Author Topic: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use  (Read 42069 times)

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Offline Orbert

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #175 on: August 29, 2013, 04:22:34 PM »
In Colorado and Washington.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #176 on: August 29, 2013, 04:23:54 PM »
Yea realized that after I posted, wishful thinking I guess.  But definitely a HUGE step in the right direction.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #177 on: August 29, 2013, 04:27:44 PM »
Lets all keep in mind this isn't the first time Obama's DOJ has said they'd leave the state sponsored stoners alone. As I recall it was one of his campaign promises, and the subsequent 5 years have been a legitimate reign of terror on legalized grass.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #178 on: September 01, 2013, 11:35:30 PM »
As expected, the other shoe. The Man has reserved the right to carry on exactly as he has in California. Eight key enforcement points which, while reasonable, leave tons of room for meddling.

Quote
    the distribution of marijuana to minors;

    revenue from the sale of marijuana from going to criminal enterprises, gangs and cartels;

    the diversion of marijuana from states where it is legal under state law in some form to other states;

    state-authorized marijuana activity from being used as a cover or pretext for the trafficking of other illegal drugs or other illegal activity;

    violence and the use of firearms in the cultivation and distribution of marijuana

    drugged driving and the exacerbation of other adverse public health consequences associated with marijuana use;

    growing of marijuana on public lands and the attendant public safety and environmental dangers posed by marijuana production on public lands;

    preventing marijuana possession or use on federal property.

Alas, the key to the memo is that if the DoJ deems the State's enforcement of these enforcement points inadequate, the DoJ will enforce them as they have all along. All Holder has done is to decide not to sue the states, a suit which was by no means guaranteed, while reserving the right to conduct it's own enforcement.

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For states such as Colorado and Washington that have enacted laws to authorize the production, distribution and possession of marijuana, the Department expects these states to establish strict regulatory schemes that protect the eight federal interests identified in the Department’s guidance. These schemes must be tough in practice, not just on paper, and include strong, state-based enforcement efforts, backed by adequate funding. Based on assurances that those states will impose an appropriately strict regulatory system, the Department has informed the governors of both states that it is deferring its right to challenge their legalization laws at this time.  But if any of the stated harms do materialize—either despite a strict regulatory scheme or because of the lack of one—federal prosecutors will act aggressively to bring individual prosecutions focused on federal enforcement priorities and the Department may challenge the regulatory scheme themselves in these states.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #179 on: September 02, 2013, 09:13:27 AM »
Honestly EB, I doubt they could do anything that would please you. As you say, the enforcement points are reasonable. I think it's quite the farce to say they've been waging war on legal weed since '08, considering the current state of legal weed. I just had a cousin move to Oakland, and one of the first things he said was there's a dispensary on like every street corner. If Holder is hell bent on ending legal weed, he's so incompetent that I wouldn't worry about it.

Wait.... environmental dangers caused by marijuana being grown? What exactly is that?

I'm guessing a Marijuana farm dumping hazardous fertilizers into a nearby stream or something. It's a stretch, but it could go as far as the energy efficiency of the building. No excessive carbon emissions, enviromentally friendly grow lights, etc...

This is on public lands, so no buildings, no grow lights, etc. They're talking about large scale operations on federal forest lands.

Since I made that comment, I learned that apparently Mexican Drug Cartels are doing the operations, and apparently they have a bad habit of starting some forest fires. That's a serious concern. There's some suspicion that the Yosemite fire was started by such.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #180 on: September 02, 2013, 11:44:32 AM »
Honestly EB, I doubt they could do anything that would please you. As you say, the enforcement points are reasonable. I think it's quite the farce to say they've been waging war on legal weed since '08, considering the current state of legal weed. I just had a cousin move to Oakland, and one of the first things he said was there's a dispensary on like every street corner. If Holder is hell bent on ending legal weed, he's so incompetent that I wouldn't worry about it.
All they'd have to do to appease me is to let the states deal with their own drug laws. And just because they're failing in their efforts doesn't mean that the DOJ isn't causing lots of problems using seriously heavy-handed tactics. Things like threatening landlords with the seizure of the properties if they're leased to people in the dispensary trade, or filing tax evasion charges against dispensary owners because they won't accept the customary buiseness deductions. They're also going after bankers who deal with dispensary money. Really, about the only role I can see Holder legitimately holding is enforcing the interstate commerce of it, and even that's probably best left to the states that still prohibit it.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #181 on: September 02, 2013, 01:56:32 PM »
I read an interesting article the other day that compared what's going on now with weed to the end of alcohol prohibition. It pointed out that the end of prohibition started with states disobeying the federal law, and the fed's letting the states do what they wanted. I think you're taking far too pessimistic of a view of what's going on, and ignoring the fact that Holder et al. could be doing much more to actually prevent what's going on from going on.


Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #182 on: September 02, 2013, 03:20:34 PM »
I have no idea what your point about prohibition is, so I'll disregard it for now. As for my POV, the fact that Holder could be doing more has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he's doing far more than either his predecessors or the campaign-induced bullshit of his boss. My problem isn't with the actual enforcement, which is probably far more beneficial to me than legalization would be, but the fact that Obama is a lying asshole who appointed a douchebag as AG. And even that's more about disappointment, as I genuinely thought that both Holder and Obama would be much, much better than they actually turned out to be.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #183 on: September 02, 2013, 06:19:30 PM »
From my research, I still haven't been able to find the widespread systemic attack on medical marijuana that you describe. I've found specific incidents that line up with what you've said, but usually there's criteria and case specific details that seem to get left out in other places I've seen the information reported.

My point about prohibition is that, despite all your glass-half-empty points, there's enough reasons to look at the glass as half full.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #184 on: September 02, 2013, 07:04:51 PM »
From my research, I still haven't been able to find the widespread systemic attack on medical marijuana that you describe. I've found specific incidents that line up with what you've said, but usually there's criteria and case specific details that seem to get left out in other places I've seen the information reported.
You seem to be in the minority there. It's pretty widely accepted and hard to dispute that the DOJ is trying quite hard to curtail legalized bud wherever it exists. As for the case specific criteria, what was the problem with Richard Lee and Oaksteram? They never even filed any charges against anybody. They showed up in tactical gear, pushed people around, took everything that wasn't bolted down and then disappeared with nary an explanation. It was nothing more than intimidation (and stunningly effective--the staff of 108 is now down to 15, with a similar decline in students all because of fear and uncertainty, despite doing nothing criminal whatsoever), and I don't see how such a tactic could be construed as anything but a widespread systemic attack.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #185 on: September 02, 2013, 09:20:07 PM »
From my research, I still haven't been able to find the widespread systemic attack on medical marijuana that you describe. I've found specific incidents that line up with what you've said, but usually there's criteria and case specific details that seem to get left out in other places I've seen the information reported.
You seem to be in the minority there. It's pretty widely accepted and hard to dispute that the DOJ is trying quite hard to curtail legalized bud wherever it exists. As for the case specific criteria, what was the problem with Richard Lee and Oaksteram? They never even filed any charges against anybody. They showed up in tactical gear, pushed people around, took everything that wasn't bolted down and then disappeared with nary an explanation. It was nothing more than intimidation (and stunningly effective--the staff of 108 is now down to 15, with a similar decline in students all because of fear and uncertainty, despite doing nothing criminal whatsoever), and I don't see how such a tactic could be construed as anything but a widespread systemic attack.

You're confusing the actions of US Attorneys with the DOJ and Holder. US Attorney's are supposed to be rather independent, and that's the way we want them.

It's pretty easy to construe what happened with Richard Lee as a legitimate distinction made by people between providing medicine to sick patients and the de facto legalization of marijuana. We both know that medical marijuana in California is a fucking farce, even if it technically abides by state laws. There's enough wiggle room between the two to say that just because there is 'medical' marijuana in California it doesn't follow that it's actually for medicinal purposes. It's a facade. It's not beyond reason to say that most of the raids performed on behalf of the local US Attorney's isn't targeting medical marijuana sales or operations, but rather targeting dispensaries and organizations that work to make weed essentially legal.

Basically, just because you call a cow a horse, doesn't make a cow a horse.

As for the IRS, I'd say they're just stuck in a rather shitty position. According to their guidelines, the sale and cultivation of marijuana is an illicit activity, so the appropriate tax code applies. I'd consider this an appropriate thing for any IRS official to do, as they're just doing their job.

The President just doesn't have the kind of power you want him to have in this case. He technically has the authority to go in a change the way some things are done and enforced, but it's rather unrealistic to think he actually is going to spend the time to do that. Should he replace any US Attorney who, on their on free will and fully within their legal domain, goes after a 'medical' marijuana dispensary? Even if they're extremely competent and qualified for the job? Should he spend time trying to lobby congress to change the tax code so that the IRS can't put companies in a catch-22? To me, this is just another example of where people have undue expectation of what a president can actually accomplish. We often ignore the institutional momentum and force that exists within a bureaucracy the size of the US's.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #186 on: September 02, 2013, 09:51:05 PM »
Independent, but not unsupervised or unguided. This is a top-down organization, with people setting priorities. Doper busting seems to be a priority, certainly more so than the previous outfit.

As for Lee and Oaksterdam, of course medicinal marijuana is a farce, but that has nothing to do with the bust. By all accounts they were completely above board. Busting them was a message job.  It's also hard not to notice that Lee was one of the primary activists supporting proposition whatthehellevertheycalledit.

And the IRS wasn't simply stuck in a shitty position. This was an orchestrated effort. Honestly, I can't believe you're even suggesting that.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #187 on: September 02, 2013, 10:28:13 PM »
Independent, but not unsupervised or unguided. This is a top-down organization, with people setting priorities. Doper busting seems to be a priority, certainly more so than the previous outfit.

Holder can tell them what they're priorities should be, but in the end, he can't tell them what to do and what not to do. And if they don't follow the priorities exactly, there's not a whole lot of recourse available to Holder. Every time I read about these incidents, it's usually mentioned that the actions were taken by the US Attorney's, and not a directive of the DOJ or Washington.

Dope is more prevalent than under the previous outfit, especially once they thought they were all in the clear. It's a false equivalency.

Quote
As for Lee and Oaksterdam, of course medicinal marijuana is a farce, but that has nothing to do with the bust. By all accounts they were completely above board. Busting them was a message job.  It's also hard not to notice that Lee was one of the primary activists supporting proposition whatthehellevertheycalledit.

And the US Attorney said it was his call, based upon local law enforcement and officials requests. Not the DOJ waging a war on legal pot. Also, the fact that Lee was a primary activist clouds the fact that he was also heavily involved in the industry; they were a large, easy target, one that very questionably supplies "medical" marijuana. The fact that he was such a staunch supporter of that proposition only bolsters that argument.

Remember, I'm not supporting the actions taken, far from it; all I'm doing is objecting to where you lay the blame. I think where you lay the blame is unproductive, and doesn't do anything to solve the problem of marijuana being in illicit drug.

Quote
And the IRS wasn't simply stuck in a shitty position. This was an orchestrated effort. Honestly, I can't believe you're even suggesting that.

Shitty position is probably the wrong wording, because that implies they didn't want to do what they did. But basically, they were aptly applying the tax code, and it's ridiculous to say that a bunch of pen-pushers in the IRS following the tax code is some orchestrated effort to shut down the legal pot market. Operating costs from federally illicit activities are not allowed to be tax deductible. Marijuana production and sale is illicit under federal law. It directly follows from this that marijuana productions costs are not tax deductible. It's the completely rational and logical conclusion of the law, and that's what I would expect IRS employees to do.

Offline Chino

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #188 on: September 03, 2013, 03:40:50 PM »
Serious question (mainly mods and BosK)...

How does DTF now view (in regards to the rules) the discussion of Marijuana? I feel enforcement has gotten a little bit more relaxed over the years, and jokes and references about marijuana happen all the time.

I only ask because we have the smokers poll in the GD. I was thinking to myself what the results would have been if the poll in question was about pot and not cigs. If I were to make a related poll/thread, would that still be considered breaking the rules??

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #189 on: September 03, 2013, 06:24:28 PM »
Yeah, probably.  It's not legal everywhere.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #190 on: September 04, 2013, 02:36:01 PM »
I think we can talk about it here because its a political issue.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #191 on: October 08, 2013, 01:24:10 PM »
Very surprising results out of Texas.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/08/texas-legalize-marijuana_n_4064808.html

"Public Policy Polling found that 58 percent of Texans "support making marijuana legal for adults and regulating it like alcohol." Even more -- 61 percent -- were in favor of decriminalizing marijuana possession and instead punishing violations with a civil citation."

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #192 on: October 08, 2013, 01:34:02 PM »
Not surprising at all. It's just that most people still hold onto the stereotypical view of Texans as dimwitted, gun-toting rednecks.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #193 on: October 08, 2013, 01:38:07 PM »
Not surprising at all. It's just that most people still hold onto the stereotypical view of Texans as dimwitted, gun-toting rednecks.

No offense, but that's the image you paint in my mind (not you personally, but your state  :lol).

Offline Orbert

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #194 on: October 08, 2013, 01:42:08 PM »
Kinda surprising, kinda not.

Many Texans carry guns, and for a lot of people, guns = NRA = Republicans = conservative, but it's not nearly that simple.  I see it as letting individuals do what they want as long as it's not hurting anyone.  In that sense, carrying a gun and smoking pot are both fine if done responsibly, much like drinking alcohol.  It's not strictly a liberal/conservative or Republican/Democrat issue.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #195 on: October 08, 2013, 01:43:15 PM »
Not surprising at all. It's just that most people still hold onto the stereotypical view of Texans as dimwitted, gun-toting rednecks.

No offense, but that's the image you paint in my mind (not you personally, but your state  :lol).
Oh, I certainly understand that. It's just that the loud and crazy fucks get all of the attention. Despite being the majority, the sane ones aren't particularly newsworthy.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #196 on: October 08, 2013, 01:49:52 PM »
Very surprising results out of Texas.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/08/texas-legalize-marijuana_n_4064808.html

"Public Policy Polling found that 58 percent of Texans "support making marijuana legal for adults and regulating it like alcohol." Even more -- 61 percent -- were in favor of decriminalizing marijuana possession and instead punishing violations with a civil citation."

Personally, I think it should be legal everywhere. It's not as if we are going to corrupt a whole new generation into a bunch of potheads. They'll smoke if whether or not they want to.  I've never smoked it (but don't think I haven't thought about it), but to me it's not a big deal if people do.

Offline Rathma

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #197 on: October 08, 2013, 11:26:09 PM »
Yeah, probably.  It's not legal everywhere.

Neither is alcohol. Or gay sex.

Offline Chino

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #198 on: October 09, 2013, 12:48:34 PM »
Yeah, probably.  It's not legal everywhere.

Neither is alcohol. Or gay sex.

Good point.

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #199 on: October 09, 2013, 01:06:41 PM »
Yeah, probably.  It's not legal everywhere.

Neither is alcohol. Or gay sex.

Good point.

Seeing that gay sex and alcohol aren't legal everywhere makes my stance of the death penalty seem less ignorant.   :lol

Offline Chino

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #200 on: November 06, 2013, 06:54:02 AM »
Hooray for Portland, Maine.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #201 on: November 20, 2013, 10:25:21 AM »





=====================================================================================


Guy really likes his work, apparently  :hat

Offline cramx3

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #202 on: November 20, 2013, 04:07:35 PM »
I got to think most people who openly support and fight for MJ rights use it as well.

Offline Chino

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #203 on: November 20, 2013, 04:31:06 PM »
I got to think most people who openly support and fight for MJ rights use it as well.

If you've got five minutes, this is a great watch. Penn addresses exactly what you mentioned. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZiuMBpdzlQ

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #204 on: November 20, 2013, 04:59:27 PM »
His co-host was dead on. "Maybe a little blow" is exactly what honest to God potheads say.  :lol

And Obama was a legendary stoner. By most accounts he was the biggest pothead in Hawaii when he was in school.

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #205 on: November 22, 2013, 12:37:02 PM »
That's actually one of the things I like about the guy  :lol

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #206 on: November 22, 2013, 12:57:04 PM »
That's actually one of the things I like about the guy  :lol
Agreed. The fact that he was at least at one point a real human being is one of the reasons I supported him early on. It's just annoying that he turned into such an asshole about it all.
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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #207 on: November 22, 2013, 03:14:33 PM »
Yeah, I've got buyer's remorse on quite a few fronts with him.  Marijuana policy being a big one. 


Then again, maybe he'll "evolve" on it the way he did on gay marriage.


I'm only slightly delusional for thinking that  :P

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #208 on: November 22, 2013, 05:02:56 PM »
I don't think you can really assess what Obama truly thinks based upon his political stances. And frankly, given the environment we live in, it would be completely unconstructive for him to pursue decriminalization. It's nice to think that people should be elected to office and take really hardline stances, but I think it's unrealistic. President's almost always govern from the center, and I think there are structural reasons for that.

I mean, just imagine the response if Obama put forward a plan to decriminilize Marijuana federally. Yes, there would be a huge upwelling of support. But there would be a more massive upwelling of hatred and racism. Oh, the first black President wants to decriminlize Marijuana? Of course he does! It would start a battle over an issue that likely wouldn't be won with the Congress we have today, and it would accomplish absolutely nothing.


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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #209 on: November 22, 2013, 05:13:46 PM »
Well given the current state, it would be absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe if he could roll in medical marijuana into the ACA it would ease the pain.