Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 76858 times)

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1925 on: June 24, 2018, 12:20:09 PM »
It wasn't a slam on you. I was a compliment. You are usually spot on with how these cases end up
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Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1926 on: June 24, 2018, 01:21:23 PM »
It wasn't a slam on you. I was a compliment. You are usually spot on with how these cases end up
Oh, sorry. It looked sarcastic as all fuck.

And believe it or not, until more facts come out my hunch is with it being justified. Truth be told, that's my usual starting place.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1927 on: June 24, 2018, 01:34:55 PM »
It was early when I typed that. You usually interpret these situations precisely, and I was just rolling out the carpet for you to come in and do so as you usually do  :)
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Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1928 on: June 24, 2018, 01:50:12 PM »
After reading the accounts it's going to be a pretty typical deal. In this case Johnny probably was legally justified but the shooting was wholly unnecessary. Of course none of that makes any difference. Johnny can shoot damn near anybody he wants.

This is the second such case to come up in the last few days. Another fleeing suspect was shot in Penn and it'll likely be the same thing. Legally justified, unnecessary, and indicative of the new reality. A cop over at O.com summed it up perfectly:

Quote
Today, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Seventy2002 View Post
This is what Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985) is all about.
Yup. People have a hard time understanding this and the fact that an officer is not just responsible for protecting his own life but the general public as well.

They had probable cause to believe that shots were fired from this vehicle moments earlier and had no way of knowing if the kid who fled the scene was armed. Had he ran into a house and taken people hostage people would ask why he didn't shoot the kid when he had the chance.

Or, what if this was a school shooting and the perp was running away and they didn't know whether he was still armed? They'd be derelict in their duties not to shoot him.

The underlying facts will matter as no two cases are alike. But I am hearing many facts that favor the officer.
All emphasis mine.

You don't shoot somebody based on "what ifs." Garner says you can shoot a fleeing suspect if he poses a threat to you or to the general public. In the new reality you can shoot a fleeing suspect if he might pose a threat to somebody. This is not good.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1929 on: June 26, 2018, 06:37:47 AM »
I know this probably oversimplifies the discussion but if you don't want to get shot by the cops don't run.

Offline Adami

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1930 on: June 26, 2018, 06:40:26 AM »
And what if they start shooting if you talk back rudely? And what if they start shooting if you question them?

Do we start saying “if you don’t want to get shot, don’t talk back to or question the police”?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1931 on: June 26, 2018, 07:07:25 AM »
And what if they start shooting if you talk back rudely? And what if they start shooting if you question them?

Do we start saying “if you don’t want to get shot, don’t talk back to or question the police”?

Uh, yeah, maybe.   Change happens in multiple ways.   You have the problem of cops shooting at people who pose a danger, but with the flipside of... they pose a danger.   The  cops have every incentive to make sure they come home after a shift.   Maybe we swing a little further in the other direction, and let the lawyers deal with the run on cases, the run on public defenders, the crowded courts, and we look at ways of clearing these out at the street level.   The criminal justice system is not just the police.  (And  yes, I'm aware that there is a sector of our society is convinced beyond reason that our courts are just a biased against the black man as the police are, but as el Barto said, you don't go off "what ifs?".   There are at least checks and balances in the criminal justice system, and no one - that I know - gets shot for a guilty verdict.   I will add that in my experience - on an almost all-white jury with a black defendant accused of crack dealing and hiding his weapons, money and supply in his child's school backpack, the jury members bent over BACKWARD to avoid the perception of racism, and in fact let him walk, wrongly in my opinion.) 

Offline chknptpie

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1932 on: June 26, 2018, 07:25:00 AM »
I know this probably oversimplifies the discussion but if you don't want to get shot by the cops don't run.

How is getting killed an acceptable consequence for running from the law?

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1933 on: June 26, 2018, 07:54:09 AM »
I know this probably oversimplifies the discussion but if you don't want to get shot by the cops don't run.

How is getting killed an acceptable consequence for running from the law?

I didn't say it was. My point is don't put yourself in the situation in the first place.

Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1934 on: June 26, 2018, 08:18:21 AM »
Interestingly enough, running from the police is not in and of itself a crime. Shooting a man in the back almost always is. Neat how our society treats those two applications of the law.

Also, after seeing a couple of recent examples, I don't think running hurts your chances of surviving the encounter any more than obeying every order you're told.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1935 on: June 26, 2018, 09:11:47 AM »
And what if they start shooting if you talk back rudely? And what if they start shooting if you question them?

Do we start saying “if you don’t want to get shot, don’t talk back to or question the police”?

Uh, yeah, maybe.   Change happens in multiple ways.   You have the problem of cops shooting at people who pose a danger, but with the flipside of... they pose a danger.   The  cops have every incentive to make sure they come home after a shift.   Maybe we swing a little further in the other direction, and let the lawyers deal with the run on cases, the run on public defenders, the crowded courts, and we look at ways of clearing these out at the street level.   The criminal justice system is not just the police.  (And  yes, I'm aware that there is a sector of our society is convinced beyond reason that our courts are just a biased against the black man as the police are, but as el Barto said, you don't go off "what ifs?".   There are at least checks and balances in the criminal justice system, and no one - that I know - gets shot for a guilty verdict.   I will add that in my experience - on an almost all-white jury with a black defendant accused of crack dealing and hiding his weapons, money and supply in his child's school backpack, the jury members bent over BACKWARD to avoid the perception of racism, and in fact let him walk, wrongly in my opinion.)

None of that had anything to do with what I asked other than “uh yea maybe”.
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Offline chknptpie

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1936 on: June 26, 2018, 12:55:24 PM »
I know this probably oversimplifies the discussion but if you don't want to get shot by the cops don't run.

How is getting killed an acceptable consequence for running from the law?

I didn't say it was. My point is don't put yourself in the situation in the first place.

I guess my opinion would be that the responsibility lies with the person who holds the gun, not the one running the opposite direction.

Offline sylvan

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1937 on: June 26, 2018, 01:08:26 PM »
I know this probably oversimplifies the discussion but if you don't want to get shot by the cops don't run.

How is getting killed an acceptable consequence for running from the law?

I didn't say it was. My point is don't put yourself in the situation in the first place.

I guess my opinion would be that the responsibility lies with the person who holds the gun, not the one running the opposite direction.

I guess my opinion would be, especially given the current state of "things", that running from the police is a REALLY bad idea (depending on the circumstances, as Barto pointed out). The RESPONSIBILITY of the guy holding the gun is to the safety of the general public (and apparently more importantly, themselves). None of this is happening in a vacuum...

Offline chknptpie

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1938 on: June 26, 2018, 02:53:43 PM »

I guess my opinion would be, especially given the current state of "things", that running from the police is a REALLY bad idea (depending on the circumstances, as Barto pointed out). The RESPONSIBILITY of the guy holding the gun is to the safety of the general public (and apparently more importantly, themselves). None of this is happening in a vacuum...

Isn't the person running from the officer part of the general public? Isn't the officer  responsible for that person's safety? Why is there a difference?

Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1939 on: June 26, 2018, 02:57:16 PM »

I guess my opinion would be, especially given the current state of "things", that running from the police is a REALLY bad idea (depending on the circumstances, as Barto pointed out). The RESPONSIBILITY of the guy holding the gun is to the safety of the general public (and apparently more importantly, themselves). None of this is happening in a vacuum...

Isn't the person running from the officer part of the general public? Isn't the officer  responsible for that person's safety? Why is there a difference?
DING DING DING. Give this woman a cigar.
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Offline sylvan

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1940 on: June 26, 2018, 03:43:01 PM »
As Barto said, the police came to the conclusion that he posed a threat to the GREATER general public. I don't necessarily like that they're able to make that decision, but given the information they had, where do we draw the line at what's "reasonable"? This isn't a guy sitting in a passenger seat, obeying officer's orders, suddenly full of bullets.

(P.S. I hate Hate HATE the "brotherhood" and shitty dickholes with badges, but acknowledge that they're not all bad)

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1941 on: June 26, 2018, 03:57:16 PM »
As Barto said, the police came to the conclusion that he posed a threat to the GREATER general public. I don't necessarily like that they're able to make that decision, but given the information they had, where do we draw the line at what's "reasonable"? This isn't a guy sitting in a passenger seat, obeying officer's orders, suddenly full of bullets.

(P.S. I hate Hate HATE the "brotherhood" and shitty dickholes with badges, but acknowledge that they're not all bad)
Which one are we talking about here? Penn or Minn? You've got two dead fleeing suspects in the news right now. And in both cases I'm pretty adamant that you err on the side of no corpses. That's where I draw the line. Until somebody is an immediate threat he's still a suspect deserving of due process. Whizzer White didn't write "unless he might someday pose some vague threat" in his Garner decision.
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Offline sylvan

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1942 on: June 26, 2018, 04:01:04 PM »
As Barto said, the police came to the conclusion that he posed a threat to the GREATER general public. I don't necessarily like that they're able to make that decision, but given the information they had, where do we draw the line at what's "reasonable"? This isn't a guy sitting in a passenger seat, obeying officer's orders, suddenly full of bullets.

(P.S. I hate Hate HATE the "brotherhood" and shitty dickholes with badges, but acknowledge that they're not all bad)
Which one are we talking about here? Penn or Minn? You've got two dead fleeing suspects in the news right now. And in both cases I'm pretty adamant that you err on the side of no corpses. That's where I draw the line. Until somebody is an immediate threat he's still a suspect deserving of due process. Whizzer White didn't write "unless he might someday pose some vague threat" in his Garner decision.

I don't disagree. But I just wouldn't say he gave himself the best chance at NOT getting shot, whether it's right or not. I can't even imagine what it would be like to try and put more legal culpability on the officers, but someone should look into that...

Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1943 on: June 26, 2018, 04:57:52 PM »
As Barto said, the police came to the conclusion that he posed a threat to the GREATER general public. I don't necessarily like that they're able to make that decision, but given the information they had, where do we draw the line at what's "reasonable"? This isn't a guy sitting in a passenger seat, obeying officer's orders, suddenly full of bullets.

(P.S. I hate Hate HATE the "brotherhood" and shitty dickholes with badges, but acknowledge that they're not all bad)
Which one are we talking about here? Penn or Minn? You've got two dead fleeing suspects in the news right now. And in both cases I'm pretty adamant that you err on the side of no corpses. That's where I draw the line. Until somebody is an immediate threat he's still a suspect deserving of due process. Whizzer White didn't write "unless he might someday pose some vague threat" in his Garner decision.

I don't disagree. But I just wouldn't say he gave himself the best chance at NOT getting shot, whether it's right or not. I can't even imagine what it would be like to try and put more legal culpability on the officers, but someone should look into that...
Well, a really big part of the problem is that I don't think you or I have any idea what gives you the best opportunity to not be shot anymore. Two weeks ago I would have wagered that running gave him a better chance at not being shot than trying to play Simon says with a bunch of jacked up cops on the side of the road. It removes the possibility of Johnny playing the "I was in fear for my life" card, and you've got a pretty clear legal precedent. The latter isn't to suggest that the law would make any difference, it wouldn't, but it is a bright line that the police have had drilled into their head. I would have considered it a tradeoff between the uncertainty of a felony stop and the absolute certainty of a Rodney King style beatdown. Man, how do you calculate that when Monty Hall offers you one door with an instant ass whipping and another door that could contain anything from an uneventful trip to the calaboose to a Sonny Corleone style massacre?

However, the fact that we're discussing this points to the bigger problem. The onus shouldn't be on us to figure out how not to get shot by the police.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1944 on: June 27, 2018, 10:40:28 AM »
The cop that shot Antwon Rose is being charged with some variety of homicide. Anybody want to place a bet on whether or not he's convicted?  :lol

One thing this does suggest is that the video was pretty damning. The kid was shot in the back as he ran away. At the same time they've linked the weapon found in the car to a previous drive-by shooting, so that'll clear Johnny. It won't take five minutes for a jury to acquit him, and in light of the standards at play here they'll be "right" to do so.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1945 on: June 29, 2018, 10:11:04 AM »
What about personal responsibility? If you don't want to get tased then you shouldn't, um, well, fuck, I don't know anymore.  :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfrrzX7GmGY
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1946 on: June 29, 2018, 01:36:58 PM »
What about personal responsibility? If you don't want to get tased then you shouldn't, um, well, fuck, I don't know anymore.  :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfrrzX7GmGY

That cop should be tazed twice a day for the next year for that. Utterly ridiculous. You can't give commands that people may or may not be able to perform. Not every person can stick their legs straight out in front of them while sitting. I'd like to see him try that without a bend in his knee.

I don't think the cop should lose his job but certainly extensive training and like I said, he should be tazed himself....multiple times.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1947 on: June 29, 2018, 02:06:45 PM »
He will lose his job and rightly so. While cops are above the law they generally aren't above department procedure. So long as there's evidence that can't be ignored or buried they'll usually be disciplined accordingly. He was offering at most passive resistance, and quite possibly none at all and just couldn't figure out how to do what they were commanding. Johnny was still 2 or 3 steps removed from taser country.

The thing that really bugs me is what ever happened to "excuse me, can I talk to you a for a minute?" A white guy walking down the street with a mini-14 still gets "Hey, what's going on? Can I have a word with you?" And those guys are invariably going to be assholes, that's why they're doing what they do. It takes 30 or 40 "am I being detained"s before Johnny loses his coll. A black guy is ordered to the ground before they even find out if he's armed or doing something wrong. The call the cops in that video were responding to was a guy with a baseball bat. A bat he clearly doesn't have.

And I'll reiterate, it's not because cops hate black people. Cops are afraid of black people.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1948 on: July 05, 2018, 12:14:43 PM »
Cops prescribing sedatives. What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180703/15383240171/cops-are-telling-paramedics-to-inject-arrestees-with-ketamine-worse-ems-crews-are-actually-doing-it.shtml

Quote

    Minneapolis police officers have repeatedly requested over the past three years that Hennepin County medical responders sedate people using the powerful tranquilizer ketamine, at times over the protests of those being drugged, and in some cases when no apparent crime was committed, a city report shows.

    On multiple occasions, in the presence of police, Hennepin Healthcare EMS workers injected suspects of crimes and others who already appeared to be restrained, according to the report, and the ketamine caused heart or breathing failure, requiring them to be medically revived. Several people given ketamine had to be intubated.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1949 on: July 05, 2018, 03:57:55 PM »
Cops prescribing sedatives. What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180703/15383240171/cops-are-telling-paramedics-to-inject-arrestees-with-ketamine-worse-ems-crews-are-actually-doing-it.shtml

Quote

    Minneapolis police officers have repeatedly requested over the past three years that Hennepin County medical responders sedate people using the powerful tranquilizer ketamine, at times over the protests of those being drugged, and in some cases when no apparent crime was committed, a city report shows.

    On multiple occasions, in the presence of police, Hennepin Healthcare EMS workers injected suspects of crimes and others who already appeared to be restrained, according to the report, and the ketamine caused heart or breathing failure, requiring them to be medically revived. Several people given ketamine had to be intubated.

Yeah, not a fan of that at all.  I can see administering some sort of approved drug in the case of a apparent drug overdose, poisoning, or animal bite, but this isn't that.   

Offline Chino

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1950 on: September 07, 2018, 08:06:52 AM »
https://www.fox4news.com/news/dallas-officer-goes-home-to-wrong-apartment-kills-man-inside

Cop walks into the wrong apartment, doesn't realize it's not hers, shoots and kills the tenant (black man), and get's put on paid administrative leave.

#'Merica

Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1951 on: September 07, 2018, 08:26:23 AM »
https://www.fox4news.com/news/dallas-officer-goes-home-to-wrong-apartment-kills-man-inside

Cop walks into the wrong apartment, doesn't realize it's not hers, shoots and kills the tenant (black man), and get's put on paid administrative leave.

#'Merica
A black dude in that complex was probably the last thing she ever expected to see. And given the neighborhood she would have naturally assumed he was a bad actor.

She'll go to jail, but she'll get a great deal of leniency. Ironically she'll cite her officer training in her defense, claiming that she's trained to read a situation and act decisively to end any perceived threat.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1952 on: September 11, 2018, 10:28:54 AM »
This thing's turning ugly. This is being turned into an indictment against the police, despite it not actually being an OIS. The woman very clearly fucked up and will very definitely be going away for a while. This is as it should be. If she were a dog catcher it shouldn't be any different. But now we have people picketing the police department, and the family has hired the modern equivalent of Johnny Cochran to "protect their interests." Their interests, I suspect, will be in landing a blow against racists cops, despite it being an unrelated tangent.

She also has the unrelated complication of having shot somebody else just last year. This will undoubtedly be used against her, but the reality is that she most likely deserved an attagirl for that shooting after it went down. I feel bad for the dead guy, he should still be alive, but I also feel bad for this girl who's getting roped into something far bigger than what is called for.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1953 on: September 11, 2018, 11:49:20 AM »
Haven't we been conditioned to believe that when a black person is a victim in any form, racism is never an "unrelated tangent?"
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Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1954 on: September 11, 2018, 01:34:05 PM »
No more than we've been conditioned to believe that race is never a factor beyond the obvious, primary component.

And in this case I don't think racism is the issue. Kill-crazy cops are the issue.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1955 on: September 11, 2018, 02:06:20 PM »
Ha touché.

Agreed on the second line. Though we could substitute kill-crazy people in general the way things are going.

I keep coming back to what you said a while ago. "Cops don't hate black people, but they are afraid of them, and that is not racist." (paraphrasing, and apologies if that wasn't you). I just typed a bunch of thoughts, read through it, and deleted it because I wasn't articulating myself well. That's how poorly I feel I am able to discuss this topic. Everything comes out a jumbled mess.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1956 on: September 11, 2018, 02:16:38 PM »
For me, it is relevant that she is a police officer, though not for any 'racism' reasons (and it'll be unfortunate if that becomes the overriding narrative). There is a lot in the initial reporting of this story that, if it were a movie, would require my suspension of disbelief. And if reality, then a change in certain policies of the Dallas PD.

First, I would want to know if this officer has received adequate training with her firearm. Because frankly it simply isn't believable to me that such a remarkable confluence of extraordinary events happened here, according to the account given by the police chief. I get unlikely scenarios happen but it just doesn't sound reasonable to me that a very tired person after a shift, who happens to be armed, drives up a further floor than necessary and misses the red doormat and door numbers due to fatigue, and at the exact same moment this door happens to be ajar (but all the lights are off for some reason), but not so ajar as you'd notice so you put your keycard in anyway. And then despite it being night and the apartment occupied, all the lights inside are off (recall again the door being ajar - why??)  though the victim is in plain view, yet doesn't respond to any of the officer's warnings. Complicating matters further is that I have also read reports that neighbours heard her banging on the door and demanding access. 

Second, apparently she had just finished a 15 hour shift, which if true indicates a department that is overworking its officers. 15 hour shifts for a police officer should not be normal. Third, Guyger was in an officer shooting last year. Did she receive adequate psychological conseling after this? Was that a factor in her (apparently) being so jumpy and trigger-happy here? Fourth, the fact it took a relatively long time for her to even get arrested suggests the investigation began under different circumstances than civilian shootings (the police themselves have made it relevant that she's a police officer).

All of this is based only on what I've read and the police chief's statement. Maybe there are new details I haven't come across yet. And this of course will be a long investigation. But my initial impression is that it is relevant that she was a cop. If Guyger wasn't drunk or on drugs then signs point to the Dallas PD having things to answer for, none of them connected with 'racism'.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1957 on: September 11, 2018, 02:30:52 PM »
For me, it is relevant that she is a police officer, though not for any 'racism' reasons (and it'll be unfortunate if that becomes the overriding narrative). There is a lot in the initial reporting of this story that, if it were a movie, would require my suspension of disbelief. And if reality, then a change in certain policies of the Dallas PD.

First, I would want to know if this officer has received adequate training with her firearm. Because frankly it simply isn't believable to me that such a remarkable confluence of extraordinary events happened here, according to the account given by the police chief. I get unlikely scenarios happen but it just doesn't sound reasonable to me that a very tired person after a shift, who happens to be armed, drives up a further floor than necessary and misses the red doormat and door numbers due to fatigue, and at the exact same moment this door happens to be ajar (but all the lights are off for some reason), but not so ajar as you'd notice so you put your keycard in anyway. And then despite it being night and the apartment occupied, all the lights inside are off (recall again the door being ajar - why??)  though the victim is in plain view, yet doesn't respond to any of the officer's warnings. Complicating matters further is that I have also read reports that neighbours heard her banging on the door and demanding access. 

Second, apparently she had just finished a 15 hour shift, which if true indicates a department that is overworking its officers. 15 hour shifts for a police officer should not be normal. Third, Guyger was in an officer shooting last year. Did she receive adequate psychological conseling after this? Was that a factor in her (apparently) being so jumpy and trigger-happy here? Fourth, the fact it took a relatively long time for her to even get arrested suggests the investigation began under different circumstances than civilian shootings (the police themselves have made it relevant that she's a police officer).


All of this is based only on what I've read and the police chief's statement. Maybe there are new details I haven't come across yet. And this of course will be a long investigation. But my initial impression is that it is relevant that she was a cop. If Guyger wasn't drunk or on drugs then signs point to the Dallas PD having things to answer for, none of them connected with 'racism'.
There's not a whole lot to say about the circumstances right now, other than that the reality is probably somewhere in between hers and the witnesses' accounts.

Regarding the bolded, the DPD is severely understaffed right now. There have been recent reports of an entire neighborhood (mine, coincidentally) that have had one car and one bike patrol covering it some mornings. If they're only pulling 15 hour shifts I'd be surprised. However, that's not an altogether dangerous thing. There are departments that work 24 on/72 off, for example. Not all of her duty time is going to be chasing down bad guys.

Also, people are left free to be arrested later all the time. Had this been a civvie it's very possible that there would have been the same 2 day delay before hooking her up. Though it does appear to be incorrect, her initial claim was essentially self defense, and that's probably going to require more than a quick chat with her to sort out. My greater concern would be the delay in interviewing her, though I'm not sure how long that was.
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