Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 980170 times)

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7945 on: May 13, 2017, 01:20:11 PM »
I hear ya.

" Condescending. Not intending to End " - even on the album sounds unintelligible. He does tend to lose enunciation the higher he goes.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7946 on: May 13, 2017, 09:02:05 PM »
I thought he said "Cunt ascending.."

Offline Herrick

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7947 on: May 13, 2017, 10:59:48 PM »

That's a pretty valid point if you can't stand hair metal type vocalists.
I find Dominici's voice unbearable, even if he's a pretty good singer.


Interesting. I never thought he sounded like a Hair Band vocalist but then again I don't listen to those bands because I don't like them. What little I know about them is the vocalists tried to sound "sexy" or something. Dominici never had that sound to me anyway.
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Offline PB1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7948 on: May 15, 2017, 05:52:12 AM »
I thought he said "Cunt ascending.."

No you didn't

Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7949 on: May 15, 2017, 09:11:50 AM »
Good WDADU discussion.  For the record, like a lot of fans, my problems with it are threefold (not necessarily in any order):

-Vocals:  I don't like them.  I just don't.  If that was the only time I had ever heard Charlie, I would come away with the impression that I do not like Charlie and he isn't a great vocalist.  And on top of that, I probably would never have pursued anything else of his to find out what kind of singer he is beyond WDADU.  My opinion softened a bit toward him specifically when I did hear some other things he did through the years.  WDADRU is fantastic, but James does unfortunately sound tired and his voice sounds thin.  When he and Charlie duet on TLF and Metropolis, the contrast between James sounding tired and thin (but still pretty darned good--I'm not criticizing) with Charlie's warmer, fuller tone made me take notice.  Then hearing him on his own solo stuff that is written specifically for his voice, it was great to hear him singing in a way that played to his strengths rather than trying to pull something off that didn't fit his voice.  That's when I realized that, given the right music, Charlie is actually a pretty good singer.  But the material on WDADU is not suited for him.  That, combined perhaps with him just not yet being as mature and developed as a singer led to a vocal performance on that album (and the few live performances he did) that a lot of people (myself included) find off-putting.

-Song-writing:  There are lots of really cool moments on WDADU.  But there are also lots that don't work nearly as well.  Kind of like Charlie's vocals, if this was the first album I had heard from the band, a lot of it would have been off-putting to the point that I'm not sure I would have tried to follow this band at all.  Now, part of that is just that I was not yet into prog, so some of what they were doing just would not have been accessible to me.  I&W was such a great album, in part, because they took prog and made it accessible to metal heads.  WDADU didn't really accomplish that, IMO.  The seeds of some of the things the band is known for and that distinguishes them were definitely there.  But it just didn't work in some cases.  For example, there are a lot of turn-on-a-dime abrupt transitions between seemingly unrelated parts.  That is kind of a signature DT thing.  But it catches people off guard and can be jarring to the point of taking the listener out of the song.  They got better at structuring songs with the help of outside influences on I&W, and continued to hone that on subsequent albums.  IMO, it wasn't until FII that they finally mastered having those sort of abrupt transitions without them feeling abrupt.  Another area where they matured significantly AFTER WDADU was in writing vocal melodies.  There were definitely spots on WDADU that just don't sound very polished.

-Production:  It's been said before.  It is an issue.  The album sounds flat and lifeless.  All things being equal, I think a lot of us can get past this.  But when coupled with the other issues on the album, I think it is understandable that the production issues become more glaring and hard to get over for a lot of people. 

That's it in a nutshell for me.  And I don't think it should be surprising that a lot of people feel similarly.  It just is what it is.  Because of the band's success, a lot of us have gone back and revisited the album and learned to appreciate a lot that it has to offer.  But that still does not keep it from ranking at or near the bottom of the DT discography.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7950 on: May 15, 2017, 03:41:13 PM »
I never listen to WDADU. But I always listen to WDADRu. I love that, and songwise, it is excellent.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline CB

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7951 on: May 15, 2017, 03:48:36 PM »
I like Charlie's voice, but DT's music just didn't fit his voice. I wonder why they chose him as their vocalist - and why he wanted to be their singer. To me it sounds that he was forcing his voice a lot. I like the album though. It still sounds very vivid with many signs of the future brillance to me. I agree with bosk that James' WDADRU performance wasn't that good, he was probably worn out and unfortunately yes, he sounded tired and thin (he sounded great and powerful in comparison last saturday in Lingen, 54 years old :tup).
When I listen to WDADU it's almost always this (quite rough but still...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79vk3rSD1eA


Offline SeRoX

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7952 on: May 15, 2017, 04:45:28 PM »
Oddly I like Charlie's voice on WDADU. Vocals are not in bothering level in my eyes. Could be better? Sure but in this album there are many flaws that could be better. This guy's voice doesn't fit what DT does but I'm not annoyed by his voice. Though I still think and wonder how could WDADU sound like if James was on vocals in studio. Especially TKH with screams.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7953 on: May 15, 2017, 07:42:38 PM »
On the album I actually kinda like his voice. Live however, from any old video I've seen, he was really weak. He had a weird medieval minstrel quality to him.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7954 on: May 15, 2017, 09:09:46 PM »
I disagree Rumbo.  Not a fan of his voice.
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Offline Herrick

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7955 on: May 16, 2017, 01:04:32 AM »
I always hear people say Dominici wasn't a good fit for Dream Theater but what if they wrote vocal melodies that actually suited his range?
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Offline jakepriest

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7956 on: May 16, 2017, 02:07:24 AM »
Then I wouldn't listen to them. :neverusethis:

Offline Shooters1221

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7957 on: May 16, 2017, 04:38:15 AM »
Good WDADU discussion.  For the record, like a lot of fans, my problems with it are threefold (not necessarily in any order):

-Vocals:  I don't like them.  I just don't.  If that was the only time I had ever heard Charlie, I would come away with the impression that I do not like Charlie and he isn't a great vocalist.  And on top of that, I probably would never have pursued anything else of his to find out what kind of singer he is beyond WDADU.  My opinion softened a bit toward him specifically when I did hear some other things he did through the years.  WDADRU is fantastic, but James does unfortunately sound tired and his voice sounds thin.  When he and Charlie duet on TLF and Metropolis, the contrast between James sounding tired and thin (but still pretty darned good--I'm not criticizing) with Charlie's warmer, fuller tone made me take notice.  Then hearing him on his own solo stuff that is written specifically for his voice, it was great to hear him singing in a way that played to his strengths rather than trying to pull something off that didn't fit his voice.  That's when I realized that, given the right music, Charlie is actually a pretty good singer.  But the material on WDADU is not suited for him.  That, combined perhaps with him just not yet being as mature and developed as a singer led to a vocal performance on that album (and the few live performances he did) that a lot of people (myself included) find off-putting.

-Song-writing:  There are lots of really cool moments on WDADU.  But there are also lots that don't work nearly as well.  Kind of like Charlie's vocals, if this was the first album I had heard from the band, a lot of it would have been off-putting to the point that I'm not sure I would have tried to follow this band at all.  Now, part of that is just that I was not yet into prog, so some of what they were doing just would not have been accessible to me.  I&W was such a great album, in part, because they took prog and made it accessible to metal heads.  WDADU didn't really accomplish that, IMO.  The seeds of some of the things the band is known for and that distinguishes them were definitely there.  But it just didn't work in some cases.  For example, there are a lot of turn-on-a-dime abrupt transitions between seemingly unrelated parts.  That is kind of a signature DT thing.  But it catches people off guard and can be jarring to the point of taking the listener out of the song.  They got better at structuring songs with the help of outside influences on I&W, and continued to hone that on subsequent albums.  IMO, it wasn't until FII that they finally mastered having those sort of abrupt transitions without them feeling abrupt.  Another area where they matured significantly AFTER WDADU was in writing vocal melodies.  There were definitely spots on WDADU that just don't sound very polished.

-Production:  It's been said before.  It is an issue.  The album sounds flat and lifeless.  All things being equal, I think a lot of us can get past this.  But when coupled with the other issues on the album, I think it is understandable that the production issues become more glaring and hard to get over for a lot of people. 

That's it in a nutshell for me.  And I don't think it should be surprising that a lot of people feel similarly.  It just is what it is.  Because of the band's success, a lot of us have gone back and revisited the album and learned to appreciate a lot that it has to offer.  But that still does not keep it from ranking at or near the bottom of the DT discography.

Nutshell??

I agree with all of this. The songwriting was not up to par on WDADU because, in my outside looking in opinion, the artists were still finding themselves in that respect at that point. As you pointed out, I think they grew into that with I&W and Awake and kind of smoothed the edges with their transitioning from one part to the next. I still know people to this day that won't listen to DT because of the abrupt changing of tempo/key/etc... I tell them, that's known as progressive and I think DT has really mastered that part of the writing process. I have, through the years, tried to broaden my prog/metal library and some stick, some don't. I find that the ones that normally don't stick are the ones with what I call the WDADU type writing process which just doesn't seem to be quite where it needs to be yet...of course, IMO.

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7958 on: May 17, 2017, 04:18:32 PM »
I always hear people say Dominici wasn't a good fit for Dream Theater but what if they wrote vocal melodies that actually suited his range?

CD wasn't really the style of singer that suited DT.  So, writing vocal melodies to fit his range would not have mattered anyway.  I really didn't mind his singing too much.  He had some good moments, just not enough good moments.
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Offline Evai

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7959 on: May 17, 2017, 04:28:32 PM »
I would quite enjoy a one off TA gig with Dominci as Gabriel and Portnoy as Nafaryus, their voices would embody the characters quite well
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7960 on: May 17, 2017, 04:31:54 PM »
I would quite enjoy a one off TA gig with Dominci as Gabriel and Portnoy as Nafaryus, their voices would embody the characters quite well
Interesting idea, but I would move Portnoy to Daryus.  James does too good a Nefaryus to take him off that role.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7961 on: May 17, 2017, 04:49:07 PM »
I would quite enjoy a one off TA gig with Dominci as Gabriel and Portnoy as Nafaryus, their voices would embody the characters quite well
Interesting idea, but I would move Portnoy to Daryus.  James does too good a Nefaryus to take him off that role.

Since James goes for a Freddie Mercuryish Nefaryus, how about Adam Lambert.

Personally, Chiago does an awesome job. I'd be fine with his troupe doing the whole thing.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Scottjf8

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7962 on: May 17, 2017, 11:22:47 PM »
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

Offline Devin Townsend

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7963 on: May 18, 2017, 12:11:45 AM »
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

The chorus feels way too upbeat for the more melancholy verses, I somewhat agree a little

Offline Bertielee

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7964 on: May 18, 2017, 01:32:34 AM »
I would quite enjoy a one off TA gig with Dominci as Gabriel and Portnoy as Nafaryus, their voices would embody the characters quite well
Interesting idea, but I would move Portnoy to Daryus.  James does too good a Nefaryus to take him off that role.

Since James goes for a Freddie Mercuryish Nefaryus, how about Adam Lambert.

Personally, Chiago does an awesome job. I'd be fine with his troupe doing the whole thing.

Did you mean Thiago? Do they cover some Dream Cheacer?  :biggrin:
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Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7965 on: May 18, 2017, 11:17:20 AM »
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.
I'd say it is much better than most of the songs that DT released in the last 10 years.

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7966 on: May 18, 2017, 11:36:50 AM »
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

Of course it's controversial.  Most DT fans would disagree.  It's a great song.


Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.
I'd say it is much better than most of the songs that DT released in the last 10 years.

Agreed.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7967 on: May 18, 2017, 11:39:05 AM »
A Change of Seasons
Surrounded
Scarred
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream


I don't like any of these songs.


Moreover - I think Our New World could be their best song since Octavarium. Also better than Breaking All Illusions. Which I also find medium.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7968 on: May 18, 2017, 11:43:07 AM »
A Change of Seasons
Surrounded
Scarred
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream


I don't like any of these songs.


Moreover - I think Our New World could be their best song since Octavarium. Also better than Breaking All Illusions. Which I also find medium.

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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7969 on: May 18, 2017, 11:52:13 AM »
A Change of Seasons
Surrounded
Scarred
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream


I don't like any of these songs.


Moreover - I think Our New World could be their best song since Octavarium. Also better than Breaking All Illusions. Which I also find medium.

There's not a single thing about your post I agree with. Probably I don't even agree with the punctuation  :lol
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7970 on: May 18, 2017, 01:55:09 PM »
I'm into songs over prog.

A change of seasons has never clicked with me.

Offline Sycsa

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7971 on: May 18, 2017, 01:55:21 PM »
I hear ya.

" Condescending. Not intending to End " - even on the album sounds unintelligible. He does tend to lose enunciation the higher he goes.
I hear "Condescending. Not intending to waaa-aaaaaah"


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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7972 on: May 18, 2017, 02:01:30 PM »
I actually hear

Con den den yen Waahhn in yem yem de Haaaa Oooohhhhhh


:p

Offline t-bone2112

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7973 on: May 18, 2017, 09:50:50 PM »
Wow, A Change of Seasons and Surrounded are two of my absolute favorite DT songs!  I can't see how anyone would not love them.

But that's one of the amazing things about this band.  The fans have so many different outlooks on their music.  It's cool.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7974 on: May 19, 2017, 05:18:39 AM »
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

Lifting Shadows is one of the best songs off Awake

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7975 on: May 19, 2017, 06:52:31 AM »
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

Lifting Shadows is one of the best songs off Awake

Metal fans hate uplifting section.   :lol
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7976 on: May 19, 2017, 10:35:35 AM »
I'm a metal fan and I like it just fine.  That's the thing about Awake.  The mellow stuff is good and there's not too much of it.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7977 on: May 19, 2017, 10:42:01 AM »
It is possible for metal fans to like non metal music.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7978 on: May 19, 2017, 11:26:26 AM »
Yeah, but not all non metal music.  TA is non metal and I don't like it.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7979 on: May 19, 2017, 12:58:54 PM »
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

Lifting Shadows is one of the best songs off Awake

Metal fans hate uplifting section.   :lol