Author Topic: The Middle East Discussion Thread  (Read 30838 times)

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #140 on: November 15, 2012, 07:57:46 PM »
Resistance yes, but infrastructure? That's not something Hamas can provide. And as for the Zionist political leaders, they did become political leaders; they started taking on serious governance, with compromise and all that jazz. But let's not talk about leaders from almost seventy years ago; Arafat's refusal to become a viable partner ended a mere decade ago. Again, which is why I'm more in line with Fayyad.

And I cannot stress enough that I'm not trying to absolve Israel here; I'm just trying to set the record straight is all.
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #141 on: November 15, 2012, 08:14:08 PM »
20 bucks says the current war ends around January 22nd.


Just a guess ;).
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #142 on: November 15, 2012, 08:31:55 PM »
20 cacao beans it ends on December 21st.


Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #143 on: November 15, 2012, 08:35:26 PM »
20 cacao beans it ends on December 21st.

Touche my good man. Touche.


However don't be confused. Just because the world ends, doesn't mean the conflict will.
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Offline ResultsMayVary

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #144 on: November 15, 2012, 08:37:43 PM »
20 cacao beans it ends on December 21st.

Touche my good man. Touche.


However don't be confused. Just because the world ends, doesn't mean the conflict will.
The Israelis and Palestinians will find a way to continue the conflict.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #145 on: November 15, 2012, 08:38:57 PM »
I wouldn't say a misunderstanding of the conflict, but rather an incomplete understanding. There are so many angles to how this works out on the ground that no single viewpoint can ever fully encapsulate it. That's why this is the only place I ever make mention of it; I've all but given up discussing it IRL with people because everyone is either totally, uncompromisingly on the side of Israel or on that of Palestine. People who say both sides are at fault are halfway there, but it's become more of a lazy way of saying "I have no opinion" that still allows you to sound smart.

And while I hate to play this card... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Antisemitism

Which is not to say one can't be critical of Israel without that automatically making them anti-Semitic, the mainstream acceptance of criticizing Israel has become sort of a convenient veil in that regard. Kinda like how lambasting Obama's policies in the United States has become for closet racists.

Resistance yes, but infrastructure? That's not something Hamas can provide. And as for the Zionist political leaders, they did become political leaders; they started taking on serious governance, with compromise and all that jazz. But let's not talk about leaders from almost seventy years ago; Arafat's refusal to become a viable partner ended a mere decade ago. Again, which is why I'm more in line with Fayyad.

And I cannot stress enough that I'm not trying to absolve Israel here; I'm just trying to set the record straight is all.

I was gonna reply to that second post and talk about how nothing has changed and that time passing is irrelevant cause the means and the goals are the same, but then I noticed that other post from earlier which I haven't seen and I actually remembered there's no way to talk to you about this :lol, unbelievable.

By the way Progmetty, I've decided to call you Jihad Bob. I have no idea why, but I think it's because you're from Egypt and live in Texas, so I decided to mix all of it.

But I don't wanna be Jihad Bob! *in Jerry Seinfeld voice*
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Offline ResultsMayVary

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #146 on: November 15, 2012, 08:43:39 PM »
If you believe Hamas objective is to simply "Kill civilians" then you're way off. Again they are resisting the occupation with whatever means they can, you can't see the family that lives in your home as "a family", the innocence of civilians is a luxury in the case. That goes both ways and both sides know it.
True, but since Hamas broke a truce and then started firing rockets into Israel, I'm trying really hard not to facedesk at this situation. Hamas basically wants to destroy Israel. And hitting them with rockets will bring a counter attack right back at their doorstep. They know that, the world knows that. Hamas' stupidity is why we're in this situation right now.

What is the bull shit that we're taking out? that it's their resistance against the occupation? Cause if we take out that minor detail we can pretty much agree on everything else.
Another thing is what Hamas would go back to if they "cut the shit"? back to normal living in fun town Gaza?
I sincerely have no problem with Israel reoccupying, at least there would be no illusion of freedom there.
And for the record, I'm ignoring most of what happened before this conflict and am currently focused on what could have been done to avoid this situation. And it comes down to one thing:  Hamas started firing rockets and that lead to one thing and then to another, and here we are. That's the bullshit I'm referring to.

For the record again, it really bugs me how a lot of people, especially online (twitter, etc.), are painting the Palestinians and Hamas as the victims in this conflict. Are you fucking kidding me? The bullshit meter on that fact alone is off the charts. Everyone seems to ignore that Hamas has started this conflict, and Israel looks like they're trying to finish it. And I don't blame them. If someone was attacking my country, I would want my government doing everything they could to neutralize the threat. The Palestinians knew what they were doing when they elected Hamas. They can't stand up to Israel. Every time they fight, Israel issues a fucking beatdown.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #147 on: November 15, 2012, 09:01:51 PM »
I actually remembered there's no way to talk to you about this :lol, unbelievable.

Which is just a not very polite way of saying that the only reason you won't talk with me about it is because you disagree with me. Okay, cool.
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #148 on: November 15, 2012, 09:03:04 PM »
Come on guys, if the Israeli and Egyptian can get along, then so can the Egyptian and the American Jew.


Togetherness!
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #149 on: November 15, 2012, 09:04:50 PM »
Yeah, we'll see. And I'd like to point out that for an American Jew, I have a decidedly leftist view on the matter. I'm the one usually silenced in conversations for being too soft on the Palestinians IRL. Just sayin'.
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #150 on: November 15, 2012, 09:07:03 PM »
Yeah, we'll see. And I'd like to point out that for an American Jew, I have a decidedly leftist view on the matter. I'm the one usually silenced in conversations for being too soft on the Palestinians IRL. Just sayin'.

You cool bro. You cool.

You'll just have to make sure to visit me whenever you go to Israel next (provided it's after I moved).
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Online El Barto

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #151 on: November 15, 2012, 09:15:20 PM »
If you believe Hamas objective is to simply "Kill civilians" then you're way off. Again they are resisting the occupation with whatever means they can, you can't see the family that lives in your home as "a family", the innocence of civilians is a luxury in the case. That goes both ways and both sides know it.
True, but since Hamas broke a truce and then started firing rockets into Israel, I'm trying really hard not to facedesk at this situation. Hamas basically wants to destroy Israel. And hitting them with rockets will bring a counter attack right back at their doorstep. They know that, the world knows that. Hamas' stupidity is why we're in this situation right now.

What is the bull shit that we're taking out? that it's their resistance against the occupation? Cause if we take out that minor detail we can pretty much agree on everything else.
Another thing is what Hamas would go back to if they "cut the shit"? back to normal living in fun town Gaza?
I sincerely have no problem with Israel reoccupying, at least there would be no illusion of freedom there.
And for the record, I'm ignoring most of what happened before this conflict and am currently focused on what could have been done to avoid this situation. And it comes down to one thing:  Hamas started firing rockets and that lead to one thing and then to another, and here we are. That's the bullshit I'm referring to.

For the record again, it really bugs me how a lot of people, especially online (twitter, etc.), are painting the Palestinians and Hamas as the victims in this conflict. Are you fucking kidding me? The bullshit meter on that fact alone is off the charts. Everyone seems to ignore that Hamas has started this conflict, and Israel looks like they're trying to finish it. And I don't blame them. If someone was attacking my country, I would want my government doing everything they could to neutralize the threat. The Palestinians knew what they were doing when they elected Hamas. They can't stand up to Israel. Every time they fight, Israel issues a fucking beatdown.
While I think you're a little too gung-ho about it, I don't entirely disagree with you.  Even though I don't recognize Israel's right to exist, I wouldn't dispute it's right to defend itself since it's already there.  Furthermore, though I'm not privy to all of the details, it does seem like Hamas started this particular round.  Where I have a problem is the notion that one targets civvies and the other does not.  As has been pointed out several times, Hamas doesn't have much of an ability to target jack shit.  They can launch crude rockets and hope for the best.  Israel, on the other hand, has proven time and time again that they can be exceedingly discriminate in who or what they blow up.  They've also demonstrated just as often that they don't care enough to do so.  That's a choice.  What we usually see when this fires up every few years is overkill on a horrific scale,  by people who really have no excuse other than, as Adami pointed out, a complete indifference to Palestinian humanity.  Makes it really tough to defend their actions in any way, either. 
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #152 on: November 15, 2012, 09:30:23 PM »
So... Operation Pillar of Defense is "pillar of cloud" in Hebrew... *barf

Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #153 on: November 15, 2012, 09:35:44 PM »
So... Operation Pillar of Defense is "pillar of cloud" in Hebrew... *barf


You're adding so much to this convo.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #154 on: November 15, 2012, 09:43:13 PM »
I mean, 130 rockets sent to southern Israel in the past 3 days alone seems like a good enough reason to start an attack to me...

And there are people on the other side saying there are good reasons for 130 rockets being fired... reasons you probably aren't aware of because of how the media reports the conflict.

I'm perfectly aware of it; I've spent times on both ends of the political spectrum in terms of the conflict. But there should be a better way of responding to occupation than, y'know, flying rockets.

I wasn't talking about the occupation... I was talking about the cause for the recent escalation. Identifying any single trigger is probably arbitrary but the IDF's killing of a 13 yr old in Gaza on Nov. 8 is a better place to start than the rockets.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #155 on: November 15, 2012, 09:44:47 PM »
A retaliation to an immediate strike is a better place to start than the strike itself?

I mean, can we at least TRY to keep this discussion as unbiased as possible?
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #156 on: November 15, 2012, 09:53:30 PM »
My understanding is that the IDF invaded Gaza on Nov. 8 following a two-week lull in violence. Gunfire exchanged during this invasion ended up killing a boy playing soccer. So no, I'm not saying a retaliation is the place to start.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #157 on: November 15, 2012, 10:05:01 PM »
My understanding is that the IDF invaded Gaza on Nov. 8 following a two-week lull in violence. Gunfire exchanged during this invasion ended up killing a boy playing soccer. So no, I'm not saying a retaliation is the place to start.

My understanding is that following a lull, Gazans began firing rockets into Israel, prompting retaliatory airstrikes.

There was no invasion. Your last post shows complete bias on the situation. Israel responds to rockets with airstrikes and you interpret at "Israel randomly invades gaza and starts slaughtering children".

If you're going to post your nonsense in this thread, I'm out. I'll be back if you guys want to have a real discussion.
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Online El Barto

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #158 on: November 15, 2012, 10:16:56 PM »
While there's no confirmation that the IDF fragged the kid, they do appear to have been conducting operations within Gaza on the 8th.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/09/world/meast/gaza-violence/index.html
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #159 on: November 15, 2012, 10:24:40 PM »
Adami, you're implying that the shooting of the 13yr old happened during a process of Israelli retaliation against the more than 100 rockets before fired from Gaza, which is false. The 13yr old was killed on Nov. 8, the rockets were fired mostly between the 10th and 12th. So again, the rockets are an arbitrary place to start.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #160 on: November 15, 2012, 10:29:47 PM »
So what you're saying is that a 13 year old being shot in the head accidentally in a region with a crap load of people carrying around guns and doing who knows what on a daily basis is infinitely less likely than the Israeli army randomly deciding to assassinate a 13 year old using such precise means that they have not shown in the war with the Palestinians in over a decade?

So by that logic, if there's ever an explosion of unknown origin in southern Israel, then the army has every right to bomb the hell out of Gaza just in case it might have been them.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:39:45 PM by Adami »
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #161 on: November 15, 2012, 10:41:02 PM »
Not sure what you're implying, but when there's an escalation of rocket fire there's usually something that had incited the Palestinians to fire rockets in the first place is what I was trying to say.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #162 on: November 15, 2012, 10:42:53 PM »
Not sure what you're implying, but when there's an escalation of rocket fire there's usually something that had incited the Palestinians to fire rockets in the first place is what I was trying to say.

Or sometimes a few random people in Gaza feel like firing rockets, as has happened a bunch of times. It's not always a tightly organized group and now-adays Hamas usually isn't involved. But in Gaza, it's pretty damn easy for anyone to get weapons. The problem with that is all it takes is a 20 year old pissed off kid to start a war.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #163 on: November 15, 2012, 10:46:35 PM »
Yes, and they feel like firing rockets because they have been incited. That's not an alternative scenario. There's always a cause, it's not random.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #164 on: November 15, 2012, 10:47:41 PM »
Yes, and they feel like firing rockets because they have been incited. That's not an alternative scenario. There's always a cause, it's not random.

So by that logic, every thing that has happened in the area is completely Israels fault because the Palestinians never instigate violence.


Yea, I'm out. (for real this time). Let me know if you ever want to have a discussion that doesn't assume Israel is the devil or whatever.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #165 on: November 15, 2012, 10:50:12 PM »
Lol. Yea you should probably go because every time you say "by that logic" it has nothing to do with my point. You're arguing demons in your head.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #166 on: November 15, 2012, 11:02:44 PM »
Rathma, your posts appear inflammatory.   Knock it off
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 01:45:11 AM by yeshaberto »

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #167 on: November 16, 2012, 04:34:14 AM »
See what I mean?

Anyway, PM, I was not disputing what you said about the Haganah soldiers who became political leaders, although you'd be surprised to know none of them ever blew themselves up to kill Palestinians. My point wasn't about who they were before so much as what they became, and Arafat in my view failed to make that transition. That's why we got Camp David 2000. Salam Fayyad started out from a position of education and governance, so he's in a better position to be a political leader, to bargain for peace.
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Offline Tick

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #168 on: November 16, 2012, 06:07:38 AM »
If your a bible believing Christian, the scope of what is taking place right now is probably unsettling to you. If you are not, you probably won't see or care about the biblical implications of the escalation. Either way, its not a good thing for anyone and will have a major effect on all in the coming days if it gets worse.

http://www.seekingtruth.co.uk/middle_east.htm
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Online El Barto

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #169 on: November 16, 2012, 07:59:35 AM »
ITT, cognitive dissonance runs rampant.  Seems to happen every time the Israeli/Palestine subject gets fired up. 
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Offline antigoon

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #170 on: November 16, 2012, 08:32:55 AM »

And while I hate to play this card... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Antisemitism

Which is not to say one can't be critical of Israel without that automatically making them anti-Semitic, the mainstream acceptance of criticizing Israel has become sort of a convenient veil in that regard. Kinda like how lambasting Obama's policies in the United States has become for closet racists.

Wait, what? "Mainstream acceptance of criticizing Israel"? Where is this going on, because I haven't seen any of it. Definitely not in the establishment media, or our government, anywhere. 

Offline rumborak

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #171 on: November 16, 2012, 08:40:29 AM »
If your a bible believing Christian, the scope of what is taking place right now is probably unsettling to you. If you are not, you probably won't see or care about the biblical implications of the escalation. Either way, its not a good thing for anyone and will have a major effect on all in the coming days if it gets worse.

http://www.seekingtruth.co.uk/middle_east.htm

The domain name alone ... kinda gives away what the page is about.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #172 on: November 16, 2012, 09:54:03 AM »
If your a bible believing Christian, the scope of what is taking place right now is probably unsettling to you. If you are not, you probably won't see or care about the biblical implications of the escalation. Either way, its not a good thing for anyone and will have a major effect on all in the coming days if it gets worse.

http://www.seekingtruth.co.uk/middle_east.htm

Not all Christians think that the modern state named after the old kingdom are the same thing (although people who come up with names like "Operation Pillar of Cloud" seem to think they are). Dispensationalists are a minority even in the US.

Offline Tick

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #173 on: November 16, 2012, 10:09:39 AM »
If your a bible believing Christian, the scope of what is taking place right now is probably unsettling to you. If you are not, you probably won't see or care about the biblical implications of the escalation. Either way, its not a good thing for anyone and will have a major effect on all in the coming days if it gets worse.

http://www.seekingtruth.co.uk/middle_east.htm

The domain name alone ... kinda gives away what the page is about.
So?
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: The Middle East Discussion Thread
« Reply #174 on: November 16, 2012, 10:12:09 AM »
I actually remembered there's no way to talk to you about this :lol, unbelievable.

Which is just a not very polite way of saying that the only reason you won't talk with me about it is because you disagree with me. Okay, cool.

Didn't mean to come off as impolite and no we don't just disagree, I honestly believe you cannot possibly be convinced with a lot of what you say on this issue, it's like sometimes I can see your hand written notes on parts of your posts saying "Even I find this to be BS". But I fully understand where it comes from as you're super passionate about Israel and find it to be part of your identity, you bend objectivity, fact and basic logic to fit your argument here and sometimes I wonder whether you realize it or not. Again I'm sorry if I'm too blunt but you think it's just that I disagree with you and that's not how I feel about what we have here at all. I pretty much agree with you on a whole lot of issues away from this and find our political opinions close.

Yeah, we'll see. And I'd like to point out that for an American Jew, I have a decidedly leftist view on the matter. I'm the one usually silenced in conversations for being too soft on the Palestinians IRL. Just sayin'.

You have leftist views on the matter? SD I think you state your opinions on this subject elegantly and with neat political correctness and that's about as soft on Palestinians as you get here, your basic message is still "I hope we get to sit down to work things out with a civilized guy from their side and he'll do what makes us happy, otherwise he's an uncivilized terrorist". And I dunno who you're hanging out with who makes you feel too soft on Palestinians by contrast but they sound like a scary bunch to me, or a comedic uncle Leo from Seinfeld style bunch.

I mean, can we at least TRY to keep this discussion as unbiased as possible?

I think you're unbiased despite being part of the conflict, your views have been pretty fair about this and I think if people like you get a say in Israel things are going to be better.

See what I mean?

Anyway, PM, I was not disputing what you said about the Haganah soldiers who became political leaders, although you'd be surprised to know none of them ever blew themselves up to kill Palestinians. My point wasn't about who they were before so much as what they became, and Arafat in my view failed to make that transition. That's why we got Camp David 2000. Salam Fayyad started out from a position of education and governance, so he's in a better position to be a political leader, to bargain for peace.

"See what I mean?" is referring to what?
Uh they didn't blow themselves up to kill Palestinians because they had efficient weapons to do it without having to kill themselves. Blowing yourself up is an act that exists due to lack of other fighting options, it's desperation.
Arafat didn't make that transition because he never had a chance to, are you comparing your terrorists turned political leaders to a terrorist turned political leader without a country or an army or sufficient resources or lands or stabilized elected governments or world powers recognition? Irgun, Lehi and Haganah would have still been around in the form they were if it wasn't for all that which turned them into a "civilized" government and state officials.

If your a bible believing Christian, the scope of what is taking place right now is probably unsettling to you. If you are not, you probably won't see or care about the biblical implications of the escalation. Either way, its not a good thing for anyone and will have a major effect on all in the coming days if it gets worse.

http://www.seekingtruth.co.uk/middle_east.htm

The domain name alone ... kinda gives away what the page is about.

I had to go in and read anyway, I enjoy Wachowskis type of epic stuff.

I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.