Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[erwinrafael]

The interview does touch on that. For Petrucci, ADTOE is the album for the long-time fans:

"We felt we had something to prove with that album. We all were obviously deeply affected by Mike [Portnoy]’s departure, and we felt we needed to make the kind of record that people who had been longtime listeners of Dream Theater would immediately identify with and relate to and believe in. So we created something that had all the elements that make Dream Theater unique as a band. And I have to say, people were unbelievably wonderful and supportive of us during that time, which was an incredible feeling."

The Dream Theater album, however, is different. Maybe Petrucci thinks that the song length is one of the barriers to newer fans who are not used to hearing songs at the 10-12 minute range:

"Q: On first listen, one of the first things that struck me about the new Dream Theater was that, save for the 20-minute epic at the end, these songs are pretty streamlined, relatively speaking. Was that intentional?

A: Absolutely. As I mentioned earlier, there was a total intent to make this sort of a definitive album, and there was definitely in our minds a way to get there. One of those paths was to offer things that maybe we’re somewhat known for but haven’t actually done in a while —a standalone instrumental like “Enigma Machine,” for example, or a long-form, 20-minute epic like “Illumination Theory.”

Another path dealt with how to approach the rest of the music. One of the things we’ve done a lot in our career is to make albums where almost every song is in the 10-to-12-minute range. That’s fun, and that’s challenging, but we wanted these songs to really hit.

So we said, “How can we make every song on this album be a pummeling experience from beginning to end, without stripping away any of the integrity or the musical complexity or the melody or, really, anything that makes us unique as far as how we write?” So it was fun and it was really different from what we usually do. It was an incredibly exciting process for us."

[BlobVanDam]

I prefer to let the music do the talking, rather than the band.
ADTOE is a much better reference point of the band than DT12 in every regard imo.

[erwinrafael]

I prefer to let the music do the talking, rather than the band.
ADTOE is a much better reference point of the band than DT12 in every regard imo.

Try to give it to a casual listener who has not heard of DT. I actually got people who do not listen to much prog to appreciate TLG and TBP, but they can not finish the songs in ADTOE. My wife, for example, listens to Breaking All Illusions with a smile, then returns to me the earphones once the chorus is finished. 

[425]

I don't think anyone is disputing the idea that DT12 is a better starting point for a non-prog fan than ADTOE. But that's completely different than it being a "reference point" for the DT discography. If you want me to point to an album and say "this encapsulates what Dream Theater is about," I would not point to DT12, an album that does not have a single song in the 8-19 minute range. I wouldn't even consider it. But I would strongly consider pointing to ADTOE.

[BlobVanDam]

I prefer to let the music do the talking, rather than the band.
ADTOE is a much better reference point of the band than DT12 in every regard imo.

Try to give it to a casual listener who has not heard of DT. I actually got people who do not listen to much prog to appreciate TLG and TBP, but they can not finish the songs in ADTOE. My wife, for example, listens to Breaking All Illusions with a smile, then returns to me the earphones once the chorus is finished. 

If it appeals more to non-fans, then it's not a representative DT album, and is not a good baseline for them. That would just make it a more mainstream album.
And tbh I don't think DT12 is a strong enough album to be showing to new listeners anyway. If I want to show them more accessible material, there are many other DT songs/albums I'd show them first.

[erwinrafael]

I don't think anyone is disputing the idea that DT12 is a better starting point for a non-prog fan than ADTOE. But that's completely different than it being a "reference point" for the DT discography. If you want me to point to an album and say "this encapsulates what Dream Theater is about," I would not point to DT12, an album that does not have a single song in the 8-19 minute range. I wouldn't even consider it. But I would strongly consider pointing to ADTOE.

Yes, yes, ADTOE is more representative of the DT discography. I think what JP means by reference point is that Dream Theater is an album that sounds like DT but can be easily given to a newer fan as an introduction to the band. It's like a sampler, for those fans who might have heard of them because of the Grammy nominations exposure or something like that.

If it appeals more to non-fans, then it's not a representative DT album, and is not a good baseline for them. That would just make it a more mainstream album.
And tbh I don't think DT12 is a strong enough album to be showing to new listeners anyway. If I want to show them more accessible material, there are many other DT songs/albums I'd show them first.

But have you actually tried to get non-fans from a younger generation to listen to these albums? Was there any actual experience where you gave a Dream Theater album to somebody who is not yet exposed to their music? I have done my fair share of sharing the music to non-fans. And my experience is that a lot of people who I shared DT albums with do not have the patience to sit through the 8-9 minute songs but got hooked by the shorter songs of DT12.

It is a more mainstream album. It was the intention of the album! "Newer fans don’t have that reference point. We wanted to make this album a reference point for them as far as what Dream Theater is all about." It is aimed at newer fans.

They have done this twice, in FII and 8VM. What they did in those albums to make the songs more mainstream is, aside from shortening the songs, they changed their sound to incorporate elements in the current music scene. What we got then are short songs that do not sound like DT, but instead sounded like Muse, or U2. We got the trying to be pop song You Not Me and a slew of slow rock songs. With the Dream Theater album, they shortened the songs, but they tried not to lose what they sounded like so that it is a "reference point" to what they actually sound like.

My take is that:

newer fans = shorter, less intimidating song structures

reference point = retain the Dream Theater sound instead of trying to sound like another band


Now, for me, even as a longtime fan, I really appreciate the Dream Theater album because it gives me concise representations of my favorite band. It's a good listen while going on a short walk from my office room to my class, where I can finish The Looking Glass just by the time I get to the door. It's something I can listen to in between lectures, during short commutes, just before I go to sleep, while washing the dishes, or going to the convenience store or the grocery. It is a good Dream Theater listening experience on a mobile device, where I just consume the music in bite-sized pieces as I go about doing several other things.

[CDrice]

It's something I can listen to in between lectures, during short commutes, just before I go to sleep, while washing the dishes, or going to the convenience store or the grocery.

Oh I'm sure a lot people will agree with you with that one... just for not the same reasons than you 

It's something I can listen to in between lectures, during short commutes, just before I go to sleep, while washing the dishes, or going to the convenience store or the grocery.

The Dream Theater dishwasher: Helping you washing dishes in odd-time since 1989! Buy now for only 8 payments of 58.85$.

But I think what you're saying makes sense and I'll be inclined to agree with you.

[KevShmev]

Same here.  The Looking Glass is easily one of their most accessible songs ever.  Both the riff and vocal melodies are catchy as heck, and it is short enough to not turn off the average person on length alone.  You could do a lot worse than having someone who has never heard DT listening to that first.

[nightmare_cinema]

Last time I was around these parts it seemed the vast majority of people were proclaiming the self-titled as one of DT's best records, everyone was going crazy over it! I felt back then it just wasn't sinking in and probably never would and I was right, it never did. It's one of the biggest disappointments musically, considering I'm the kinda person that thinks every album from I&W onwards was incredible in its own right, it just didn't feel like the same band anymore. But who knows what'll come next? I'm not hopeful, but I will be keeping an open mind.

The self-titled is one of their most polarizing albums (along with, I would argue, FII and 8VM). People who don't like it typically don't like it at all, while people who do like it typically rank it among DT's best records. That can easily give you the impression that everyone loves it, if you happen to read more of the posts where people say it is one of the best, and it can also give you the impression that most people don't like it, if you happen to read more of the other kind of posts.

It is easy to appreciate the self-titled if you take it in the spirit of  what I think the band aimed for: a concise statement to be given to somebody who asks "What is Dream Theater?" Instead of going the FII or 8VM route, though, of trying to change their sound to fit in more mainstream sensibilities to appeal to more people, DT instead retained their core sound but made it straight-to-the-point, so that the non-long time fan who will sample it will get what Dream Theater is in a concise package.

The album was not aimed at the long-time fans, which, in one interview, JP said he's pretty sure already have their own favorite albums in the discography. This is the exact quote:

"Because we believe that, although we have a very deep and rich history and we’re incredibly proud of everything we’ve done, we’re still making our best music. So we wanted to make a point of that. The other thing is that a lot of our longtime fans already have their favorite albums of ours, but newer fans don’t have that reference point. We wanted to make this album a reference point for them as far as what Dream Theater is all about. That was the goal and the mission, and it set the tone for the entire project."

It's pretty interesting that they consider it to be a reference point to what DT is all about... I guess it's tough for me because the thing that's always gotten me most excited about DT is how their music makes me feel, it's nothing really to do with song length, technicality, although I reckon that not constraining themselves to short songs couple with being able to play pretty much anything they can imagine or come up with is a big part of why their songs and albums are so creative and different. So if I were showing someone DT, as a reference point, I guess I'd choose something like SFAM, it encapsulates so much of what DT is about. It's a concept album, there are so many feels on that record, there are the long complex instrumental sections alongside soft more ballady songs, mindblowing solos, I guess yeah, many people new to DT might be turned off by it not having loads of short accessible songs on it, but I'd be surprised if someone easily turned off by the length/complexity etc. ended up getting into DT anyway, as you kinda can't escape that in their music.

So it's pretty  much as far away from being a reference point as I can imagine, based on my own tastes. It's not really a bad record, I'm just listening again now because I tend to avoid it like the plague and yeah, there are some moments of brilliance on there, but the thing I've always loved about DT is you struggle to go ten seconds without something amazing that makes you stop and really listen, and those moments are so thin on the ground here. I just feel like they tried so hard to make something representative of the band as a whole (from the interviews mentioned here) they forgot to actually just go forward and make an amazing record like they've been doing effortlessly for the past twenty five/thirty years.

I have to say, from any other band, this album would probably rank as 'pretty good'. It's just my expectations of DT are so high. So compared to what I know they've been capable of, this falls short. I'm glad so many people enjoy it, though. Although I was disappointed, it's no big deal when you consider the other 10 albums that I still listen to on a very regular basis after a decade and hold enormous respect for me (I don't include WDADU just because it's never really done it for me).

[Cable]

I prefer to let the music do the talking, rather than the band.
ADTOE is a much better reference point of the band than DT12 in every regard imo.

JP's quotes from Erwin made me think differently about ADTOE and DT12. The music is always there, and in 40 years that will talk more than buried quotes. So on that end I agree.

I respect what JP said, and both albums have always struck me as agenda driven albums. I never knew that about ADTOE, and makes more sense the borrowing of I&W structures and moods, for better or for worse, to re-hook disenfranchised fans. And DT12, for all of it's flaws, was more straight-forward as a whole compared to ADTOE & BC&SL

The Looking Glass is easily one of their most accessible songs ever.  Both the riff and vocal melodies are catchy as heck, and it is short enough to not turn off the average person on length alone. 

I will add in Along For The Ride, and STR is a bit longer but accessible. Many of the songs have those more straight ahead movements vs. unisons and solo trade offs. DT12 was not FII, but I feel it went after a similar spirit, while still retaining DT hallmarks. Maybe it established a future direction for DT. And if so, it did that pretty well as a transitionary album. Which according to things JP has said, and the album title in itself, that is what it is/was.

If all other albums post DT12 are duds, well then history will look at DT12, and maybe before as a continued downward slide for the band.

[JiM-Xtreme]

LSFNY is JLB's best recorded live performance.

Yes, I know - his range was severely limited during this period, especially live, and it didn't come close to being fully recovered until around about the Octavarium tour. But think about it - this show came at the very end of a long tour and the setlist is one of the most epic and demanding in the band's history, and the guy just belts out every single song with absolutely no restraint. Vocally, the guy was going through absolute hell and yet for some reason, here, his voice has a wonderful, raw, spontaneous and aggressive quality that I'm not sure he has replicated before or since, with the exception of maybe LATM or certain other shows on the I&W tour. And it's not like we're even talking about your standard DT show here - we're talking about possibly the longest and most vocally demanding in DT's history (and bear in mind DT were in the habit of frequently rotating setlists during this period). All of SFAM, followed by a brutal second set including the likes of Metropolis Pt. 1, The Mirror, Another Day, A Mind Beside Itself, Learning to Live and A Change of Seasons in it's entirity. He does all of that, and he even has enough vocal strength to ironically apologise about the short set at the very end!

Another thing that makes this performance "especially special" is that on a couple of occasions, JLB knows he cannot possibly hit certain notes, so he'll do something even more awesome to compensate. Best example of this is in Learning to Live - JLB knows he cannot hit that F#, so he doesn't even attempt to go for it, opting instead to sing a slightly lower harmony. But does he leave it at that? Does he heck - he sings an incredible harmony with JP's guitar lead in the following section that acts as the climax of the song, and indeed the second set, resulting in what is for my money the most chill-inducing live moment of DT's career - or if not that, perhaps second only to his duet with Theresa Thompson of TSCO in the first set.

Another example of where James doesn't quite hit the high notes is The Mirror. Listen to the "I spent so long trusting in you etc." line - clearly he doesn't "nail" it as per the record, but listen to what he does instead. Does it make the song any less awesome? Does it heck - if anything, I think I actually prefer this version to the studio version.

Bottom line is this - what James lacks in range in this show, he more than makes up for with the sheer, brutal passion with which he delivers his vocals in this, one of DT's longest and most demanding shows to date. That's why if I needed to convince anyone of what a truly amazing vocalist JLB is, I wouldn't show them Score or BTFW - it would be Live Scenes all the way 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

That's a very nice interpretation, with some very interesting points. Funnily enough, JLB at his pure peak is Score...no doubt, but I agree that his most passionate, heart-wrenching performance is that of LSFNY. Like you just said, his performance is powerful and inspiring like no other time I've heard the man sing before.

[BlobVanDam]

JLB ruins that whole part of LTL with his stuff over the guitar solo. You couldn't hit the note, just back down and accept the loss.

JLB has luckily improved tremendously since then, being pretty consistently great for the past decade.

[Darkstarshades]

No solo has ever been more ruined by JLB than "Let me see the hands everyone... Trust me, it looks cool". Only bad thing of live Illumination Theory, and the reason why I don't listen to it.

[Train of Naught]

I always thought that iv. The Pursuit of Truth was the worst part of the live version, such high notes.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

JLB ruins that whole part of LTL with his stuff over the guitar solo. You couldn't hit the note, just back down and accept the loss.

I don't think it's like that. The original demo of LTL had that vocal line with the guitar solo, so it seems to me like another nod to the past from them. It's quite climatic, I'd say.

Also, I wouldn't say not hitting the note is a 'loss'. For many years I related good singing and expression with vocal range, which is pretty common at least in some people who like metal with vocalists who can constantly hit notes in the sky...and I used to think JLB not hitting the F# was something terrible, but not anymore. The decision of not trying to hit the note and just playing to your capabilities seems mature and reasonable, and every note he sings afterwards in that version of LTL sounds powerful and passionate; and that's good enough for me. I pray JLB realises soon he doesn't have his 28 year old voice anymore so we will stop trying to reach the higher notes like he used to, because nowadays it just doesn't sound good. Wacken show is proof of that, I'd say.

[hefdaddy42]

JLB ruins that whole part of LTL with his stuff over the guitar solo. You couldn't hit the note, just back down and accept the loss.

I don't think it's like that. The original demo of LTL had that vocal line with the guitar solo, so it seems to me like another nod to the past from them. It's quite climatic, I'd say.

Also, I wouldn't say not hitting the note is a 'loss'. For many years I related good singing and expression with vocal range, which is pretty common at least in some people who like metal with vocalists who can constantly hit notes in the sky...and I used to think JLB not hitting the F# was something terrible, but not anymore. The decision of not trying to hit the note and just playing to your capabilities seems mature and reasonable, and every note he sings afterwards in that version of LTL sounds powerful and passionate; and that's good enough for me. I pray JLB realises soon he doesn't have his 28 year old voice anymore so we will stop trying to reach the higher notes like he used to, because nowadays it just doesn't sound good. Wacken show is proof of that, I'd say.

I agree with all of this.

[Onno]

Me too. I'd much rather have James sing the higher vocal lines differently than him singing slightly above his range. Doing so isn't good for voice, it doesn't sound too great and it's hard to do on longer tours.

[rumborak]

Thing is, I find he's not doing a particularly good job at coming up with alternate melodies. Like, instead of replacing certain sections with a new, good melody that he can solidly sing (and thus make sound good), he leaves it as-is, but then essentially backs out at the last second. That makes it jarring and super-obvious.

[MoraWintersoul]

I think it's only obvious to us.

[Darkstarshades]

James LaBrie should be demoted to being the official tambourine DT player.

They should hire another singer.

Is that ok for you? JLB haters?

[bl5150]

At least then we won't have to listen to his bad language.

[Darkstarshades]

At least then we won't have to listen to his bad language.

I feel... so proud of you...
I don't know why so many people don't feel insulted with his live phrasing. I mean, other metal bands are so polite... and use such cult words... but James... Yeah, this would solve it!

For further information for non-knowers, please head to "For a DTF without swearing" on General Discussion to share your thoughts on DT's constant bad wording. Join the crusade!

[ReaPsTA]

James LaBrie should be demoted to being the official tambourine DT player.

They should hire another singer.

Is that ok for you? JLB haters?

JLB's position on stage should be kinda awkwardly crammed between the guitar amps and the drum kit.  He should make sure to bring his microphone stand on and off stage with him so we don't have to remember he's there when there's no tamborine to be played.

Who should be the new DT singer? I know I'm being controversial here, but Daniel Gildenlow? I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers.

[jasc15]

Maybe this isn't controversial, but more of a minor complaint.

The LSFNY version of A Change of Seasons is nearly perfect with the exception of the end of JP's solo beginning with "..untie these strings, I'm climbing down. I won't let them push me away."

I think it's my favorite JP solo, the ending is perfect on the studio version, and he just kinda fudges or improvises the last bar which is a real letdown for me on that version.

[Dublagent66]

That's a pretty good version of ACOS until "The Inevitable Summer" instrumental where JP just butchers the shit of it.  Dude, everybody knows you're the king of shred.  Will you just play it like it's written?  That was one of the best parts of the whole song.  Don't sacrifice the quality of the song with excessive wankery.  These days I just prefer to hear the studio version.

[jasc15]

Yeah, he did that in Hollow Years on L@B.  Shredding is completely uncalled-for in that song.

[?]

Yeah, he did that in Hollow Years on L@B.  Shredding is completely uncalled-for in that song.

Agreed.

[jasc15]

He writes good non-shred solos and performs them well.  However, I don't think he is any good improvising.  You can see when he goes "off script", then pauses, and shreds his way out of the improv.  He ends a lot of solos like this, and I think it hurts his live performances.

[Dublagent66]

Well, I agree to a certain point, but the L@B version of HY was a rendition of the original.  The solo was added in.  Not really the same scenario as ACOS.  I actually like the L@B version of HY.  But yeah, I can understand why some people would want to hear that song in it original state.  Either way , I like it.

[Darkstarshades]

I think the greatest example of his shredding nonsensical stuff is at his solo at Luna Park.
It's all fine, all good, and Jordan plays along with him awesomely, then he starts shredding. It sounds so atonal, so out of place, so unnecessary, it's not melodic in anyway and it doesn't sound like that. When he does slow parts (like the one where he sits in front of the drums) are just beautiful, but the other shredding parts are pretty unnecessary and makes me wonder why didn't he just continue playing along with JR.

[abydos]

While I also dislike that part about his playing, what I dislike even more is that it seems to control how they compose music overall.

[rumborak]

Does anyone else have this that DT is kinda completely off the radar? Like, it used to be that there were obvious high times (album, DVD releases), but the low times were "simmering" at the very least, with maybe once a month a new factoid emerging that was interesting.
I don't know, with all this secrecy regarding the new album, and the rigid set lists, they've just completely gone off my radar.

[TAC]

Does anyone else have this that DT is kinda completely off the radar? Like, it used to be that there were obvious high times (album, DVD releases), but the low times were "simmering" at the very least, with maybe once a month a new factoid emerging that was interesting.
I don't know, with all this secrecy regarding the new album, and the rigid set lists, they've just completely gone off my radar.

That's reasonable. And what really gets me was there was so little attention on the summer tour. I feel like there needs to be a connection made with the fans if there is going to be this long between albums. And I don't mean the stock kind of statements that JP has been churning out over the last few years.

[King Postwhore]

Well yeah but you know us Americans, if the tour isn't near us we don't pay attention.