Serious question on what to do in this situation.

[Orbert]

You're in a public place, and there are rules to be followed.  They aren't following the rules, and it affects everybody, but nobody wants to make a fuss.  This leaves the unruly ones to pretty much do whatever they want.  Maybe it's not about winning and losing in the regular sense, but it is about trying not to let this type of thing get out of hand.  Or are you okay with just letting people walk all over you whenever it suits them, because you don't want to make a scene?

If you just walk away, you might as well write off that area as a place to study, and it's clearly supposed to be a place to study.  Next week, they'll be back, with some of their friends.  Eventually there will be no more quiet places to study, because no one ever felt like standing up to people who clearly can't follow the rules.  Or you could stand up to them.

[Adami]

I said walk away if they make a big scene after you tell (politely) to be quiet. If you start a public fight with them, you're actually making things worse for everybody there, and are likely to get kicked out.

And to help, on his way out he can tell people of authority about it. I see no reason why getting into a yelling match with them will help.

[Orbert]

Maybe I misunderstood, then.  Walk away and... what?  Walk away and find a library staff member to deal with them?  Walk back to the table and attempt to continue studying with the racket?  I took "walk away" to mean basically leave the area, give up on that spot because there are some unruly people there and no one will call them on it.

[Adami]

Maybe I misunderstood, then.  Walk away and... what?  Walk away and find a library staff member to deal with them?  Walk back to the table and attempt to continue studying with the racket?  I took "walk away" to mean basically leave the area, give up on that spot because there are some unruly people there and no one will call them on it.

Heh, I edited my post it seems as you typed yours.

[TioJorge]

Just kill them.


Done and done.

[Cedar redaC]

That escalated quickly!

[Orbert]

Maybe I misunderstood, then.  Walk away and... what?  Walk away and find a library staff member to deal with them?  Walk back to the table and attempt to continue studying with the racket?  I took "walk away" to mean basically leave the area, give up on that spot because there are some unruly people there and no one will call them on it.

Heh, I edited my post it seems as you typed yours.

Sneaky.  Leaving, but also telling someone who can do something about it, is a reasonable plan, I guess.



Or just kill them.

[Adami]

Well obviously killing them is the main option. I just figured that to be so obvious that Chino was seeking a back up plan in case his sword fails in battle (as it has so often in the past).

[mrjazzguitar]

man I run into this kind of crap in New York all the time, especially trains. I'm actually one of the those people that stands up tells people to shut the fuck up. Or step into the train and let more people on. Stop harassing that girl that is minding her own business. Etc.

Sounds like you just need to go to a better school. There will be fewer black people.

[Ħ]

Sounds like you just need to go to a better school. There will be fewer black people.

Boom, there it is.

[theseoafs]

Sounds like you just need to go to a better school. There will be fewer black people.

Ouch.

[Marion Crane]

The only racist portion of your post is that you felt the need to point out that they are black. Ignorant is ignorant. Race has nothing to do with being an asshole, as everyone is capable of it. Tell'em to shut the fuck up. Simple as that.

I love how pointing out that they are black automatically makes it racist. Net even close.

[theseoafs]

Pointing out they were black was a bit racist, yeah.  Especially considering their races weren't relevant to the story whatsoever.

[Implode]

But it was relevant. I interpreted that a reason Chino was reluctant to confront them was the fact that they were black. The confirmation and biases and stereotypes associated with conflicts and blacks affected him psychologically even though he knows it's illogical. That's why he came on here to get some reassurance.

[theseoafs]

I mean, I'm not judging the guy.  It is what it is.  He knew he was racially profiling, and he said exactly that much in the OP.  But yeah, he was being a bit racist, and it's rather silly to suggest that Chino "wasn't even close".

[Cedar redaC]

I mean, I'm not judging the guy. It is what it is.  He knew he was racially profiling, and he said exactly that much in the OP.  But yeah, he was being a bit racist, and it's rather silly to suggest that Chino "wasn't even close".

... and whatever, time is still the infinite jest....

[Marion Crane]

Pointing out someone is black in order to tell a story isn't even remotely close to racist. If a movie audition calls for a "thugged out black guy" or a "Mexican drug dealer" does that make the script writer racist? Not at all. One of the biggest problems with racism in this country is that most people don't even know what the word "racist" means. In no way was his mentioning the girls were black imply that whatever race he is is superior.

[Orbert]

I took it as a bit of detail to help us visualize the situation.  He could have just said that it was two girls, and we would have pictured two girls.  If he'd said they were tall, short, ugly, pretty, black, white, etc., that's just extra detail.

He also said right up front that he felt that it was probably racist to even mention it.  But there is definitely a stereotype, and to be honest, I found the additional detail to be helpful in understanding the situation.

[Marion Crane]

^^^ this guy. Words like stereo type or prejudice would fit better than racist in probably atleast 80% of the time the word is used.

[MykeHavoc]

Have you ever lived in the south, Myke? I've heard numerous northerners who've moved to New Orleans specifically mention how severely more rude and dickish ghetto types are down here than up north and these weren't uppity or predisposed-to-prejudice types either, just regular everyday folks with no apparent agenda. I'm not crazy about saying it like that either but there is a MAJOR difference in exactly how trashy folks get from one region to another apparently. Also, the trailer trash down here (primarily white folks) is probably much more uncouth than what you might get in Canada for instance.

To set the record straight, by "ghetto" I mean trashy folks, not black people in general.

Nah, born, raised and currently residing in New England. Perhaps it is a regional thing. We've got just as many ignorant, trashy types among all races up here.

But it was relevant. I interpreted that a reason Chino was reluctant to confront them was the fact that they were black. The confirmation and biases and stereotypes associated with conflicts and blacks affected him psychologically even though he knows it's illogical. That's why he came on here to get some reassurance.

From that perspective, it makes more sense. But his initial fear was that we'd take his comment as racist. Jumping to that defense so quickly (as in within the thread title) makes it easy to misread what he's worrying about.

I love how pointing out that they are black automatically makes it racist. Net even close.

I've always felt that bringing up race at any point when it has no bearing is racist
(i.e. some black guy hits your car, or a Jew stiffs you on a check etc). I'm not exempt from it. Just making an observation.
And yes, I'm aware of words like generalization or stereotype. But it still qualifies as racist.

[Nel]

Just kill them.


Done and done.

Yep. No person, no problem. 

[theseoafs]

stereo type or prejudice

Stereotyping or engaging in prejudice based on the color of another's skin is absolutely racist.  That's pretty much the definition of racism.

[Marion Crane]

Most of you must not be from the south then. I've lived in Florida most of my life. I also lived in Chicago for 2 years. It was amazing to me how different the definitions of racism were in separate parts of the country. My girlfriend at the time thought I was a "racist homophobe", which was ironic at the time because my best friend in Chicago was a gay black dude. Lol.

PS- Does me mentioning that my best friend in Chicago was a gay black dude make me a racist homophobe?

[Ħ]

stereo type or prejudice

Stereotyping or engaging in prejudice based on the color of another's skin is absolutely racist.  That's pretty much the definition of racism.

Stereotypes have some degree of truth, though. Have you found in your experience that white girls and black girls are equally loud? I doubt it.

[MykeHavoc]

Most of you must not be from the south then. I've lived in Florida most of my life. I also lived in Chicago for 2 years. It was amazing to me how different the definitions of racism were in separate parts of the country. My girlfriend at the time thought I was a "racist homophobe", which was ironic at the time because my best friend in Chicago was a gay black dude. Lol.

PS- Does me mentioning that my best friend in Chicago was a gay black dude make me a racist homophobe?

No. His race and orientation is relevant to the point you were making. See how that works?

stereo type or prejudice

Stereotyping or engaging in prejudice based on the color of another's skin is absolutely racist.  That's pretty much the definition of racism.

Stereotypes have some degree of truth, though. Have you found in your experience that white girls and black girls are equally loud? I doubt it.

That's incredibly presumptuous. And racist. Simple as that.

[theseoafs]

^Yep.

[Ħ]

We live life based on presumptions. It's human. And smart.

[Marion Crane]

What's funny is that I let 3 of my black friends read this, one being female. They all agreed that people are just way too sensitive when it comes to race. Even my female black friend (who is extraordinarily loud during horror movies and is standing right here watching me type this), when she read about 2 black girls in a quiet library said it loud "oh hell, I know where this is going."

What's sad is that we live in a country where someone needed to post in DTF, asking if it would be ok to ask 2 black girls in a library to be quiet.

And we all know why.

[Ben_Jamin]

Oh black and Latin ghetto girls are the most fearless type of person. The "Whateva I do wat I want"mentality, now the best solution to this is to leave, Let whoever is in charge of the library know people are being DISRESPECTFUL.

If you think about it, they mentally bullied you to leave. Just stand up for yourself, and you should know when its time to be wise and leave.

[kári]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QciMsJipzHQ

[robwebster]

What's funny is that I let 3 of my black friends read this, one being female. They all agreed that people are just way too sensitive when it comes to race. Even my female black friend (who is extraordinarily loud during horror movies and is standing right here watching me type this), when she read about 2 black girls in a quiet library said it loud "oh hell, I know where this is going."

What's sad is that we live in a country where someone needed to post in DTF, asking if it would be ok to ask 2 black girls in a library to be quiet.

And we all know why.

I think the issue is more that he had to mention they were black at all.

Why does that change the story? Why does our attitude to these people change if they're black? "Two girls are being loud in the library. They're really pissing me off." If he were writing Lord of the Rings, then great - describe in as much detail as possible. But boiled down to the details, why is that one meant to change the etiquette? Bit of an attitude? Sure! Loudmouth? Right on! Hell - even ghetto culture tells you a bit about who they are.

The problem people have isn't noticing that they're black, it's treating them differently than if they were white. "If they were white girls, I'd be all over this, but confronted by two Ebony Strangers I felt I should ask some progressive rock fans." Notice, sure. Mention, sure. But making a big deal... they're just humans! If they're troublemakers, it's because they're surly ghetto loudmouths. Not because they've been racially identified as "CAUTION: black ladies." And yet he felt obliged to mention it - attributed their actions very clearly, and very specifically to their race. Repeatedly. That's equating who they are with what they are. Not a prejudice in this case - more a postjudice - but it's how prejudices linger. Hurts honest people in the long run.

Not that I think you're being malicious at all, Chino! Racial issues are quite understandably a hotbed, and you've clearly got the best of intentions, trying to tiptoe across what's often a minefield. I just don't think their races were particularly crucial information. q:

[Chino]

What's funny is that I let 3 of my black friends read this, one being female. They all agreed that people are just way too sensitive when it comes to race. Even my female black friend (who is extraordinarily loud during horror movies and is standing right here watching me type this), when she read about 2 black girls in a quiet library said it loud "oh hell, I know where this is going."

What's sad is that we live in a country where someone needed to post in DTF, asking if it would be ok to ask 2 black girls in a library to be quiet.

And we all know why.

I think the issue is more that he had to mention they were black at all.

Why does that change the story? Why does our attitude to these people change if they're black? "Two girls are being loud in the library. They're really pissing me off."

Not that I think you're being malicious at all, Chino! Racial issues are quite understandably a hotbed, and you've clearly got the best of intentions, trying to tiptoe across what's often a minefield. I just don't think their races were particularly crucial information. q:

I described them as black because it got my point across. You all have, process, and take into account stereotypes on a daily basis, whether you act on them or not. By me saying they were lack, you all knew EXACTLY what I was dealing with and why I was unsure how to handle it. I bet if I left out the hood and the black comments, many of your replies would have been to politely ask them to quiet down. But by saying they were hood and black, I received many comments to just go straight to the people in charge. I didn't interpret that as racism, and I feel as though there was nothing even remotely racist about what I said.

Where do you draw the line with descriptions? Had I said "two girls" instead of "two black girls", wouldn't that have been at the least sexist? If you keep breaking it down to something that no one would find offensive, I would have had to say "two humans" or "two other students". No one would know what I was talking about then, and I would have had to end up explaining 

[yorost]

You got many responses to either do it yourself or get someone in charge, not to just go get someone in charge.  Really, what kind of response did you want?  They're obvious solutions to a simple problem.  I bet any skewing towards getting someone in charge is more due to you saying you didn't want to do it yourself rather than your racial description.  you looked racist, not the people responding to you.

[Ryzee]

What would have been wrong with: "Hey you guys there's these people being really loud and obnoxious in the library right now where people are trying to study.  I want to go ask them to quiet down but I'd imagine that people who are already being loud and obnoxious in a library aren't too concerned with how what they are doing is affecting others so I doubt I'll get a lot of cooperation from them.  What should I do instead?"

[Ħ]

Saying three long sentences vs saying "black ghetto girls"