The Middle East Discussion Thread

[Super Dude]

I have no practical use for it personally, but for others I guess. I made it the Middle East thread so people wouldn't start complaining about bias towards or against Israel.

Enjoy.

[Rathma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pLuzRSFVps

Looks like Netanyahu is quite pleased with Islam's holy rage at a youtube video. "You want these fanatics to have nuclear weapons?" No, not really. But nobody wants Israel to have nukes either.

[rumborak]

I was thinking the other day, are Muslim countries aware how they portray themselves? All you ever see of them are rather pointless displays of mob rage. I am sure there are many thoughtful Muslims, but publicly they come across as a collective "I had 5 pots of coffee today". Especially middle-aged women in black garb screaming at the top of their lungs seem like a popular pastime down there.

[Scheavo]

To be fair, how do you think it looks to the rest of the word, when say, the Lakers win the championship, and LA riots, destroying cars and setting fires? I have a hard time judging another country based upon the select media coverage our, well, sensational and horrible media gives something.

[Rathma]

I was thinking the other day, are Muslim countries aware how they portray themselves? All you ever see of them are rather pointless displays of mob rage.

Don't you mean "aware of how they are portrayed"? "All you ever see of them" is not a result of an entire country's self-portrayal.

But anyways, things like this http://gawker.com/5942767/in-response-to-benghazi-attack-libyans-hold-powerful-anti+terror-demonstrations/gallery/1 suggest to me that at least some people over there are much more conscious of how their countries are being portrayed than most Americans are.

[Super Dude]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pLuzRSFVps

Looks like Netanyahu is quite pleased with Islam's holy rage at a youtube video. "You want these fanatics to have nuclear weapons?" No, not really. But nobody wants Israel to have nukes either.

Nobody should want any country to have nukes.

[El Barto]

My concern is that they keep demonstrating how easy it is to push their buttons.  What happens if some super-nationalistic group with anti-Muslim tendencies and lots of media ownership decides to keep whipping them into a frenzy?  They seem to feel that they're the victim of a holy war, yet they keep providing the basis for one to actually occur. 

[Perpetual Change]

I have some very good Muslim friends, one who's a fairly educated woman from Pakistan. There definitely seems to be a duality there. On one hand, it seems like the gut reaction of a lot of Muslims is to blame all problems on the United States. On the other, there's a slightly less prominent consciousness acknowledging the region had plenty of issues before the United States, and that correcting many of these starts at home.

This particular woman went to a protest of the US film in Hong Kong recently. She hates America, but she wound up leaving early because the rhetoric of the speakers was just rallying everyone up in the worst ways.

From my discussions with her, I definitely get the sense that the United States and the West often exasperate many of the problems the Muslim world faces already.  But there are even more problems, regarding the maturity equality and education of the citizenry, that have deep-seeded cultural roots. And these can only really be corrected from within.

[Progmetty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pLuzRSFVps

Looks like Netanyahu is quite pleased with Islam's holy rage at a youtube video. "You want these fanatics to have nuclear weapons?" No, not really. But nobody wants Israel to have nukes either.

Nobody should want any country to have nukes.

What a good looking post

My concern is that they keep demonstrating how easy it is to push their buttons.  What happens if some super-nationalistic group with anti-Muslim tendencies and lots of media ownership decides to keep whipping them into a frenzy?  They seem to feel that they're the victim of a holy war, yet they keep providing the basis for one to actually occur. 

I'm sick of them dumb fuckers, I was hurt when I read about the movie but as usual when things like that happen I keep it to myself because I know any display of offense taken would only make it worse. Exactly because of that point.
I've been talking to them dumb fuckers everyday trying to explain that the west doesn't really understand or take anything from the protests and violent reactions but the fact that you are primitive and potentially crazy, I have to go around explaining that most Western peoples can't comprehend sacred symbols in this day and age cause they either don't really believe in it anymore or of the attitude "Hey I let my media make fun of my sacred religious symbols, why shouldn't it make fun of yours? Learn to live with it just like I had to".
Of course I'm not the only one who tries to clarify things like that, there'a lot of people who feel the same way, it's just that it's more interesting to show the angry Muslim mobs rioting than to show the ones trying to talk sense into them and I'm not saying I'm better than the people in the angry mob but I had exposure to the world outside Arab land and I have some insight into how people think here.
The usual reaction I get is "So if your sister gets rapped you don't beat up the rapist because he's stronger than you and it might provoke him into doing it again, that's what you're saying basically, watch the rape and do nothing", their metaphor is precisely how Muslims feel about this and while I'd be of the opinion to yes you know you're helpless so shut up so you wouldn't provoke the rapist from repeating the act; I completely understand how most wouldn't be of that opinion, I'm just very opposed to the reaction being dumb fuck protests that did nothing but make the dumb fuckers feel better momentarily without caring about the dumb fuck display of their dumb fuck angry ass monkeys image.
Arabs keep doing nothing but sabotage their image further and lose more and more of the West's sympathy or support for their cause.
The sole beneficiary of their stupidity is war happy Netanyahu pointing out the angry mobs as the increasingly singled out projection of the enemies of Israel and humanity in the eyes of the west. I say good for the mofo, the dumb fuckers have been nothing but helpful to him.
I'm sick and tired of all this, I blame my people and the decades of allowing the wrong people being in power, keeping us ignorant and behaviorally stuck sometime in the mid 1800's, we need core slow changes and the revolutions were a start but we need at least two generations -including mine- to die out before we start seeing significant changes in our collective behavior and how we represent ourselves and get points across.

[El Barto]

Yeah, unfortunately change at that level is incredibly slow to happen, and the Arabs haven't exactly been keen to embrace it.  It's actually somewhat fascinating to me.  There was a time when they were the enlightened sector of humanity.  It just seems that they peaked long ago, and are content to stagnate now.  The exact same thing could be said of the Chinese, and they're actually demonstrating a resurgence, so there's till hope. Yet it doesn't seem to be anywhere on the Arab's radar right now.

[rumborak]

I wouldn't be surprised if Islamic countries' rejection of modernity is partially out of a certain inferiority complex that their religion hasn't caused them to come out on top.

[Rathma]

There was a time when they were the enlightened sector of humanity.

It makes you wonder if the West can slide back into that kind of backwardness. I'd say it's possible, given enough turmoil and collapse of institutions, but probably not to the same extent.

[Super Dude]

I mean it's not that they slid backwards, really, they just sorta fell behind, right around the time of the second Industrial Revolution.

[Rathma]

The peak of the Muslim world was way before the industrial revolution though.

[Super Dude]

You can fall behind after a peak.

[Rathma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M84l19H68mk

wat

[Super Dude]

A surprisingly intelligent YouTube comment:

Jewish people are, for the most part, pretty decent, just like everyone else.
But make no mistake: the United States Israel lobby is unmitigated evil.

Read: the Israel lobby. Not Israelis, not Jews, not Americans.

I am Jewish and support Israel, but honestly groups like this cause more harm than good. Wow, maybe Occupy was right about lobbies.

[Progmetty]

You guys kinda doubled my frustration cause it's not as bad as anything that's been posted since my last post but it's the idea that gets to you through what you see but I can't blame you one bit.
The people I'm talking about are no more than 50 -60 would be pushing it but still an honest- percent of the Arab world, but they are understandably more visible than the rest. And the behavioral issue I was talking about is an Arab thing, not a Muslim thing. Muslims protested in a civilized manner all over the world but nothing involving as much physical violence and clashing with the police as we saw in the Arab countries.
There's no gun to my head, I live in America and I may follow any religion I choose if I thought mine told me to act like a crazy violent bohemian, I believe in and understand in my religion and it's simply nothing like what these dumb fuckers portray it to be even though I wish it was so I'd have an excuse to leave it and join that religious cult that has ritualistic orgies.

[El Barto]

I mean it's not that they slid backwards, really, they just sorta fell behind, right around the time of the second Industrial Revolution.

Yeah, this is pretty much it.

I think there are a lot of reasons.  Certainly the industrial revolution couldn't have effected anybody else the way it did the US.  Massive population growth due to all of the farming going on, and all the resources we could use.  We were in the right place at the right time.  Short of that, there's expansionism, which appears to be the other way that people can gain world status.  The Arabs had none of those qualities.  They weren't interested in expanding their influence, and the resources available to them at the time were scarce.  Factor in a good deal of infighting, and it's not surprising they got left behind. 

However, like I said before, they're really no different than China.  They were a superpower long before anybody else, and their stagnation was largely the result of their extreme isolationism.  All that's changing now, and the same might someday happen with the Arabs.  The biggest problem I see at the moment is that their one abundant resource is so valuable.  There's no need to do anything other than barrel it up and sell it.  Not real conducive to cultural growth, particularly if all you want to do is horde the profits.  As their oil gets harder to come by, I suspect the door will close on them.  That would be a real shame.  Yet they just seem to be, as a culture, uninterested in growth. 

[Super Dude]

I mean it's not that they slid backwards, really, they just sorta fell behind, right around the time of the second Industrial Revolution.

Yeah, this is pretty much it.

I think there are a lot of reasons.  Certainly the industrial revolution couldn't have effected anybody else the way it did the US.  Massive population growth due to all of the farming going on, and all the resources we could use.  We were in the right place at the right time.  Short of that, there's expansionism, which appears to be the other way that people can gain world status.  The Arabs had none of those qualities.  They weren't interested in expanding their influence, and the resources available to them at the time were scarce.  Factor in a good deal of infighting, and it's not surprising they got left behind. 

However, like I said before, they're really no different than China.  They were a superpower long before anybody else, and their stagnation was largely the result of their extreme isolationism.  All that's changing now, and the same might someday happen with the Arabs.  The biggest problem I see at the moment is that their one abundant resource is so valuable.  There's no need to do anything other than barrel it up and sell it.  Not real conducive to cultural growth, particularly if all you want to do is horde the profits.  As their oil gets harder to come by, I suspect the door will close on them.  That would be a real shame.  Yet they just seem to be, as a culture, uninterested in growth.

What about the entire rest of what was considered the West?

And actually in China's case, it was more a refusal to innovate than anything else. And by the time they realized Western countries could actually overpower them militarily, it was too late.

[El Barto]

What about the entire rest of what was considered the West?

What about them?  They didn't have the same advantages.  Not even Canada, which has ample real estate, most of which isn't particularly useful. 

I suppose there's also a snowball effect to be considered.  The rapid growth and possibility for wealth certainly brought in a lot of people who were interested in bettering themselves.  Lets face it, nobody spent 3 weeks in a cargo hold to come here and sit on their asses.  I don't gather there were many people itching to move to Riyadh to become more Islamic. 

[Super Dude]

The Industrial Revolutions were exceptionally good to Europe, particularly the British and the Germans.

[Rathma]

Meanwhile in Jew York...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/24/anti-jihad-poster-arrives-new-york-subways_n_1910877.html

Yea I don't really know what to say here. Seems like a tactic of generating bigotry just long enough for there to be an initial support for war.

[antigoon]

Fucking shit. Haven't seen that one yet.

[rumborak]

Today I wondered how popular Prince of Persia would be if it was called Prince of Iran...

[adace]

I was looking through the comments on the article and I found this one that I totally agree with: " The civilized man is the one who calls for peace not war."

[Blazinarps]

To all the anti Islam sentiments, I would say that Jesus was Middle Eastern, and nuns cover their hair.

Terrorists represent Islam as much as pedophile priests represent Christianity.

Can't we just get along as people?

[Progmetty]

No we can't, GTFO.
just kiddin, couldn't resist

[Scorpion]

[Super Dude]

To all the anti Islam sentiments, I would say that Jesus was Middle Eastern, and nuns cover their hair.

Terrorists represent Islam as much as pedophile priests represent Christianity.

Can't we just get along as people?

Someone obviously hasn't spent much time in P/R...

[Rathma]

fuck

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/iranian-news-agency-duped-onion-story-obama-poll-180154413.html

[Scheavo]

Hah!

Ya know, it's one of those times, when satire actually hits something on the head. Translate Mahmoud's points into American politics, and I'd be willing to bet those fake survey results wouldn't be that far off. I especially liked the "he's strong on defense," 

[Progmetty]

I just noticed that a lot of Americans think Iran is a Middle Eastern country..

[Super Dude]

Wouldn't you think it depends on how you define the Middle East as a region?

[Progmetty]

Like conflicts wise?