Author Topic: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use  (Read 42967 times)

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Offline Tick

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2012, 05:38:25 AM »
Pat Roberson endorsing legal pot

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/08/us/pat-robertson-backs-legalizing-marijuana.html?_r=1&
Dude would certainly benefit from smoking some, but he claims to have no interest.  Shame.
Oh please, you know damn well he is stoned and has been for years.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #106 on: November 13, 2012, 05:48:33 AM »
Penn Jillete's view. This is a really awesome video. Please hear him out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWWOJGYZYpk&sns=em
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 09:53:07 AM by Chino »

Offline Tick

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #107 on: November 13, 2012, 06:18:16 AM »
Penn Jillete's view. This is an really awesome video. Please hear him out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWWOJGYZYpk&sns=em
He makes a lot of sense. The number of 1 in 6 people in prison for marijuana is mind blowing. I would like to know if we are talking about only dealers or caught pot smokers in general.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #108 on: November 13, 2012, 07:38:19 AM »
As a pot smoker, and being engaged to someone who hates that I do it, mostly because its illegal.  I've been telling her that once our generation comes into power in the country (im 28), marijuana would be legal because our generation was not tricked into thinking it was a gateway drug and it was some terrible substance (well they tried to, and some believe so, but there are waayyy more people who can call out the bs). It seems, and I hope so, that we are on that path. I've also noticed a lot more of the older generation coming around to this.  Not that they want to smoke it, but that they realize it's not so bad as they thought and that it actually can be very good for the economy.  I really hope the AG doesn't stick his head into this and at least allows the two states to test this and see what happens.

That's pretty much my thinking as well.  It always seemed to me that when our generation grew up and managed to get some people into the legislature, things would change.  The problem of course is that stoners are generally not the type to run for public office.  And there's the added complication that if you do run for public office, there's always the chance that you'll be "outed" somewhere along the way as a stoner, possibly ending your political career.  If something's currently illegal, it's hard to get into a position to change that if you partake in it.  Catch-22.  It would have to be people with the drive for office who also happened to have found pot to be okay along the way, whether or not they smoke (or still smoke).

I've never understood all the people who are against it simply because it's illegal.  No moral objection, no personal feeling that it's "wrong" other than that it's against the law.  Okay, I guess I do understand it, but it seems hypocritical.  Speeding is against the law; do these people never go even 2 mph over the speed limit?  Jaywalking is against the law; have they never dashed across the street to get to their car, or parked across the street from a store and not crossed at the corner?  They'll do that, but some guy sitting at home smoking a joint is a criminal?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #109 on: November 13, 2012, 08:26:34 AM »
Penn Jillete's view. This is an really awesome video. Please hear him out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWWOJGYZYpk&sns=em
He makes a lot of sense. The number of 1 in 6 people in prison for marijuana is mind blowing. I would like to know if we are talking about only dealers or caught pot smokers in general.
Don't have any numbers, but I suspect the majority of them are probation violators for failed piss-tests.  Kind of a grey area, really.  I have a friend that did a year because of that.  Her PO neglected to point out that she failed a test, and because she had taken precautions, she assumed she passed it.  This scenario continued for a year or two, at which point they showed up with a court order describing dozens of failed UA's and hauled her ass off. 

I say it's a grey area because it's hard to blame that on the dope.  It was her own fault, really.  I give people several strikes when it comes to bud, but this was a situation of her own creation.  If the initial crime that led her to be on probation was grass-related, I'd cut her more slack (although it was just as silly). 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #110 on: November 13, 2012, 08:51:42 AM »
One of here biggest problems is how unfairly the law is applied. If your black, you are much more likely to land in jail for the same offense that gets a white person community service. The laws are a way for cops to fuck who they don't like.


Aren't half of our prison population in jail for non violent crimes? Meth and such? 

Offline Tick

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #111 on: November 13, 2012, 09:46:05 AM »
Penn Jillete's view. This is an really awesome video. Please hear him out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWWOJGYZYpk&sns=em
He makes a lot of sense. The number of 1 in 6 people in prison for marijuana is mind blowing. I would like to know if we are talking about only dealers or caught pot smokers in general.
Don't have any numbers, but I suspect the majority of them are probation violators for failed piss-tests.  Kind of a grey area, really.  I have a friend that did a year because of that.  Her PO neglected to point out that she failed a test, and because she had taken precautions, she assumed she passed it.  This scenario continued for a year or two, at which point they showed up with a court order describing dozens of failed UA's and hauled her ass off. 

I say it's a grey area because it's hard to blame that on the dope.  It was her own fault, really.  I give people several strikes when it comes to bud, but this was a situation of her own creation.  If the initial crime that led her to be on probation was grass-related, I'd cut her more slack (although it was just as silly).
Now that to me is disturbing. It would seem to me, and I'm really an idiot when it comes to these things but if we weren't  spending the amount of money its costs to jail people for dumb ass offenses like smoking weed we would be in better shape.
Just the way that all went down is disturbing as well.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #112 on: November 13, 2012, 09:53:20 AM »
That's why the backlash against the "war on drugs" is gaining steam.  We're spending a lot of time, money, and human resources on it, we're losing anyway, and the only thing that happens is the "wrong" people end up in jail.  Somehow, there are still people who feel that people smoking dope is a bigger threat than murderers, thieves, and rapists.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #113 on: November 13, 2012, 09:59:43 AM »
Penn Jillete's view. This is an really awesome video. Please hear him out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWWOJGYZYpk&sns=em
He makes a lot of sense. The number of 1 in 6 people in prison for marijuana is mind blowing. I would like to know if we are talking about only dealers or caught pot smokers in general.
Don't have any numbers, but I suspect the majority of them are probation violators for failed piss-tests.  Kind of a grey area, really.  I have a friend that did a year because of that.  Her PO neglected to point out that she failed a test, and because she had taken precautions, she assumed she passed it.  This scenario continued for a year or two, at which point they showed up with a court order describing dozens of failed UA's and hauled her ass off. 

I say it's a grey area because it's hard to blame that on the dope.  It was her own fault, really.  I give people several strikes when it comes to bud, but this was a situation of her own creation.  If the initial crime that led her to be on probation was grass-related, I'd cut her more slack (although it was just as silly).
Now that to me is disturbing. It would seem to me, and I'm really an idiot when it comes to these things but if we weren't  spending the amount of money its costs to jail people for dumb ass offenses like smoking weed we would be in better shape.
Just the way that all went down is disturbing as well.
Well, yeah, but at the same time it's not necessarily the dope that people are jailed for in that scenario.  Technically, it's the first crime committed.  In her case, she was handed something like 6 years probation which meant that she was off the hook pending good behavior.  She didn't behave.  I'd say that the biggest flaw here would have been making pot a violation of probation, but for that matter, tons of people on probation can't even drink.
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2012, 02:12:54 PM »
One of here biggest problems is how unfairly the law is applied. If your black, you are much more likely to land in jail for the same offense that gets a white person community service. The laws are a way for cops to fuck who they don't like.
I recall during one of the Republican debates where Ron Paul had said that 13-14% of drug users are black whereas 37% of the people in prison for drugs are black. Using those numbers they are over-represented by 165-170%

Aren't half of our prison population in jail for non violent crimes? Meth and such?
Washington State ran out of its alloted budget for dental work due to the number of meth addicts. They literally had no money left to use for regular checkups/cleanings because of the number of massive surgeries they had to perform for the meth-heads.

And if we spend money on getting people treated for the addiction instead of throwing them in prison, they likely avoid getting to that point.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2012, 02:36:05 PM »
One of here biggest problems is how unfairly the law is applied. If your black, you are much more likely to land in jail for the same offense that gets a white person community service. The laws are a way for cops to fuck who they don't like.
I recall during one of the Republican debates where Ron Paul had said that 13-14% of drug users are black whereas 37% of the people in prison for drugs are black. Using those numbers they are over-represented by 165-170%
Yeah, but that stat is likely highly skewed because of the crack disparity.  I'd be curious if it's even close to that for other drugs, and I highly doubt that applies to grass.  Honestly, in most states potheads don't go to prison.  While I have no doubt that the drug laws are designed to go after black folk, I don't think pot is really a part of that.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #116 on: November 13, 2012, 02:45:08 PM »
One of here biggest problems is how unfairly the law is applied. If your black, you are much more likely to land in jail for the same offense that gets a white person community service. The laws are a way for cops to fuck who they don't like.
I recall during one of the Republican debates where Ron Paul had said that 13-14% of drug users are black whereas 37% of the people in prison for drugs are black. Using those numbers they are over-represented by 165-170%
Yeah, but that stat is likely highly skewed because of the crack disparity.  I'd be curious if it's even close to that for other drugs, and I highly doubt that applies to grass.  Honestly, in most states potheads don't go to prison.  While I have no doubt that the drug laws are designed to go after black folk, I don't think pot is really a part of that.

You will rarely get prison in CT, but there are arrest all the time. Still makes you look like shit to an employer.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #117 on: November 13, 2012, 03:30:41 PM »
One of here biggest problems is how unfairly the law is applied. If your black, you are much more likely to land in jail for the same offense that gets a white person community service. The laws are a way for cops to fuck who they don't like.
I recall during one of the Republican debates where Ron Paul had said that 13-14% of drug users are black whereas 37% of the people in prison for drugs are black. Using those numbers they are over-represented by 165-170%
Yeah, but that stat is likely highly skewed because of the crack disparity.  I'd be curious if it's even close to that for other drugs, and I highly doubt that applies to grass.  Honestly, in most states potheads don't go to prison.  While I have no doubt that the drug laws are designed to go after black folk, I don't think pot is really a part of that.

You will rarely get prison in CT, but there are arrest all the time. Still makes you look like shit to an employer.
That's the case in most states.  Very few of them put potheads in prison.  Even in places like Arizona, it's mainly the poor folk who go to prison.  They only want to send you away if you can't pony up a big wad of cash.  I have an acquaintance who recently found out how that works out there.  That's probably as big a factor as any in the racial disparity.  Quality of defense and ability to pay a big-ass fine. 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #118 on: November 13, 2012, 07:46:19 PM »
I've seen a former law officer make this argument against the war on drugs twice nice, just saw it again, and I think it's one that is often overlooked (becuase there's so many reasons why the war on drugs is a bad policy)

The War on Drugs antagonizes the police and communities. Say someone is the victim of a crime, but is addicted to drugs: they're then much less likely to report that crime, and that crime is less likely to get addressed. It increases the danger for law enforcement officials, and people are more afraid of dealing with the police to give them information and leads that might lead to the resolve of a crime.


Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #119 on: November 13, 2012, 08:20:04 PM »
The cops over at O.com tend to split on the subject of pot.  They're all opposed to legalizing hard drugs.  Sadly, none of them partake.  Shitload of alcoholics, but no stoners in the LEA ranks.  If anything it should be the other way around, frankly. 
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #120 on: November 13, 2012, 08:35:52 PM »
I know someone who's father is a cop and I asked him what his dad thinks about weed and he said its illegal and he's a cop so he doesn't do it but he can't wait to retire to try it.

Offline Chino

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #121 on: November 14, 2012, 08:05:15 AM »
I know someone who's father is a cop and I asked him what his dad thinks about weed and he said its illegal and he's a cop so he doesn't do it but he can't wait to retire to try it.

The real question is, does he bust people for it?

Offline cramx3

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #122 on: November 14, 2012, 10:37:58 AM »
I dont know, but I would say probably as it is his job.  I cant fault people for doing thier job. The town he polices, which is where I am from, I know my brother got pulled over twice with marijuana in his car and both times, the cops let him go just saying to not smoke and drive, and only use it in your home.  However, my home town is a well off white dominated town so maybe that is why they are lenient  ;)

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #123 on: November 14, 2012, 11:34:04 AM »
Enforcement is pretty discretionary.  Despite it's illegality, cities and departments often have their own policies.  There's also Johnny's willingness to go through the hassle of arresting you.  If you're a dick you'll always go to jail.  If a department has a zero tolerance policy, you'll always go to jail.  Otherwise, it's the copper's mood that determines whether you get hooked up or not.
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #124 on: November 14, 2012, 12:10:39 PM »
A department zero-tolerance policy also is meaningless, because who's going to turn in the cop for letting you off with a warning if no one else even knows of the incident?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #125 on: November 14, 2012, 03:18:51 PM »
A department zero-tolerance policy also is meaningless, because who's going to turn in the cop for letting you off with a warning if no one else even knows of the incident?
Officer dash-cam. 
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2012, 03:23:00 PM »
That's still iffy.  A cop can pull you over for some minor moving violation, and choose to either give you a ticket or just a warning.  5 mph over the limit, not using a turn signal, etc.  If he smells marijuana when you roll down the window, and the department has a zero-tolerance policy, he's mandated to write you up and/or haul you in.  But a dash-cam can't record the smell of marijuana.  Unless someone's waving a joint or a pipe around on camera, it's just a traffic stop.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #127 on: November 14, 2012, 03:47:22 PM »
No cop is going to flat out ignore it if your car reeks.  Ever.  He might not bust you for it, but he's still going to poke around.  Even something as trivial as a roach in the ashtray is going to result in a bunch of questions and a search.  The roach might not be worth dealing with (usually isn't), but the QP that it came form, the gun in the glove box or the dismembered whore in the trunk are all worth his time and the roach just gave him the opportunity to look for all three.  At this point, you've got a report to enter and a recording of the goings on. 
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #128 on: November 14, 2012, 03:50:30 PM »
Right, but it wasn't the presence of the dash-cam which required him to do all that, it was the zero-tolerance policy.

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #129 on: November 22, 2012, 03:39:09 AM »
One of here biggest problems is how unfairly the law is applied. If your black, you are much more likely to land in jail for the same offense that gets a white person community service. The laws are a way for cops to fuck who they don't like.
I recall during one of the Republican debates where Ron Paul had said that 13-14% of drug users are black whereas 37% of the people in prison for drugs are black. Using those numbers they are over-represented by 165-170%
I'm not saying that the system is fair or anything but I would just like to point out that you're doing bad statistics. If 14% drug users are black and 37% of the people in prison for drugs are black, that does not necessarily mean that there is an unfair justice system.

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #130 on: November 22, 2012, 08:58:56 AM »
One of here biggest problems is how unfairly the law is applied. If your black, you are much more likely to land in jail for the same offense that gets a white person community service. The laws are a way for cops to fuck who they don't like.
I recall during one of the Republican debates where Ron Paul had said that 13-14% of drug users are black whereas 37% of the people in prison for drugs are black. Using those numbers they are over-represented by 165-170%
I'm not saying that the system is fair or anything but I would just like to point out that you're doing bad statistics. If 14% drug users are black and 37% of the people in prison for drugs are black, that does not necessarily mean that there is an unfair justice system.

From a purely statisticians perspective, I agree with you. It could be seen as post facto. But, when the proof of a thing is independently so, it does see okay to me to use this stat as a demonstration of how bad the system is.


Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #131 on: November 22, 2012, 10:09:16 AM »
As we all know, I think prosecutors are some of the most vile people on Earth, but I don't think they intentionally seek to imprison all black people while letting the white folks off the hook.  There are a ton of factors at play here, and overt racism, while certainly a real thing, isn't a very big one. 

Consider that poor and minority neighborhoods are generally subject to proactive (as opposed to reactive) policing.  More arrests right off the bat. Then factor in that in those neighborhoods there are more likely to be aggravating factors involved.  Gang membership.  Gun possession.  A general (and quite reasonable, IMO) distrust of cops that could lead to a more adversarial encounter.  A greater likelihood to be a repeat offender, which leads to MMS (where the for-profit prisons really hit the jackpot).  Most importantly, the number of people who sit it out in county until a freshoutofcollege public defender shows up to recommend a plea bargain because they don't care, don't have the time, and don't know any better.  People with means Call Saul and either fight their case and win, or take a much better deal because Mr. Scumbag DA doesn't care enough to take on a real fight.

I think the issue is more about the CJ system as a whole than the way drug laws are applied (again, excluding crack laws).  People are looking at things in terms of race, and I suspect if you looked at things from the wealth perspective you'd see a much better sampling. 
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #132 on: November 22, 2012, 10:38:26 AM »
The problem with using statistics like that is that you're only getting part of the story, the part that someone wants you to see so they can make their point.

So 14% of drug users are black, and 37% of people in prison for drugs are black.  This would seem to indicate that the system is unfairly victimizing blacks or however you want to phrase.

But suppose it turns out that 20% of drug users are white, and 50% of people in prison for drugs are white.  Not likely, but not ruled out by the first set of stats, either.

Maybe 5% of drug users are Hispanic and 60% of people in prison for drugs are Hispanic.

You can hide all kinds of things, and make the one thing you're upset about look worse, when you only give half the story.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #133 on: November 22, 2012, 12:45:32 PM »
As we all know, I think prosecutors are some of the most vile people on Earth, but I don't think they intentionally seek to imprison all black people while letting the white folks off the hook.  There are a ton of factors at play here, and overt racism, while certainly a real thing, isn't a very big one. 

Consider that poor and minority neighborhoods are generally subject to proactive (as opposed to reactive) policing.  More arrests right off the bat. Then factor in that in those neighborhoods there are more likely to be aggravating factors involved.  Gang membership.  Gun possession.  A general (and quite reasonable, IMO) distrust of cops that could lead to a more adversarial encounter.  A greater likelihood to be a repeat offender, which leads to MMS (where the for-profit prisons really hit the jackpot).  Most importantly, the number of people who sit it out in county until a freshoutofcollege public defender shows up to recommend a plea bargain because they don't care, don't have the time, and don't know any better.  People with means Call Saul and either fight their case and win, or take a much better deal because Mr. Scumbag DA doesn't care enough to take on a real fight.

I think the issue is more about the CJ system as a whole than the way drug laws are applied (again, excluding crack laws).  People are looking at things in terms of race, and I suspect if you looked at things from the wealth perspective you'd see a much better sampling.

It doesn't have to be an overt attitude to fuck black people over. Racism can simply mean that a judge takes a more disfavorable opinion of the black guy over a white guy, or the DA does the same. Nothing to say he can't respond in the same way to a white person, but if he does it just slightly more often for black people (and here we're talking about basically an unconscious action) than that has an impact. While I think it's fair to bring up the issue of poverty, and I think poverty and wealth is certainly something that is wrong with our legal system, at some point, you have to ask the question as to why blacks and minorities are usually poorer - and in that, I think you'd find a vicious pattern, enough so that it becomes hard to make a good historical distinction.




Offline antigoon

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #134 on: November 22, 2012, 04:33:35 PM »
So I take it you're not a fan of the plea bargaining system, EB?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #135 on: November 22, 2012, 06:46:54 PM »
So I take it you're not a fan of the plea bargaining system, EB?
I'm fine with plea bargaining.  I just think you're going to get a much better deal with a real attorney than a public defender, and that's largely a function of affluence.

I have an amigo that got caught doing something very stupid in Arizona a couple of months back.  Public defender couldn't get his bail reduced and suggested a plea for 5 years.  A few grand to a good attorney got him out on PR and assurances of probation and a big-ass fine for what he did.  One's a bargain and one's an ass raping.  By the time it's all said and done, avoiding Sheriff Joe's country club is going to cost him well over ten grand, which is something a good chunk of criminals can't or won't do. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #136 on: November 22, 2012, 07:15:11 PM »
I'm not sure it will always shake out like that (or even most of the time), but I agree that the incentives to just go ahead with whatever plea on the PD's side are probably too high. Most of their caseloads are enormous.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #137 on: November 23, 2012, 04:08:04 AM »
I think the issue is more about the CJ system as a whole than the way drug laws are applied (again, excluding crack laws).  People are looking at things in terms of race, and I suspect if you looked at things from the wealth perspective you'd see a much better sampling.
This exactly.  The problem is systemic, not individual.

All of our major problems are systemic.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #138 on: December 06, 2012, 05:44:41 PM »
Its officially legal today in Washington.  Congrats Washington natives and enjoy.  :tup

Offline slycordinator

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Re: Amendment 64 Passes: Colorado Legalizes Marijuana For Recreational Use
« Reply #139 on: December 08, 2012, 10:41:25 AM »
One Seattle bar is trying to beat the competition by officially advertising that they allow pot smoking inside. Someone might want to explain to the owner why restaurants/bars in Washington haven't had "smoking sections" for many years. Idiot.