Author Topic: The Middle East Discussion Thread  (Read 30860 times)

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2012, 03:45:29 PM »
I wouldn't be surprised, though, if we support Israel to have a presence in the region. We need a presence there, because we've been propping up dictators and depending on their oil for years. While I think the two idea's are ideologically separate, part of me can't help but think they have intermixed in practical affairs.


Offline Rathma

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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2012, 10:13:48 PM »
"I believe as I know nearly all Christians in America do that God has a sacred covenant with the people of Israel, and that the fate of America and human freedom in the world is inextricably linked to the peace and security to the state of Israel."

Here it is again, the belief that if America doesn't support Israel somehow there will be divine judgement. This is the core of the psychology of Christian America's support for Israel. A completely irrational religion-based idea. If this kind of Christian ideology runs through our policy maybe we really are a Christian nation.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2012, 07:26:39 AM »
You're not supposed to be? The majority is Christian so yes by definition America is a Christian nation. There's nothing wrong with that, everybody is still free to practice any religion or none at all on U.S. soil, that's all that matters.
But I disagree with you on the premise that the core of America's support for Israel is religious, I believe it's basically financial. The religious part exists but mainly among people who are far from any policy or decision making positions.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2012, 07:41:12 AM »
You're not supposed to be? The majority is Christian so yes by definition America is a Christian nation. There's nothing wrong with that, everybody is still free to practice any religion or none at all on U.S. soil, that's all that matters.

By that logic America is also a female nation since the majority of Americans are female.


Quote
But I disagree with you on the premise that the core of America's support for Israel is religious, I believe it's basically financial. The religious part exists but mainly among people who are far from any policy or decision making positions.

Money is also big but you would need popular (democratic) support to maintain that national relationship. Hence the core of the psychology of the support.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2012, 12:00:20 PM »
You're not supposed to be? The majority is Christian so yes by definition America is a Christian nation. There's nothing wrong with that, everybody is still free to practice any religion or none at all on U.S. soil, that's all that matters.

By that logic America is also a female nation since the majority of Americans are female.

But nations never got classified by their genders ratio population before, it's as made up as saying the majority of soda components is water so we'll call it water instead, we can make up a lot of similar things to compare this with and your rational would always be logically correct but we're talking centuries long human tradition here; a country's religion is the majority religion, mind you if it defines the country is a different story. But as a label I don't see as big deal to call the U.S a Christian nation as long as it doesn't get into the country's policies or affect minority religions.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2012, 01:49:18 PM »
Lol. Just saying America doesn't just become a Christian nation "by definition" because the majority is Christian. There's no such definition. Even the people that argue that America is a Christian nation wouldn't use that statistical criteria.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2012, 04:07:11 PM »
True.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2012, 10:30:15 PM »
Here's an interesting documentary on Hezbollah and their little theme park.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfL2NtowafE&feature=g-all-u

Offline rumborak

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2012, 10:38:58 PM »
Here's a more general question: What is the Middle EEast's problem? That is, why can't they get their shit together? Is it an outcome of Western imperial policies imposed on them a century ago? Or the climate? Or the oil? Or too many religions and cultures in one spot?
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2012, 10:53:34 PM »
Probably the sand.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2012, 11:30:17 PM »
Here's a more general question: What is the Middle EEast's problem? That is, why can't they get their shit together? Is it an outcome of Western imperial policies imposed on them a century ago? Or the climate? Or the oil? Or too many religions and cultures in one spot?

Culture. The area is extremely tribal in nature. Tribe against tribe. As the technology changes, and the social paradigm shifts, as does the way the concept of tribe vs tribe plays out.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2012, 05:17:54 AM »
Yeah, I mean the Ottoman Empire controlling everything really was the only thing keeping everyone from constantly killing each other for centuries.
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2012, 02:43:59 PM »
So Israel announced that Iran had withdrawn from their goals of making a nuclear bomb.

Translation: Israel decided not to attack Iran any time soon and felt the need to make it official.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2012, 02:56:10 PM »
Couldn't it also mean that Iran is no longer trying to make a nuclear bomb? Or is that too optimistic?

Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2012, 05:59:05 PM »
Couldn't it also mean that Iran is no longer trying to make a nuclear bomb? Or is that too optimistic?

You can be as optimistic as you want. I'm just trying to give you americans an insight as to what some headlines mean.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2012, 09:48:07 PM »
What I'm seeing is that they've pushed their bright line back 8-10 months.  According to their defense minister, they still think Iran is intent on building a bomb, but they've slowed the process down somewhat which buys Israel some time.  This was originally pretty close to Israel's moment of truth, and there are also a few stories about being pressured by us and France to back down.  There might be more going on behind the scenes than what we have to work with right now. 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #87 on: November 01, 2012, 12:20:24 AM »
That makes much more sense; I know there's Sandy and the election, but I would've thought Iran not pursuing a bomb would be bigger news.

Is this just a re-evaluation of the same information, or is it a change due to changing circumstances?

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #88 on: November 01, 2012, 08:16:08 AM »
My understanding is that Iran announced their intentions to use more of the uranium for energy purposes a few months ago.  That's what delayed their weapons program and gave Israel the option to sit tight for a while longer.  So it's a decision based on changes from a few months ago.  Like I said, I think there's a real possibility that they were gearing up and we talked them down for a while. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #89 on: November 01, 2012, 07:10:34 PM »
Yeah, I mean the Ottoman Empire controlling everything really was the only thing keeping everyone from constantly killing each other for centuries.

Not even, really.  The Ottomans spent the better part of the 16th and early 17th centuries fighting with Safavid Persia over Iraq, Syria and the Caucus.  The rivalry only began to die out in the late 1600's when the two powers began to face major threats from other eras (the Hapsburgs for the Ottomans in Europe, and the Uzbeks for the Safavids in Central Asia), and it only ended when the Safavid dynasty collapsed in the 1730's, at which point the Ottomans were also starting to decline under external pressure from Europeans and internal pressure from ethnic minorities.   

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #90 on: November 01, 2012, 07:22:43 PM »
Maybe so, but as consolidation goes, having an outside enemy usually helps, as the contemporary situation tends to show.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #91 on: November 01, 2012, 07:42:40 PM »
Maybe so, but as consolidation goes, having an outside enemy usually helps, as the contemporary situation tends to show.

Well, if you're talking about political "stability", then yeah, the Middle East was more stable in the Ottoman/Safavid days, but in terms of sheer violence, those wars were pretty damn bloody, and just because the region was divided into two major empires at the time probably didn't make it seem anymore peaceful to the multitudes who died in the battlefields of Iraq and Syria over the course of those centuries.


Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2012, 10:46:18 PM »
They always are planning expansions, but that is a horribly biased article. They've built thousands of homes in the past, but suddenly 500 is dramatic?
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2012, 10:52:01 PM »
Yes, that is quote from a Peace Now spokesman. I don't see how hat makes the article biased.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2012, 11:04:03 PM »
Yes, that is quote from a Peace Now spokesman. I don't see how hat makes the article biased.

Fine. The headline is biased.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2012, 04:18:53 PM »
So, with the recent events, we're entering another "you're the bad guy. No you're the bad guy!!" cycle of the Middle East.

Am I a bad person by saying I stopped caring a long time ago?
I can't wait until the time where renewable energies mean the Middle East is no longer propped up by our oil money.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2012, 04:32:02 PM »
Amen to that.
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2012, 04:53:34 PM »
So, with the recent events, we're entering another "you're the bad guy. No you're the bad guy!!" cycle of the Middle East.

Am I a bad person by saying I stopped caring a long time ago?
I can't wait until the time where renewable energies mean the Middle East is no longer propped up by our oil money.

More like "You killed our guy? WE'LL KILL YOUR GUY!" "You just killed our guy.....NOW WE KILL YOUR GUY" and this goes on till one of them decides to stop for a few months.

And I still don't think any of the Israeli Palestinian situation has to do with oil, nor does the American funding of Israel.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2012, 05:42:22 PM »
And I still don't think any of the Israeli Palestinian situation has to do with oil, nor does the American funding of Israel.

What I mean is, a lot of the money that keeps the machine going is based on the oil in the region. Look at Iran, for which oil exports constitute 80% of their economy. Where do you think they would be without that money? Probably trying to team up with the neighbors to get anywhere.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2012, 06:48:00 PM »
Adami is right, it has nothing to do with oil.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #101 on: November 14, 2012, 06:56:48 PM »
Adami is right, it has nothing to do with oil.


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At least on DTF.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2012, 08:16:35 PM »
Adami is right, it has nothing to do with oil.

The reasons for animosity may not be, but the ability to fight certainly is.




Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2012, 08:30:47 PM »
Adami is right, it has nothing to do with oil.

The reasons for animosity may not be, but the ability to fight certainly is.

Maybe on the Palestinian side. But still has nothing to do with America.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #104 on: November 14, 2012, 09:05:26 PM »
I didn't say America, though we do give the region a lot of money and weapons. Remember, we did arm Iran and Iraq in the 80's, and we still help arm a lot of people in the region. It's a pretty ludicrous statement to say that America isn't involved in the conflict, even if it isn't the reason for the hostility

And I'm not saying America can solve the problem, but it can probably help make it less of a problem, and that could help the people in the region solve the issues on their own. It's a very vicious cycle, and if it could become somewhat less vicious, perhaps it could end.