Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 979667 times)

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Offline Sycsa

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5390 on: August 20, 2014, 10:05:59 AM »
Also, not gonna lie, I hear JLB channeling Hetfield at times.
After the last chorus, at the "As I aaaaaammmm....yeeeeeeeaaaaaah" part, it's hard not to think of Hetfield. Of course it has that unique DT flavor, but parts As I Am strongly reminded me of Metallica and Enter Sandman since the first time I heard it.


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Offline Mosh

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5391 on: August 20, 2014, 10:21:34 AM »
Yup that's exactly what I was thinking of. Undeniably Hetfield.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5392 on: August 20, 2014, 10:58:20 AM »
I'm going to get perma-banned for that, aren't I...
Nope.  But you're still new, don't give up hope yet.
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5393 on: August 23, 2014, 06:28:51 PM »
You know it's funny that at least a few people have mentioned that James sounded like Hetfield on ToT. There were a few parts where I thought he sounded like Dave Mustaine.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5394 on: August 23, 2014, 06:47:01 PM »
You know it's funny that at least a few people have mentioned that James sounded like Hetfield on ToT. There were a few parts where I thought he sounded like Dave Mustaine.

Which ones?
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5395 on: August 23, 2014, 08:26:31 PM »
Not necessarily WHOLE songs, but PARTS of songs. I just thought it was ironic that I thought I was hearing Mustaine, when other people said they were hearing Hetfield.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5396 on: August 23, 2014, 08:32:35 PM »
The only time I hear James sounding like Mustaine is after the Blackened section in This Dying Soul.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5397 on: August 23, 2014, 09:30:49 PM »
He's definitely channeling Hetfield and Mustaine in TDS (although he has a natural tendency to sound like Mustaine at times, so that's not intentional), and maybe a bit here or there, but overall he sings a lot cleaner on ToT than growlier.

He sounds so much like Mustaine on Crucify from EoP, that the first time I heard it, I didn't know what it was, and thought it was Megadeth. :lol
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5398 on: August 24, 2014, 03:17:25 AM »

He sounds so much like Mustaine on Crucify from EoP, that the first time I heard it, I didn't know what it was, and thought it was Megadeth. :lol

You think so? That's like, my favorite song on the album!
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5399 on: August 24, 2014, 03:22:11 AM »

He sounds so much like Mustaine on Crucify from EoP, that the first time I heard it, I didn't know what it was, and thought it was Megadeth. :lol

You think so? That's like, my favorite song on the album!

It's one of my favourites too. I never meant it as a bad thing!
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5400 on: August 24, 2014, 03:27:30 AM »
It's one of my favourites too. I never meant it as a bad thing!
I just listened to it, and I can't say I hear any Mustainisms in it, unless you couny the solos, but I can hardly blame LaBrie for those, haha.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5401 on: August 24, 2014, 04:24:41 AM »
It's one of my favourites too. I never meant it as a bad thing!
I just listened to it, and I can't say I hear any Mustainisms in it, unless you couny the solos, but I can hardly blame LaBrie for those, haha.

His voice in the verses just reminded me of Mustaine's voice. I wouldn't say there was anything else dinstinctly Mustaine to his performance, but LaBrie can occasionally sound a bit like a much, much, much better version of Mustaine. And the song is kinda thrashy. That's where the similarities end.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Sycsa

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5402 on: August 24, 2014, 04:25:59 AM »
The only time James strongly reminded me of Mustaine was during the first verse of Behind the Veil.


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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5403 on: August 24, 2014, 04:27:24 AM »
The only time James strongly reminded me of Mustaine was during the first verse of Behind the Veil.

His spoken verses in This Dying Soul sound Mustaine-y too. Not sure there's much else, at least in DT.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5404 on: August 24, 2014, 04:43:54 AM »
Except James can sing in key. :lol
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5405 on: August 24, 2014, 04:44:52 AM »
I don't think anyone's comparing singing ability here. :lol Just the toooooooone.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5406 on: August 24, 2014, 04:53:43 AM »
 :lol

Yup.  I actually think that section you talked about was inspired by MP.  Remember in the Doc of TOT how he pushed James to sing certain ways.  That's all MP to me.
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So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5407 on: August 24, 2014, 04:56:06 AM »
I don't think MP was pushing him to sound like that, that's just how JLB's voice sounds when he gets growlier, whether sung or spoken, and MP pointed that out. He sounds equally Mustaine-y on Crucify too, without any MP input.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5408 on: August 24, 2014, 04:59:25 AM »
I'm not saying it's a bad thing.  I think it fits perfect for the tone of the material and what the song is about.
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So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5409 on: August 24, 2014, 05:01:06 AM »
I know, I'm just saying it doesn't take much pushing for JLB to sound like that, so I don't think it was all MP, even if it was his idea to steer in that direction.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5410 on: August 24, 2014, 05:03:23 AM »
That I agree with.  I think his lower register is better than his high register later in his career.
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So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Tomislav95

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5411 on: August 24, 2014, 07:39:05 AM »
This conversation reminded me of TROAE on LALP, James sounds like Hetfield there to me
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5412 on: August 24, 2014, 09:49:51 AM »
The only time James strongly reminded me of Mustaine was during the first verse of Behind the Veil.

His spoken verses in This Dying Soul sound Mustaine-y too. Not sure there's much else, at least in DT.

Yes, and yes. Wow, I never even thought of it, but yes, very Mustainy. Well, at least he said, "Hello, mirror, so glad to see you my friend," and not, "Hello me! Meet the real me!"
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5413 on: August 24, 2014, 02:05:07 PM »
Actually it was "As I Am."

I just listened to it, And I don't hear it as much as I did at first, but it's there.

From the "Watching through a window" part, through the end of the chorus.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5414 on: October 27, 2014, 09:23:01 PM »
Okay, I just realized why MP's comment bothered me so much, when he said that if they were looking for a new vocalist, he wouldn't pick JLB.
The whole issue is that he was talking about going with a more fashionable choice, and these days, JLB's vocal style isn't all that fashionable, and that's completely understandable, so I couldn't figure out why it bothered me so much. It wasn't just that JLB is awesome and we should all love JLB, I mean, I wasn't into his vocal style at first either. But today, it finally occurred to me.

Basically, he implied that he'd go for a more contemporary vocal style, something that's more fashionable now... Which is fine, but when you think about it, Prog Metal in itself hasn't been fashionable for a long time. Heck, even when DT started out, it wasn't at the top of its popularity of anything. And this has all been said before. But here's the issue: He singled out JLB. Okay, so back then, they wanted a certain style, a certain sound, and they combined elements from bands they loved, they combined Metallica's heaviness, Iron Maiden's epicness, Rush's complex structures and time signatures, etc. And all this resonated in their sound, including their vocalists. Even before JLB, Chris Collins and Charlie Dominici were both softer vocalists, whose style in Dream Theater could be compared to people like Geddy Lee, John Arch or (then) Geoff Tate. So when JLB came along, yes, while he had monstrously higher range than the previous guys, and the power and intensity enough to blow you away, he still had the softer timbre and more Rush like quality.
What's my point? My point is that at the time, even if JLB's vocal style wasn't that far removed from Glam Metal, Glam was already on its way out, and DT's style wasn't that anyway so it wasn't like they were planning to get mainstream success by riding the coat tails of Motley Crue or Dokken. All they were trying to do was stay true to themselves and the kind of musical vision they had in mind.
But now, (and when I say now, I mean at the time of the interview) he said they'd go for a more fashionable voice, and wouldn't hire JLB. Again, that's fine, many years had passed, and MP clearly is a different person now than he was, and opinions change, etc. But again, the problem was that he singled out JLB. He could've said, "We'd probably also end up with two guitarists instead of keyboards," or "We probably wouldn't be playing Prog, but rather something heavier and more straight forward". He basically said, "That's our vocalist, and if we were looking for a new vocalist now, we wouldn't hire him," which is almost like saying, "We're only keeping him around because that's just what everyone is used to by now and that's the range our catalog is in." And that bothers me not only because it's disrespectful to JLB, but because it really seems like he'd given it some thought, in that particular context.

Just felt like sharing.
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5415 on: October 27, 2014, 10:25:05 PM »
It also seems like when he talks about more controversial things he tends to use the word "we" but no other member has given any indication that they share his sentiment  (When it is less controversial and more universally praised he likes to use the word "I").    John Petrucci has never said anything near that regarding wanting to replace James.  In Lifting Shadows (the book) the closest JP comes to criticisizing James during that time was that he said something along the lines of, "We just asked him, 'Are you even into this anymore?'"  The rest of what he said was very caring in nature.  Jordan essentially had no comment since he was still the new guy.  JM wasn't quoted at all. 

I think it is clear that the "we" MP was talking about was just him. 

But yeah, GreatPretender, you made a great point.  If they would have changed vocalist they would have lost a lot of momentum (and yeah, maybe gained some momentum but I doubt it would last).  They would have chased a trendier sound and it really would have divided the fans.  Even though there are a lot of DT fans that complain about the band and a lot have fallen off in number, there is a much larger group that is still incredibly devout. 

I for one probably would not have stuck around if they went with a Russell Allen type.  Talented guy no doubt but there is something about his voice I could never get into. 

Offline Skeever

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5416 on: October 28, 2014, 04:36:39 AM »
Okay, I just realized why MP's comment bothered me so much, when he said that if they were looking for a new vocalist, he wouldn't pick JLB.
The whole issue is that he was talking about going with a more fashionable choice, and these days, JLB's vocal style isn't all that fashionable, and that's completely understandable, so I couldn't figure out why it bothered me so much. It wasn't just that JLB is awesome and we should all love JLB, I mean, I wasn't into his vocal style at first either. But today, it finally occurred to me.

Basically, he implied that he'd go for a more contemporary vocal style, something that's more fashionable now... Which is fine, but when you think about it, Prog Metal in itself hasn't been fashionable for a long time. Heck, even when DT started out, it wasn't at the top of its popularity of anything. And this has all been said before. But here's the issue: He singled out JLB. Okay, so back then, they wanted a certain style, a certain sound, and they combined elements from bands they loved, they combined Metallica's heaviness, Iron Maiden's epicness, Rush's complex structures and time signatures, etc. And all this resonated in their sound, including their vocalists. Even before JLB, Chris Collins and Charlie Dominici were both softer vocalists, whose style in Dream Theater could be compared to people like Geddy Lee, John Arch or (then) Geoff Tate. So when JLB came along, yes, while he had monstrously higher range than the previous guys, and the power and intensity enough to blow you away, he still had the softer timbre and more Rush like quality.
What's my point? My point is that at the time, even if JLB's vocal style wasn't that far removed from Glam Metal, Glam was already on its way out, and DT's style wasn't that anyway so it wasn't like they were planning to get mainstream success by riding the coat tails of Motley Crue or Dokken. All they were trying to do was stay true to themselves and the kind of musical vision they had in mind.
But now, (and when I say now, I mean at the time of the interview) he said they'd go for a more fashionable voice, and wouldn't hire JLB. Again, that's fine, many years had passed, and MP clearly is a different person now than he was, and opinions change, etc. But again, the problem was that he singled out JLB. He could've said, "We'd probably also end up with two guitarists instead of keyboards," or "We probably wouldn't be playing Prog, but rather something heavier and more straight forward". He basically said, "That's our vocalist, and if we were looking for a new vocalist now, we wouldn't hire him," which is almost like saying, "We're only keeping him around because that's just what everyone is used to by now and that's the range our catalog is in." And that bothers me not only because it's disrespectful to JLB, but because it really seems like he'd given it some thought, in that particular context.

Just felt like sharing.
A couple things:

1. Keep in mind, when MP says those things, they're coming from a guy who's listened to recordings of every single performance. I have also heard a lot of them, and to be honest many bootlegs of DT's performances do not portray James in a very flattering way (and from that era, I would even change many to "most")
2. I've never heard MP say he wanted a new vocalist so DT could be heavier. I always have heard him say that he thought DT would have been better with more of a songwriter type singer, like H. from Marillion. This leads me to believe that maybe MP thought DT could have morphed into something more like Neal Morse or Flying Colors - still prog but with much more potential for "singles".
3. Yes, all that is pretty hypocritical coming from a guy who insisted his label forced him to be more commercial two album before James got his ultimatum. 

Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5417 on: October 28, 2014, 07:58:06 AM »
TGP, MP made an infamous interview back in the day where he said he would rather choose a singer like Mike Patton if he had had the choice at the time of the interview.
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Offline Sycsa

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5418 on: October 28, 2014, 08:05:43 AM »
TGP, MP made an infamous interview back in the day where he said he would rather choose a singer like Mike Patton if he had had the choice at the time of the interview.
Not sure whether you are aware of this.
MP must have had a midlife crisis. :neverusethis:


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Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5419 on: October 28, 2014, 08:20:41 AM »
In James he definitely had no faith, no more.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5420 on: October 28, 2014, 09:06:03 AM »
A couple things:

1. Keep in mind, when MP says those things, they're coming from a guy who's listened to recordings of every single performance. I have also heard a lot of them, and to be honest many bootlegs of DT's performances do not portray James in a very flattering way (and from that era, I would even change many to "most")
2. I've never heard MP say he wanted a new vocalist so DT could be heavier. I always have heard him say that he thought DT would have been better with more of a songwriter type singer, like H. from Marillion. This leads me to believe that maybe MP thought DT could have morphed into something more like Neal Morse or Flying Colors - still prog but with much more potential for "singles".
3. Yes, all that is pretty hypocritical coming from a guy who insisted his label forced him to be more commercial two album before James got his ultimatum.
[/quote]

1. That's one thing I'm a bit unclear about. When he said that, which era was it? I know James got the ultimatum a short time after the Six Degrees album came out, correct? But MP made that comment about hiring someone else, sometime later, right? ... And Images and words was recorded at Beartracks, right?

Otherwise, yes, I understand that JLB may not have been at his best around that era, but it's still a very obtuse hypothetical comment. I mean, IF they were looking for a new vocalist then, and they wouldn't hire JLB, that's assuming JLB wasn't already in the band, and then we could say, well, who knows how his own career would have evolved. Maybe if JLB had never joined DT, he would've put together his own band, become successful enough to be noticed, and developed into a song writer, and never even gotten food poisoning for that matter. How did something like that even come up, unless it was something that was consistently on MP's mind at the time? And to be dwelling on how they'd hire someone else, and then proceeding to just say it at an interview, seems almost intentionally hurtful and disrespectful.

2. Well, he didn't say so that DT could be heavier, I'm just interpolating from the fact that A. In his more recent times with DT, he seemed to have tried to push the band into a heavier direction. And B. heavier style, and heavier vocals are more popular in the grand scheme of Hard Rock/Metal these days. Aside from the most European of Power Metal bands, I don't hear many who still front a melodic, high register male vocalist.

Also, this may be a little biased, since I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a fan of the vast majority of MP's vocal contributions to DT, so I understand if it seems like I'm unjustly picking on MP, but honestly, I was listening to Score yesterday, and I mean, really listening to it, more analytically than usual, and I just couldn't help but notice all the times MP added his backup vocals where they really weren't needed or were a detriment. Like, there were parts where I think it would've been cool to hear JLB just do his thing, such as the whole "Trapped Inside this Octavarium" part, but MP is there saying it along with JLB in his typical balls and chunk heavy style, (as opposed to whispering the way it was on the album itself) as if he thought JLB wasn't enough to give that part justice.
Also, every time he did harmonies with JLB, where it's a long extended vowel, such as during one part of Raise The Knife, or The Answer Lies Within, I think it was, the "You're gonna shine" section, and this may be unintentional, but every time, MP drags his notes just that little bit longer than JLB, just milking it, as if upstaging JLB in a way, and I really think those little moments did a disservice to the performance. Not significant, mind you, but a disservice non the less. And again, maybe I'm just picking on him and overanalyzing it, but upon a closer analysis, that's honestly my only gripe with how Score sounds. But honestly, I wasn't even overanalyzing MP's parts on purpose, I just wanted to analyze the concert's sound overall. I just noticed MP doing that, it just stood out to me, like boom, there he is, all in your face with his backup vocals. So I started keeping an ear out for it. They might add an extra layer, but that's only good when it doesn't overstay its welcome, and to me, it did.

But anyway, this little rant aside, my point is that, to me, it honestly felt like MP was attempting to "Heavy Up" certain vocal parts with his backups, as if he thought that would make them better, so that was also a part of why I kind of interpolated him saying they'd hire someone else as meaning someone heavier. But yes, I could be wrong.

Either way, the more time passes, the happier I am with the band's current lineup.

And again, I'm not trying to rag on MP, I love MP, and I think overall he's an awesome guy and an awesome drummer, but a drummer is what he should have stayed. And if it seems like I'm picking on him, then it purely comes from me as a singer being devensive over JLB as a vocalist, who I think MP undermined in more ways than one over his latter years with DT.

TGP, MP made an infamous interview back in the day where he said he would rather choose a singer like Mike Patton if he had had the choice at the time of the interview.
Not sure whether you are aware of this.

No, I wasn't aware of that specifically. I'm not really familiar with Faith No More, so can you please elaborate on the point you're trying to make? Like, I don't know what Patton's vocal style is like, and I'm at work right now (yes yes, slacking off), so I can't listen to it, so I'm kind of unsure whether that supports of disproves my theory of it being someone heavier and more fashionable.

Also, can you imagine having two Mikes, both being MP, in the band?  :lol
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5421 on: October 28, 2014, 09:30:50 AM »
Whaaat, you don't know Mike Patton of Faith No More? That should be your first order of business, to catch up on that band. They don't have a lot of albums, but they're nothing short of brilliant.

Style-wise, Mike Patton is incredibly wide-ranged. He has a great, full-bodied singing voice, and at the same time can put a lot of edge into his vocals.
MP's choice of Mike Patton clearly indicated that he wanted DT to be more modern in its vocals, vs JLB who is more 80s.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline SystematicThought

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5422 on: October 28, 2014, 09:34:44 AM »
DT trying to do some Mr. Bungle style music would have been interesting to see
God have mercy on a man
Who doubts what he's sure of.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5423 on: October 28, 2014, 09:36:22 AM »
Unfortunately, I can see where MP was coming from. I've tried to introduce DT to plenty of people in the past, and each time I've found myself explaining away the vocals. Seems like James' vocals are a big hurdle for a lot of people, especially people like me who missed the 80's.

Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #5424 on: October 28, 2014, 09:40:56 AM »
Unfortunately, I can see where MP was coming from. I've tried to introduce DT to plenty of people in the past, and each time I've found myself explaining away the vocals. Seems like James' vocals are a big hurdle for a lot of people, especially people like me who missed the 80's.

 My wife cannot stand DT because of JLB´s vocals. She says that "they could be the greatest band on earth if they had someone like Bruce Dickinson singing with them".