The history of a deteriorating relationship: MP vs. JLB

[SnakeEyes]

The way I see it.... Portnoy is pretty much, well, trendy.  He likes to sound like whatever is the flavor of the month.  When 80's hair bands were popular and everyone had a high, operatic voice, you can be damn sure he was in love with LaBrie.  When that started to fade, you can be damn sure he wanted James to sound like a heavier, grittier singer.  When cookie monster singing started coming around, well, then he said, "if we were starting this band nowadays, I'd want a different type of singer than James."  He likes what's popular and I honestly think he took it out on LaBrie.  The food poisoning/ not being able to sing for eight years issue probably didn't help that because, if Portnoy was getting sick of James' style in general, then it must have been frustrating to hear him hacking his way through DT songs. 

[Kotowboy]

I'd be frustrated being in a studio with Portnoy.

[PetFish]

^^

JP:  You guys hungry?  If anyone is interested I think I'm going to ge...
MP:  I'M ORDERING SUSHI RIGHT NOW FOR ALL OF US AND IF YOU DON'T WANT SUSHI AS WELL TOO BAD!

JR:  I brought Season 3 of 24 if you guys want to watch in-between recor...
MP:  HERE'S SOUTH PARK SEASONS 1 TO 10 THAT I'M PUTTING IN THE TV AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE SOUTH PARK TOO BAD!

JL:  Guys, what if we...
MP:  I'M THE KING OF THE WORLD AND YOU WILL ALL AGREE WITH ME OR I'LL JUST WEAR YOU DOWN UNTIL YOU DO!

JM:  . . .
MP:  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . !

Cleaning Lady:  I ran out of Lemon Pledge, I need some petty cash to go buy some mo...
MP:  USE THIS OTHER STUFF FROM THE DOLLAR STORE IT SUCKS BUT DO WHAT I SAY OR ELSE!

[Cedar redaC]

I don't imagine it's anywhere near that extent

Some people just have more dominant personalities, which is okay.

[TheGreatPretender]

Cleaning Lady:  I ran out of Lemon Pledge, I need some petty cash to go buy some mo...
MP:  USE THIS OTHER STUFF FROM THE DOLLAR STORE IT SUCKS BUT DO WHAT I SAY OR ELSE!

Cleaning Lady: No... No.... Meester Portnoy no here.

[SeRoX]

 

[Madman Shepherd]

The way I see it.... Portnoy is pretty much, well, trendy.  He likes to sound like whatever is the flavor of the month.  When 80's hair bands were popular and everyone had a high, operatic voice, you can be damn sure he was in love with LaBrie.  When that started to fade, you can be damn sure he wanted James to sound like a heavier, grittier singer.  When cookie monster singing started coming around, well, then he said, "if we were starting this band nowadays, I'd want a different type of singer than James."  He likes what's popular and I honestly think he took it out on LaBrie.  The food poisoning/ not being able to sing for eight years issue probably didn't help that because, if Portnoy was getting sick of James' style in general, then it must have been frustrating to hear him hacking his way through DT songs.

I think trendiness plays a huge part in it but not its entirety.  I think it is mainly his following whatever trends he sees fit and not being content when other people don't follow with him or fit his vision. 

What i mean is, obviously prog music wasn't really "trendy".  Sure, if you want to fit in some circles then you need to be into prog and thats where Mike was at.  Down the line, he puts together Progressive Nation and 8 people complain and he gets all offended and says "People need to just open their minds and they will enjoy it."  Well, I have a very open mind.  If I didn't I would have just bought a Cardigans CD but I just don't like Frank Zappa music.  I've heard enough of it to know that.  If I don't like it, it is no more an attack on you than it would be an attack on me for personally not preferring the Cardigans (whom I also think would not be a good opener for Dream Theater)

[philmcson]

I don't imagine it's anywhere near that extent

Some people just have more dominant personalities, which is okay.

Of course. I mean, imagine all of them being and behaving like JM. Would be a bit too...... anti-social and restrained!? 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Yeah, it's just that people usually have more problem with flamboyant-pompous personalities like Portnoy's and not with calm-chill personalities, like JM's.

[PetFish]

Cleaning Lady: No... No.... Meester Portnoy no here.

Wrong, it's Meester Mike, it's a trick question.

[ReaperKK]

Cleaning Lady: No... No.... Meester Portnoy no here.

Wrong, it's Meester Mike, it's a trick question.

[badger]

good stuff

[theseoafs]

JM:  . . .
MP:  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . !

 

[VioletS16]

This thread is now only half serious... 
It's already been stated multiple times, but I don't think there's ever been any hate between MP and JLB. Resentment on MP's part, hurt feelings on James's and definitely tension between both maybe, but not *hatred*.

[wasteland]

This thread is now only half serious... 
It's already been stated multiple times, but I don't think there's ever been any hate between MP and JLB. Resentment on MP's part, hurt feelings on James's and definitely tension between both maybe, but not *hatred*.

I agreee with you. Sure, some hard feelings, but "hate" is too strong a word to be used in this situation.

[lithium112]

The way I see it.... Portnoy is pretty much, well, trendy.  He likes to sound like whatever is the flavor of the month.  When 80's hair bands were popular and everyone had a high, operatic voice, you can be damn sure he was in love with LaBrie.  When that started to fade, you can be damn sure he wanted James to sound like a heavier, grittier singer.  When cookie monster singing started coming around, well, then he said, "if we were starting this band nowadays, I'd want a different type of singer than James."  He likes what's popular and I honestly think he took it out on LaBrie.  The food poisoning/ not being able to sing for eight years issue probably didn't help that because, if Portnoy was getting sick of James' style in general, then it must have been frustrating to hear him hacking his way through DT songs.

I think MP's musical tastes have evolved throughout his career and I don't see anything wrong with that. As a listener, my tastes have evolved as well. I used to listen to almost exclusively classic rock ten years ago. Now my tastes are varied but my favourite bands are in the prog metal genre. There's nothing wrong with having shifting interests and tbh I wouldn't listen to DT if they stuck to the same sound as I&W for 20 years.

I'm certainly not defending any statements he's made about wishing James was a different singer, because I think it's really uncool to make comments like that about a band member, but I don't see any issue with him liking growled vocals in general and wanting to implement them in his music. I'm not sure to what extent creative differences were a factor in Mike's decision to leave the band but I think they will all be better off for it down the line.

[me7]

JM:  . . .
MP:  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . !

 

[SystematicThought]

JM:  . . .
MP:  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . !

This is how I imagine it

[Setlist Scotty]

The way I see it.... Portnoy is pretty much, well, trendy.  He likes to sound like whatever is the flavor of the month.  When 80's hair bands were popular and everyone had a high, operatic voice, you can be damn sure he was in love with LaBrie.  When that started to fade, you can be damn sure he wanted James to sound like a heavier, grittier singer.  When cookie monster singing started coming around, well, then he said, "if we were starting this band nowadays, I'd want a different type of singer than James."  He likes what's popular and I honestly think he took it out on LaBrie.  The food poisoning/ not being able to sing for eight years issue probably didn't help that because, if Portnoy was getting sick of James' style in general, then it must have been frustrating to hear him hacking his way through DT songs.

I think MP's musical tastes have evolved throughout his career and I don't see anything wrong with that. As a listener, my tastes have evolved as well.

I agree with what lithium wrote above completely.

Sorry SnakeEyes, but your point about cookie monster vocals (and therefore the whole idea of him being trendy) is moot. Cookie monster vocals have been around for a long time - since the 80s, and yet DT never incorporated them on any of their first 8 albums. The progressive jazz-metal band Cynic used them on their album (I believe it was released in 1993) as did Death (who's later albums were more progressive) amongst others. Yet, there was *no* sign of cookie monster vocals on DT albums until MUCH later, despite the fact that he was no doubt fans of these bands. It was only beginning in 2007 that we saw a change. So was he following a trend? Hardly.

And for the record, I'm not trying to defend them by any means - I abhor them, especially in DT's music. But ignorant accusations like your's need to be addressed.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think MP's musical tastes have evolved throughout his career and I don't see anything wrong with that. As a listener, my tastes have evolved as well. I used to listen to almost exclusively classic rock ten years ago. Now my tastes are varied but my favourite bands are in the prog metal genre.

But does that mean you stopped listening or liking the classic rock bands that you used to ten years ago?

[bosk1]

Cookie monster vocals have been around for a long time - since the 80s, and yet DT never incorporated them on any of their albums, even though Mike tried on BCSL.

Fixed.

[Madman Shepherd]

Sorry SnakeEyes, but your point about cookie monster vocals (and therefore the whole idea of him being trendy) is moot. Cookie monster vocals have been around for a long time - since the 80s, and yet DT never incorporated them on any of their first 8 albums. The progressive jazz-metal band Cynic used them on their album (I believe it was released in 1993) as did Death (who's later albums were more progressive) amongst others. Yet, there was *no* sign of cookie monster vocals on DT albums until MUCH later, despite the fact that he was no doubt fans of these bands. It was only beginning in 2007 that we saw a change. So was he following a trend? Hardly.

Well Opeth really did start to get a big following in the early 2000s and it became trendier to like them.  Is Mike trying to be like Cannibal Corpse?  Nope.  Opeth?  Welllllll.........

[lithium112]

I think MP's musical tastes have evolved throughout his career and I don't see anything wrong with that. As a listener, my tastes have evolved as well. I used to listen to almost exclusively classic rock ten years ago. Now my tastes are varied but my favourite bands are in the prog metal genre.

But does that mean you stopped listening or liking the classic rock bands that you used to ten years ago?

I still like some of them, while others I find pretty boring to listen to these days.

[KevShmev]

Sorry SnakeEyes, but your point about cookie monster vocals (and therefore the whole idea of him being trendy) is moot. Cookie monster vocals have been around for a long time - since the 80s, and yet DT never incorporated them on any of their first 8 albums. The progressive jazz-metal band Cynic used them on their album (I believe it was released in 1993) as did Death (who's later albums were more progressive) amongst others. Yet, there was *no* sign of cookie monster vocals on DT albums until MUCH later, despite the fact that he was no doubt fans of these bands. It was only beginning in 2007 that we saw a change. So was he following a trend? Hardly.

Well Opeth really did start to get a big following in the early 2000s and it became trendier to like them.  Is Mike trying to be like Cannibal Corpse?  Nope.  Opeth?  Welllllll.........

Exactly.  Growling never became popular at all until the last few years, and woah, all of a sudden, Portnoy was attempting them in Dream Theater.  Plus, the first real (albeit poor) attempt at them was on A Nightmare to Remember in 2009, the same year DT toured with Opeth on the Prog Nation tour, so I wouldn't be surprised if Portnoy had a thought in mind of trying to get some Opeth fans over to their side by having a bit of growling in one of their songs.

There is most certainly a correlation there. 

[olliemedsy]

Sorry SnakeEyes, but your point about cookie monster vocals (and therefore the whole idea of him being trendy) is moot. Cookie monster vocals have been around for a long time - since the 80s, and yet DT never incorporated them on any of their first 8 albums. The progressive jazz-metal band Cynic used them on their album (I believe it was released in 1993) as did Death (who's later albums were more progressive) amongst others. Yet, there was *no* sign of cookie monster vocals on DT albums until MUCH later, despite the fact that he was no doubt fans of these bands. It was only beginning in 2007 that we saw a change. So was he following a trend? Hardly.

Well Opeth really did start to get a big following in the early 2000s and it became trendier to like them.  Is Mike trying to be like Cannibal Corpse?  Nope.  Opeth?  Welllllll.........

Exactly.  Growling never became popular at all until the last few years, and woah, all of a sudden, Portnoy was attempting them in Dream Theater.  Plus, the first real (albeit poor) attempt at them was on A Nightmare to Remember in 2009, the same year DT toured with Opeth on the Prog Nation tour, so I wouldn't be surprised if Portnoy had a thought in mind of trying to get some Opeth fans over to their side by having a bit of growling in one of their songs.

There is most certainly a correlation there.

and blast beats dont forget the blast beats

[olliemedsy]

also, i honestly have no clue where, but i swear i remember reading or watching an interview with MP (could have been dreaming) saying that he had blast beats in ANTR because they were on tour with opeth and BTBAM and he felt left out, so he decided to put them in a dt song. lame. if that's true, which im pretty certain is.

[MoraWintersoul]

Oh, god, what was I thinking clicking on this for the third time.

Why would that be lame? The guy just wanted some blast beats. Let's not claim being progressive fans and then get mad at bands for trying anything even slightly out of the box. If the other guys thought blast beats were completely lame, they probably wouldn't be in the song. Portnoy was keen on pushing direction, but I don't think any single member could have pushed a concrete idea/song bit if the rest of the band completely resented it. The RRAAAAAAAAWWWWWRRR verse was a compromise with JP... remember that?

What I find uncool in the ending stages of DT with MP is that direction they were pushing - the resulting songs, when they were bad, were just a product of that. MP might have been the main person pushing, but he wasn't the only one.

What I find uncool about MP's relationship with JLB - their PROFESSIONAL relationship, since we can only guess about their personal relationships, and the only thing certain there is that they have opposite personalities, which CAN lead to clashes - is that, for several years before leaving the band, MP has been writing for some imaginary singer who could accommodate his changing tastes in everything, instead of the singer he was, more or less in his own words, stuck with working with. And I don't need to tell you what kind of situations could that lead to, because we saw several scenarios happen.

The guessing part of the post, because, if you can all do it, so can I: I don't think JLB suffered a lot of hurt feelings, he's a confident and flexible guy, and knows a lot of us wouldn't have DT without him. But after all the adversities he conquered, over and over, it probably wasn't very pleasant to hear one of your bandmates basically doesn't appreciate what you're doing for the band anymore, and sees no problem in talking about it over the internet/media. It was strange. It was silly. It shouldn't have been done. But it is. And now we just have to deal with it or move the fuck on, DT and JLB certainly did. I think MP wouldn't have said it nor did the liking Facebook comments-thing nor the Thiago Campos-thing if he knew how upset it would make us. Or so I would like to believe.

There, I posted, now let's all kiss and make up:

[TheGreatPretender]

I still like some of them, while others I find pretty boring to listen to these days.

That's unfortunate. But I can't say more since 'classic rock' is pretty vague, and I have no idea who you're talking about.

[philmcson]

Why would that be lame? The guy just wanted some blast beats. Let's not claim being progressive fans and then get mad at bands for trying anything even slightly out of the box. If the other guys thought blast beats were completely lame, they probably wouldn't be in the song. Portnoy was keen on pushing direction, but I don't think any single member could have pushed a concrete idea/song bit if the rest of the band completely resented it. The RRAAAAAAAAWWWWWRRR verse was a compromise with JP... remember that?

This.

While watching this forum as a guest, someone noticed that MP's fills and licks were all used at least a few times in other songs and so on - in that case, it has to be greeted if a drummer who could stick to his old habits (successfully) tried something new. Of course the (new) fills a drummer develops are a result of the influences he's dealing with at that present moment. And apart from that, the blast beat was nailed pretty good and I didn't get the feeling that it didn't fit into the song. 

[BlobVanDam]

also, i honestly have no clue where, but i swear i remember reading or watching an interview with MP (could have been dreaming) saying that he had blast beats in ANTR because they were on tour with opeth and BTBAM and he felt left out, so he decided to put them in a dt song. lame. if that's true, which im pretty certain is.

And I'm pretty sure that if he said that, it was in jest. Like you would give that as a real justification for a musical decision....

[LCArenas]

also, i honestly have no clue where, but i swear i remember reading or watching an interview with MP (could have been dreaming) saying that he had blast beats in ANTR because they were on tour with opeth and BTBAM and he felt left out, so he decided to put them in a dt song. lame. if that's true, which im pretty certain is.

And I'm pretty sure that if he said that, it was in jest. Like you would give that as a real justification for a musical decision....

To Be Fair, it reallly sounds like an MP joke. I also think it was in jest

[VioletS16]

also, i honestly have no clue where, but i swear i remember reading or watching an interview with MP (could have been dreaming) saying that he had blast beats in ANTR because they were on tour with opeth and BTBAM and he felt left out, so he decided to put them in a dt song. lame. if that's true, which im pretty certain is.

Blast beats can sound good if you do them right.
I'm not so sure MP did them right, mostly having to do with the fact that blast beats don't belong everywhere and anywhere (something a lot of bands need to realize *cought*cradleoffilth*cough*). You can't just stick a blast beat in where a blast beat has no purpose
And this is completely off-topic, but who is in your avatar? Looks really familiar and I have an idea but I don't want to say in case I'm wrong... 

[?]

While I think the "growls" on ANTR have most certainly been an influence from Opeth (MP even said he considered asking Åkerfeldt to do that bit at first), the blast beats are not - Opeth only have one song with those (The Lotus Eater) and even in that one there are clean vocals over the riff with blast beats.

And apart from that, the blast beat was nailed pretty good and I didn't get the feeling that it didn't fit into the song. 

Actually the blast beats weren't nailed really well IMO - to my ears it sounds like he's having trouble with them, as if he was exhausted playing that part. I mean, obviously blast beats aren't the easiest thing to play on drums, but I've heard other drummers play them even faster than MP without sounding like they're struggling. I think there has been discussion about this matter even earlier, perhaps around the release of BC&SL? (I wasn't around here back then, but I remember seeing a thread like that)

[The Presence of Frenemies]

While I think the "growls" on ANTR have most certainly been an influence from Opeth (MP even said he considered asking Åkerfeldt to do that bit at first), the blast beats are not - Opeth only have one song with those (The Lotus Eater) and even in that one there are clean vocals over the riff with blast beats.

And apart from that, the blast beat was nailed pretty good and I didn't get the feeling that it didn't fit into the song. 

Actually the blast beats weren't nailed really well IMO - to my ears it sounds like he's having trouble with them, as if he was exhausted playing that part. I mean, obviously blast beats aren't the easiest thing to play on drums, but I've heard other drummers play them even faster than MP without sounding like they're struggling. I think there has been discussion about this matter even earlier, perhaps around the release of BC&SL? (I wasn't around here back then, but I remember seeing a thread like that)

Agreed. And is it just me or did the blast beats sound badly produced, too? Granted I'm no connoisseur of the style, but it sounded like the punch of MP's snare totally vanished in that section--a rarity from a guy who's snare was always very prominent in the DT mix.

[philmcson]

Of course he didn't nail the blast beat as well as, for instance, Mario Duplantier from Gojira on any song which has some of them (let's name Backbone and Vacuity) but I personally appreciate if a drummer doesn't rest on their "technical laurels" but improves as long as they physically can stand practising for hours and hours with a metronome per day.
Nobody can blame Nick Mason (Pink Floyd) for not improving anymore, but imo Nicko McBrain (Maiden) still gets better and better with every album (although he said he's getting out of shape) as well as Lars Ulrich is declining and sometimes seems having a hard time keeping his double bass drumming precise and his fills groovy. So, better try a blast beat and partly fail while doing so than just having 2-3 trademark sections from the past (Enter Sandman, Master of puppets) and a sloppy style nowadays