Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[nikatapi]

Yeah Petrucci i think overuses the chorus in the last few years, especially in the distorted rhythm tones. If you listen to both LALP and BTFW, some tight riffs (TEI, TSF) sound a little sloppy and muddy (at least to my ears) and this is definitely due to the overwhelming chorus applied to the tone.

[JiM-Xtreme]

Whilst we're on the subject, I can't stand JM's tone at the moment either. I remember when seeing them live about a month ago, it came to the Metropolis bass solo and there were just too many effects going on to the point where the notes he was playing were virtually impossible to distinguish. It just doesn't sound like a bass anymore.

It makes me really miss his tone circa Train of Thought/LaB. Now THAT was a monster bass tone.

[ChuckSteak]

It's surprising that you can hear Myung's bass at all. I can't. Whether it is on studio or live.

[bosk1]

Whilst we're on the subject, I can't stand JM's tone at the moment either. I remember when seeing them live about a month ago, it came to the Metropolis bass solo and there were just too many effects going on to the point where the notes he was playing were virtually impossible to distinguish. It just doesn't sound like a bass anymore.

It makes me really miss his tone circa Train of Thought/LaB. Now THAT was a monster bass tone.

Agreed.  I have never had a problem with JP's guitar tone.  But the bass tone has gone a direction that I really do not care for.

It's surprising that you can hear Myung's bass at all. I can't. Whether it is on studio or live.

I would suggest better speakers, but given that I can hear his playing even on a bad system, I'm honestly not sure what your issue is.

[BlobVanDam]

I only listen to DT on decent equipment, but I've also never had a problem hearing JM's playing, the odd song aside, like BMUBMD. There are certainly better and worse mixes, but I can always make out his lines. I think some of the problem may be that it's more difficult for people to distinguish his playing when he's doubling JP?

[mikeyd23]

I only listen to DT on decent equipment, but I've also never had a problem hearing JM's playing, the odd song aside, like BMUBMD. There are certainly better and worse mixes, but I can always make out his lines. I think some of the problem may be that it's more difficult for people to distinguish his playing when he's doubling JP?

I think so, a lot of people probably hear the bass but since it's doubling the guitar line, it might not jump out at them. In reality, if you all of a sudden muted the bass track, you'd realize how much of an impact it typically has on a mix.

[bosk1]

Yeah, I mean there are always cases of him falling into the background in a particular song or particular part of the song, either because he is doubling JP or because the bass is supposed to be a subtle part of the background.  But that's generally true of the vast majority of bass players in the vast majority of songs.  Typically, unless the bass is playing a flourish and meant to be noticed, or is part of a song with a particularly driving rhythm, or it is a quiet part of a song, you often have to listen for the bass to notice it.  As a rule, that's true of Myung as well.  There are definitely songs where his playing stands out, as it should.  But there are plenty others where his playing is more subtle and doesn't stand out unless you listen for it.  Nothing wrong with that.

[mikeyd23]

Yeah, I mean there are always cases of him falling into the background in a particular song or particular part of the song, either because he is doubling JP or because the bass is supposed to be a subtle part of the background.  But that's generally true of the vast majority of bass players in the vast majority of songs.  Typically, unless the bass is playing a flourish and meant to be noticed, or is part of a song with a particularly driving rhythm, or it is a quiet part of a song, you often have to listen for the bass to notice it.  As a rule, that's true of Myung as well.  There are definitely songs where his playing stands out, as it should.  But there are plenty others where his playing is more subtle and doesn't stand out unless you listen for it.  Nothing wrong with that.

I agree overall, I do think there has been more doubling to whatever JP is playing in recent years on recent albums, so I'd like to see less of that personally. Then again, maybe that's not true and I'm off base.

[JiM-Xtreme]

Yeah, I mean there are always cases of him falling into the background in a particular song or particular part of the song, either because he is doubling JP or because the bass is supposed to be a subtle part of the background.  But that's generally true of the vast majority of bass players in the vast majority of songs.  Typically, unless the bass is playing a flourish and meant to be noticed, or is part of a song with a particularly driving rhythm, or it is a quiet part of a song, you often have to listen for the bass to notice it.  As a rule, that's true of Myung as well.  There are definitely songs where his playing stands out, as it should.  But there are plenty others where his playing is more subtle and doesn't stand out unless you listen for it.  Nothing wrong with that.

I agree overall, I do think there has been more doubling to whatever JP is playing in recent years on recent albums, so I'd like to see less of that personally. Then again, maybe that's not true and I'm off base.

That's been the case for pretty much every album since Train of Thought. On DT12 the bass kind of came to the forefront once again, not just in terms of the overall mix but the actual lines he was playing as well. It just stood out a lot more on that album, which I liked, but then it fell into the background once again with TA.

Which, you could argue, is exactly what the bass is supposed to do - supporting the overall mix without always being overtly noticeable. It's just not my particular taste, as I tend to listen to other bands where the bass is more at the forefront and has it's own distinct place both in mix and arrangement, such as Living Colour, Primus and the RHCP. But in terms of this band and this style of music, it serves its purpose. I guess it's a combination of JM's introverted personality, the fact that JP and JR write the majority of the music and that it's mostly (let's face it) guitar-driven music anyway that the bass mostly plays a supporting role.

[PowerSlave]

Maybe not on the albums, but I've always struggled to hear him in a live setting.

One of those times was when I seen them on tour with Fates Warning and Queensryche. The difference in the mixes was very noticeable. Joey Vera and Eddie Jackson were very much a part of their band's sound, where as JM wasn't.

[SeRoX]

Seeing James struggles bit at hitting high notes but sounds awesome singing songs like As I Am and The Dark Eternal Night, DT should consider making ToT and Awake-ish album again.

[TAC]

Wasn't DT12 in that vain?

[Evai]

The vocal mixing on Awake wasn't the best, the quiet parts are too quiet to understand, and the loud parts are ear piercing. The same songs on Breaking The Fourth Wall were better, since it's all even and you could actually hear the words when James is in his lower register

[Ninjabait]

Alright, here goes:

-Awake is a structural mess. Sections and themes often seem carelessly glued together without any regard for creating a smooth transition. The "Space Dye Vest" foreshadowing in "The Mirror" just seems to be thrown in without any reason or explanation whatsoever. Every time I hear it I just think "Why is this here? 'The Mirror' and 'Space Dye Vest' are separated by like four songs and there's no other connection between the two. It just feels unnecessary." "Scarred" is basically a collage of ideas that are really good on their own, but do not gel together whatsoever. It's like an accidental picaresque novel. And don't get me started on "Lie" and "Voices". The songs that tend to work the most for me are the "poppier" songs like "6:00", "Lifting Shadows", "Innocence Faded", and "Space-Dye Vest".
-Kevin Moore's keyboard parts are usually super boring to me. "Wait for Sleep" and "Space-Dye Vest" are the only two that really stand out for me.
-Amusingly, despite being of their shortest albums, DT12 probably has the most "fat" on it of any album. "Surrender to Reason" and "Enigma Machine" could easily be 5min songs. "The Enemy Inside" gets a little chubby around the middle too. Also, "False Awakening Suite" is one of the best songs off the album.
-The Symphonic Theater of Dreams version of "Ministry of Lost Souls" works so much better than the original version. That out of nowhere heavy middle section fits very nicely in the song when it's played by an orchestra.
-"A Mind Beside Itself", "The Twelve Step Suite", and "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" aren't suites, but song cycles. Suites are collections of thematically related instrumental pieces (usually based in dance music, but not always) that are often played together. Song cycles are collections of 2 or more songs (usually thematically related in both lyrics and music) that can be played separately or all together, with each song being completely whole in and of itself. So, really, the only suite that they've written is...wait for it, "False Awakening Suite". Splitting hairs, but the abuse of the term "suite" in prog is a pet peeve of mine (alongside random quotations of classical music with much worse arrangements, which DT doesn't do too often thankfully).
-Speaking of TTSS, the transition from that full band unison to the synth solo in "The Root of All Evil" is magical.
-The Octavarium album as a whole is wonderfully well-written and there's obviously a lot of thought that went into writing it. It gets much more flak than it deserves imo. The way they weave that main "Octavarium" theme throughout the other songs on the album is a thing of beauty.
-The coda to "In the Name of God" goes on for too long.
-"Raw Dog" and "Prophets of War" are okay. Not amazing, but they're pretty decent in their own right.
-"Sacrificed Sons" is easily one of their best songs. Fight me.
-The Astonishing is one of the best pieces of music written in the last 70 years. Fight me x2.
-I like James LaBrie's singing most of the time. Fight me x3.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'll fight with you on the last 4 thoughts. Especially The Astonishing, such beautiful songs.

[MirrorMask]

-Awake is a structural mess. Sections and themes often seem carelessly glued together without any regard for creating a smooth transition. The "Space Dye Vest" foreshadowing in "The Mirror" just seems to be thrown in without any reason or explanation whatsoever. Every time I hear it I just think "Why is this here? 'The Mirror' and 'Space Dye Vest' are separated by like four songs and there's no other connection between the two. It just feels unnecessary." "Scarred" is basically a collage of ideas that are really good on their own, but do not gel together whatsoever. It's like an accidental picaresque novel. And don't get me started on "Lie" and "Voices".

I disagree with everything about this.

 

But really, call it me accepting the album when I had became a fan many years ago, but I'd consider the latter albums of their discography filled with bad transitions between songs sections, while everything on Awake works. Sure, thematically it might not have much sense but damn if it's powerful when the Space Dye Vest part comes in. And I wish they'd write epic songs like Voices and Scarred again.

[Evai]

I'm pretty sure most people here like Labries voice most of the time, since 'most of the time' is when we are listening to the albums or maybe official live releases. Watching terrible live videos comprises 1-2% of the time  Also I'll agree with you on The Astonishing.

[ReaperKK]

The older I get, the less I care for Awake. It's not that great, or even good.

DT I think really hit their stride at SFAM and peaked at Systematic Chaos.

[Ninjabait]

I'll fight with you on the last 4 thoughts. Especially The Astonishing, such beautiful songs.

Don't know why this was the first thing to pop into my mind when I read that, but it was and there's no going back now.

I'm pretty sure most people here like Labries voice most of the time, since 'most of the time' is when we are listening to the albums or maybe official live releases. Watching terrible live videos comprises 1-2% of the time  Also I'll agree with you on The Astonishing.

Well, I've seen a lot of comments about LaBrie being the "weak link" of the band aroundabouts the web and complaints about him, so I assumed it was an unpopular opinion.

I disagree with everything about this.

 

But really, call it me accepting the album when I had became a fan many years ago, but I'd consider the latter albums of their discography filled with bad transitions between songs sections, while everything on Awake works. Sure, thematically it might not have much sense but damn if it's powerful when the Space Dye Vest part comes in. And I wish they'd write epic songs like Voices and Scarred again.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. For me, a lot of cooler moments of the album are weakened by the fact that they feel unprepared and sudden. The SDV "preprise" in The Mirror would've probably worked better if it didn't seem so out of place. idk, structure in music is super important to me, so things that feel structurally "off" to me really bother me.

And yeah, I would agree that some of the more recent albums have some pretty clunky transitions. DT12 and SC are probably the worst offenders (with some exceptions, like TBP, ITPoE, IT, FAS, etc.), while ADToE and especially The Astonishing are more structurally sound imo. BC&SL is hit-or-miss, mainly because of all the padding.

[JayOctavarium]

Ninjabait,

you're breaking my heart

[Ninjabait]

Ninjabait,

you're breaking my heart

Sorry, I have a bad habit of building people up and then breaking them down.

[JayOctavarium]

I crash and burn.

I never learn.

[Ninjabait]

You're my guilty addic-

...

Hang on, no. Not going there.

[Evai]

-The growling section in Nightmare to Remember is the best part, I get hyped up every time. Would be amazing to see live.

-Every song on TA is great, except for Our New World. It's very repetitive, and was a bad choice for a single, since it starts with the line 'Like your father once said'. Doesn't work outside the context of the story.

-Lyrics of Metropolis and Under A Glass Moon are plain nonsense because JP was too afraid to express himself.

-A Change Of Seasons is a bit pitchy vocal-wise, needs a rerelease with some pitch correction.

-Dark Eternal Night from Chaos In Motion is better than the album version.

- Spirit Carries On should not be removed from the setlist ever. If someone is gonna see DT live for the first time, they need to hear it.

[TheCountOfNYC]

-Spirit Carries On should not be removed from the setlist ever. If someone is gonna see DT live for the first time, they need to hear it.

Agreed. It’s one of my favorite songs by them yet I’ve seen them three times and I haven’t heard it live yet.

[MirrorMask]

-Lyrics of Metropolis and Under A Glass Moon are plain nonsense because JP was too afraid to express himself.

Yes, but they're quite nice so who cares 

[KevShmev]

-Spirit Carries On should not be removed from the setlist ever. If someone is gonna see DT live for the first time, they need to hear it.

Agreed. It’s one of my favorite songs by them yet I’ve seen them three times and I haven’t heard it live yet.

I agree, regarding The Spirit Carries On.  Crowds always go wild for it, but hey, they should stop playing it because a tinny tiny portion of diehards are tired of it, right? 

[ProfessorPeart]

Don't know that any of this is controversial, but.....

James has always been the weak link, in my opinion. Awake was the first album I bought (FII was not out yet) and I distinctly remember my first thought being, man - these guys are great, I just wish the singer was better. With that said, James has always been fine in studio. I have never had an issue with his studio performances.

Now, live, yikes. Once In a Livetime should never have been released upon the public. It is cringe-worthy and bad. I was having issues with James' live performances for awhile but just kept buying tickets. It was on the Octavarium tour when I finally had enough. I made the decision during that show to never see them live again. The best way I could describe his vocals is a man yelling loudly at someone across a busy 4 lane road. I think Budokan is the last live thing I bought from them.

I did see them when they opened for Maiden a few years back. He was fine, but they also stuck to the harder metal fare that did not test his range in any way. Like someone else said, he needs to stick to that sort of material at this point. He cannot handle the high stuff.

Their material since the 'event' has been very uneven. 2 terrible albums and 1 pretty good one. I continue to buy them and support the band in that way. Just hoping for something better.

James' solo albums have been far better than the last several DT albums. There's something I thought I'd never say.

[Evai]

I try to soften the blow of the negative stuff by adding nice stuff too 

[ReaperKK]

I’ve always been curious about the food poisoning incident. How much effect did it have? I feel as if some people about it as if it hadnt happened he’d be a completely different singer.

[TAC]

James has always been the weak link, in my opinion. 

I think that's always been the case, but having been a fan since the I&W days, I felt that even then. And I consider I&W a Top 3 Vocal for me. I just think ANY singer would be the weak link in this band.

Now, live, yikes. Once In a Livetime should never have been released upon the public. It is cringe-worthy and bad. I was having issues with James' live performances for awhile but just kept buying tickets. It was on the Octavarium tour when I finally had enough. I made the decision during that show to never see them live again. The best way I could describe his vocals is a man yelling loudly at someone across a busy 4 lane road. I think Budokan is the last live thing I bought from them.

I'm with you on Livetime. I was horrified when I heard it. I could not believe that was released. And then obviously the LA Ytsejam show. That's when I knew MP had no issue embarrassing his singer.

I actually thought James was pretty good on the 8V tour.

Their material since the 'event' has been very uneven. 2 terrible albums and 1 pretty good one. I continue to buy them and support the band in that way. Just hoping for something better.

Nah, it's all been pretty strong.

[Lethean]

I don't think any song in DT's catalogue should be played at every show. Dream Theater is a band that can play anything off their official releases and a good portion of the fan base will know it and like it.  I'm glad they never got to a point where they felt that any one song, be it Pull Me Under, Metropolis, or Spirit, had to always be included.

Controversial opinions - I dunno if I really have any. I don't think MP should ever have been allowed near a mic in the studio - maybe some find that controversial.  I think it's insane that they covered a number of full albums at 2nd night shows, but not one of those albums was a Rush album.  Um.. I think The Astonishing is phenomenal and it's one of my favorite albums; I suppose that's controversial.  I liked the no photos/video policy that they had on the TA tour.  I think New  Millennium is a fine song (and great album opener).

[Setlist Scotty]

-Spirit Carries On should not be removed from the setlist ever. If someone is gonna see DT live for the first time, they need to hear it.

Agreed. It’s one of my favorite songs by them yet I’ve seen them three times and I haven’t heard it live yet.

I agree, regarding The Spirit Carries On.  Crowds always go wild for it, but hey, they should stop playing it because a tinny tiny portion of diehards are tired of it, right? 

By that reasoning, I guess the band ought to make sure to include PMU, Metropolis, The Mirror, ACoS, Overture 1928/SDVu, AIA, 8v and TDEN in every setlist too. Of course, all those songs plus TSCO add up to roughly 1 hour and 45 minutes of music, but hey, the crowd always goes wild for them and they shouldn't stop playing them because a teeny tiny portion of diehards might get tired of them, right?   

[Drinktheater]

A consider the Astonishing as a great work, I am serious people now think its a flop and that John Petrucci over reach with it. But give it time a few decades now Dream Theater will be remembered as the band who dared and tried to go against the grain of Music in the first half of the 21st century.

Lets face it how many bands today from the prog metal genre have created a concept album like that? Yes we have Rush and all the other prog legends but that was a few decades ago DT is now and will be a legend in the future.


Bless!!!

[Adami]

A consider the Astonishing as a great work, I am serious people now think its a flop and that John Petrucci over reach with it. But give it time a few decades now Dream Theater will be remembered as the band who dared and tried to go against the grain of Music in the first half of the 21st century.

Lets face it how many bands today from the prog metal genre have created a concept album like that? Yes we have Rush and all the other prog legends but that was a few decades ago DT is now and will be a legend in the future.


Bless!!!

How many bands do big concept albums? Lots.