Question for Christians

[Ħ]

Yeah I still think Eze 18 is pretty clear that we don't inherit the sins of our fathers.

[Cedar redaC]

I think that while sometimes we are affected by the sins of "our fathers", we are not held accountable for those sins. We are, however, held accountable for what we do in reaction.

A doctrine of my church is that "We believe that men are punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." (Articles of Faith 2)

(Note: The Articles of Faith are thirteen statements that were originally published in a newspaper in the early days of the church. They came about after Joseph Smith was asked to describe the fundamental doctrines and principles of the church. They are found here.)

[Zook]

Seems to me that adam's sin is nothing more than a guilt trip to get people to accept jesus as their lord and savior.

[theseoafs]

Seems to me that adam's sin is nothing more than a guilt trip to get people to accept jesus as their lord and savior.

In so many words, yeah.  Even if you didn't do anything wrong, Adam did, so you still need Jesus.

[Cedar redaC]

"Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy"
-2 Nephi 2:25

Through this we see a couple of things: unless Adam fell, men could not be. To put it simply, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, they could not have children and this stated, the fall of Adam somehow allowed them to bear children. This let their children, and all children since, be born into an imperfect world, where they could be presented with the choice of both good and evil and the opportunity to choose.

[Adami]

Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians...

[Cedar redaC]

 


George Takei just took this thread to the next generation!

I know he wasn't on The Next Generation, but the joke was too good to just go to waste

[yeshaberto]

Romans 5 says that death spread to all men BECAUSE of Adami. 

I like this better.

great.  now every time I see a statement about "Adam" I am seeing "Adami"

[Adami]

Romans 5 says that death spread to all men BECAUSE of Adami. 

I like this better.

great.  now every time I see a statement about "Adam" I am seeing "Adami"

And so it begins.

[yeshaberto]

adami blew it for everyone.  yeshua fixed it for everyone.

[Adami]

adami blew it for everyone.  yeshua fixed it for everyone.

Still okay with this, despite thinking that original sin is a terrible interpretation of what happened with me and Eve.

[jammindude]

"Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy"
-2 Nephi 2:25

Through this we see a couple of things: unless Adam fell, men could not be. To put it simply, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, they could not have children and this stated, the fall of Adam somehow allowed them to bear children. This let their children, and all children since, be born into an imperfect world, where they could be presented with the choice of both good and evil and the opportunity to choose.

The command to procreate was given before original sin...obviously it just hadn't happened yet.

[Ħ]

Yeah that's just weird. Sex within marriage has always been a good thing, even before Adam and Eve's fall.

[rumborak]

I have made that argument before, but how was Jesus' death a sacrifice? He never lost anything, him being part of Godhead. The only way it makes sense to me is if Jesus was 100% human, because then it was actually a sacrifice. Which would make Matthew 27:46 fall into place too.

[eric42434224]

I just dont get any of that sacrifice and original sin stuff....never made any sense to me.

A god wouldnt burden an innocent with a long dead relatives bad deeds.
A god wouldnt need to send his son to die to remove our sins....he has the power to do that all by himself any time he wants.
A god isnt sacrificing the life of his son if he raises him from the dead 3 days later.

You have to suspend common sense to believe this stuff.

[Ħ]

A god wouldnt burden an innocent with a long dead relatives bad deeds.

Agreed.

A god wouldnt need to send his son to die to remove our sins....he has the power to do that all by himself any time he wants.

Acting from His just nature, someone had to be punished.

A god isnt sacrificing the life of his son if he raises him from the dead 3 days later.

The sacrifice is in Jesus' death and is wholly apart and for purposes of this discussion unrelated to His resurrection.

[eric42434224]

If he had to punish someone to stay in his "just" nature, then he should have punished Adam and Eve only.  It is against a "just" nature to punish an innocent.

[Zook]

Wasn't Adam punished?

[Ħ]

Yes to both of the above. I can't recall any place in the bible where God punishes an innocent.

[Cedar redaC]

"Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy"
-2 Nephi 2:25

Through this we see a couple of things: unless Adam fell, men could not be. To put it simply, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, they could not have children and this stated, the fall of Adam somehow allowed them to bear children. This let their children, and all children since, be born into an imperfect world, where they could be presented with the choice of both good and evil and the opportunity to choose.

The command to procreate was given before original sin...obviously it just hadn't happened yet.

That's just the great paradox isn't it? When in the Garden, God gave Adam and Eve two commandments: Multiply and replenish the earth, and don't partake of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. But they couldn't procreate unless they partook of the fruit. With Adam's transgression, they were able to have children and fulfill God's commandments. They were able to die as well, but that was another step in their eternal progression that would have been impossible without the partaking of the fruit.

[Cedar redaC]

A god wouldn't need to send his son to die to remove our sins....he has the power to do that all by himself any time he wants.

Consider this: A man invokes a large debt to be paid at a later date. When that day arrives and the creditor is unable to be paid, the law states that the debtor must be taken to debtor's prison. The debtor pleads with his creditor to give him more time or in some other way let him pay the debt so he doesn't go to prison and lose all that he has. The creditor feels sorry for him, but the contract demands payment in full or the debtor must go to prison. One demands justice, the other mercy. To appease both, their must be a third party, the mediator. This man, a good friend of the debtor, knowing that the debtor was short-sighted and didn't think things through, pays the debt for his friend. The mediator requires that the debtor pay him back, stating that while it won't be easy, it will be possible. This appeases justice, since the creditor received full payment, and mercy because the debtor got a second chance and another opportunity to pay his debt.

Let's say that we are the debtor, imperfect and with lot of sins on our account. God, the creditor, loves us, but he can't let any sinful creature into his kingdom. Jesus Christ steps in, a perfect man with no debt who loves us and is able to pay the debt. He agrees to "pay our debt" by atoning for our sins. All we must do is agree to do as he says. Through this, we see that we can repent of our sins through Christ.

Our sins can't be immediately removed because the law of justice would be left unfulfilled. Only through Christ's atonement can we fulfill the law of justice and still be able to live with him again.

[eric42434224]

A god wouldn't need to send his son to die to remove our sins....he has the power to do that all by himself any time he wants.

Consider this: A man invokes a large debt to be paid at a later date. When that day arrives and the creditor is unable to be paid, the law states that the debtor must be taken to debtor's prison. The debtor pleads with his creditor to give him more time or in some other way let him pay the debt so he doesn't go to prison and lose all that he has. The creditor feels sorry for him, but the contract demands payment in full or the debtor must go to prison. One demands justice, the other mercy. To appease both, their must be a third party, the mediator. This man, a good friend of the debtor, knowing that the debtor was short-sighted and didn't think things through, pays the debt for his friend. The mediator requires that the debtor pay him back, stating that while it won't be easy, it will be possible. This appeases justice, since the creditor received full payment, and mercy because the debtor got a second chance and another opportunity to pay his debt.

Let's say that we are the debtor, imperfect and with lot of sins on our account. God, the creditor, loves us, but he can't let any sinful creature into his kingdom. Jesus Christ steps in, a perfect man with no debt who loves us and is able to pay the debt. He agrees to "pay our debt" by atoning for our sins. All we must do is agree to do as he says. Through this, we see that we can repent of our sins through Christ.

Our sins can't be immediately removed because the law of justice would be left unfulfilled. Only through Christ's atonement can we fulfill the law of justice and still be able to live with him again.

HORRIBLE analogy.  The debtor is Adam and Eve, not us.  We do not need a mediator because we are not the debtor.  God should have sent Jesus to die for Adam and Eve...problem solved.  We should not have been involved at all.

[theseoafs]

If the creditor felt sorry for the debtor and didn't want to force the debtor to pay off the debt immediately, then he could have just chosen not to collect the debt.  There's no reason another person has to get involved.

[Cedar redaC]

A god wouldn't need to send his son to die to remove our sins....he has the power to do that all by himself any time he wants.

Consider this: A man invokes a large debt to be paid at a later date. When that day arrives and the creditor is unable to be paid, the law states that the debtor must be taken to debtor's prison. The debtor pleads with his creditor to give him more time or in some other way let him pay the debt so he doesn't go to prison and lose all that he has. The creditor feels sorry for him, but the contract demands payment in full or the debtor must go to prison. One demands justice, the other mercy. To appease both, their must be a third party, the mediator. This man, a good friend of the debtor, knowing that the debtor was short-sighted and didn't think things through, pays the debt for his friend. The mediator requires that the debtor pay him back, stating that while it won't be easy, it will be possible. This appeases justice, since the creditor received full payment, and mercy because the debtor got a second chance and another opportunity to pay his debt.

Let's say that we are the debtor, imperfect and with lot of sins on our account. God, the creditor, loves us, but he can't let any sinful creature into his kingdom. Jesus Christ steps in, a perfect man with no debt who loves us and is able to pay the debt. He agrees to "pay our debt" by atoning for our sins. All we must do is agree to do as he says. Through this, we see that we can repent of our sins through Christ.

Our sins can't be immediately removed because the law of justice would be left unfulfilled. Only through Christ's atonement can we fulfill the law of justice and still be able to live with him again.

HORRIBLE analogy.  The debtor is Adam and Eve, not us.  We do not need a mediator because we are not the debtor.  God should have sent Jesus to die for Adam and Eve...problem solved.  We should not have been involved at all.

We sin too. Adam's transgression isn't the only time someone has ever done something wrong. In fact, since everyone except for Christ has sinned at some point in their lives, we all need it.

[eric42434224]

If the creditor felt sorry for the debtor and didn't want to force the debtor to pay off the debt immediately, then he could have just chosen not to charge the debt.  There's no reason another person has to get involved.

Regardless, there is no reason to get US involved.  If god needs to be "just", then punish adam & eve, or have JC die for them.  No reason to pin a sin on innocents. 

[Cedar redaC]

If the creditor felt sorry for the debtor and didn't want to force the debtor to pay off the debt immediately, then he could have just chosen not to collect the debt.  There's no reason another person has to get involved.

That's what the contract said though, debt X must be paid by day Y. To extend the contract would have been to violate justice.

[Cedar redaC]

If the creditor felt sorry for the debtor and didn't want to force the debtor to pay off the debt immediately, then he could have just chosen not to charge the debt.  There's no reason another person has to get involved.

Regardless, there is no reason to get US involved.  If God needs to be "just", then punish adam & eve, or have JC die for them.  No reason to pin a sin on innocents.

Again, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." (Article of Faith 2) We are accountable for our sins, not Adam's. We need the atonement for our sins.

[eric42434224]

If the creditor felt sorry for the debtor and didn't want to force the debtor to pay off the debt immediately, then he could have just chosen not to collect the debt.  There's no reason another person has to get involved.

That's what the contract said though, debt X must be paid by day Y. To extend the contract would have been to violate justice.

Then adam and eve should have, and were, punished.  What does that have to do with the innocent decendants?

[eric42434224]

If the creditor felt sorry for the debtor and didn't want to force the debtor to pay off the debt immediately, then he could have just chosen not to charge the debt.  There's no reason another person has to get involved.

Regardless, there is no reason to get US involved.  If God needs to be "just", then punish adam & eve, or have JC die for them.  No reason to pin a sin on innocents.

Again, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." We are accountable for our sins, not Adam's. We need the atonement for our sins.

Then why are we not allowed to pay for our own sins?  Why are we not allowed the full length of our contract to pay our debt?  Why must the mediator die thousands of years ago, and before when our term to repay our debt has not ended yet?

[Cedar redaC]

Then adam and eve should have, and were, punished.  What does that have to do with the innocent decendants?

They were punished for their sins and we will be punished for ours.

[eric42434224]

Then adam and eve should have, and were, punished.  What does that have to do with the innocent decendants?

They were punished for their sins and we will be punished for ours.

Then why is jesus required?

[Cedar redaC]

Then adam and eve should have, and were, punished.  What does that have to do with the innocent decendants?

They were punished for their sins and we will be punished for ours.

Then why is jesus required?

As the "Mediator", Jesus suffered for our sins so we wouldn't be punished because of our inability to pay.

[theseoafs]

Except no because there was no good reason for God to punish anybody.

[Scorpion]

Then adam and eve should have, and were, punished.  What does that have to do with the innocent decendants?

They were punished for their sins and we will be punished for ours.

Then why is jesus required?

As the "Mediator", Jesus suffered for our sins so we wouldn't be punished because of our inability to pay.

Why are we expected to pay for sins that haven't occurred yet?

[Cedar redaC]

Except no because there was no good reason for God to punish anybody.

What do you mean?

We sin, so we are in danger of being punished.