fortress is a good song, but as the finale to an hour-long suite, it is pretty underwhelming.  The climatic ending just isn't there.

[TAC]

And to build on what Petfish said, there is nothing on SC or BC&SL that shows off JLB's range. The vocal producer is guilty of stifling one of DT strongest assets. If anything, the BC&SL Cover Album proves that in the studio, James can pull off anything. He was severely underutilized on those last two MP albums. Coincidence?

That said, what he did sing was fucking flawless.

[The Walrus]

One of my favorite JLB moments on either SC or BC&SL is this partial verse in In The Presence Of Enemies Part 2:

I cannot see his face
But I could feel his spite
A presence from the dead
Abandoned by the light
This shadow will consume him
from within

Absolutely love how his voice sounds here.

[TAC]

 

Agreed!

[Madman Shepherd]

Also, MP managed to deflate the whole room for a while by singing Repentance. I'm sure there were plenty in the audience who thought it was fine, but there were also a lot who felt he should have just let Ross do it. A lot of people seemed to feel very uncomfortable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajJkgNOslUM

Didn't think that would be the case, but yeah... Seems like an awkward karaoke. much better when he's doing drums and vocals simultaneously

I would rather he do neither and just let Ross sing. 

And I get that he isn't a frontman and him singing the song is a special sort of thing but man, that stage presence.  He's gotta figure out what he's doing.  That awkward shuffling back and forth, random brief air drumming, air guitar, sitting on the drum riser...it was actually kind of uncomfortable to watch...and hear.

But. but, some Portnoy diehards having been saying for years that he was always DT's true frontman.  Maybe seeing that footage will make some realize that there is more to being a legit frontman than standing up at your drum set and swinging one arm, with drum stick in hand, to get the crowd going.

 

It's a damn good thing his drumset kept him relatively stationary otherwise he would shuffle back and forth *and* swing his arm with drumstick in hand. There would be no question who the true frontman is then!

[JoeMLennon]

This thread is too, long so I gotta think this has been covered but here is some controversy.  DT won't be the same until Portnoy comes back which may not happen for quite a while.  The band lost some major mojo without his input into the songwriting process.  He did it to himself and they were left with no choice once he basically tried to shut the band down, so it is in my opinion mostly his doing which could have all been avoided.  He put them in a position where they had to move on without him and now he seems to have been regretting it ever since.  I am sure they regret it too, but it wasn't their doing.  I hope they prove me wrong and put out some unbelievable album in 2019, but I just can't get into the albums post portnoy as much as the earlier ones.  I am guessing the songwriting dynamic is just much different now than compared to when MP was in the band.

[Madman Shepherd]

This thread is too, long so I gotta think this has been covered but here is some controversy.  DT won't be the same until Portnoy comes back which may not happen for quite a while.  The band lost some major mojo without his input into the songwriting process.  He did it to himself and they were left with no choice once he basically tried to shut the band down, so it is in my opinion mostly his doing which could have all been avoided.  He put them in a position where they had to move on without him and now he seems to have been regretting it ever since.  I am sure they regret it too, but it wasn't their doing. 

I doubt they regret it at all.